Gender dysphoria?

[Listener]

For years the radical women in the Women’s Liberation Movement were telling us that there IS no difference between men and women. They claimed that anything a man can do a woman can also do.

So now these same radical people are saying that gender is in your brain? Why would they even think that when they believe that there is no difference between men and women?

Also, what is a woman supposed to feel like in a woman’s body? I’m a woman, and i don’t have a clue. And, of course, I also have no idea what a man is supposed to feel like in a man’s body.

It would be nice to have a better understanding of this mysterious ailment.

 

[Rau]

For years the radical women in the Women’s Liberation Movement were telling us that there IS no difference between men and women. They claimed that anything a man can do a woman can also do.

While that movement is not something I have much familiarity with, was that not about things like equal access to education and careers, and later, the (wrong) claim to abortion rights, etc. I’m pretty sure bra burning had nothing to do with wanting to be rid of breasts.

So now these same radical people are saying that gender is in your brain?

Who said it is the same people? I don’t think there is much of a connection.

Why would they even think that when they believe that there is no difference between men and women?

One’s sex (or gender, I don’t really distinguish these words) is expressed throughout out bodies, including the brain. That seems a pretty natural idea to me.

Also, what is a woman supposed to feel like in a woman’s body? I’m a woman, and i don’t have a clue. And, of course, I also have no idea what a man is supposed to feel like in a man’s body.

It would be nice to have a better understanding of this mysterious ailment.

That’s for sure. I cannot imagine what would cause me (a man) to want to have surgery on my genitals. The thought is horrifying. Yet that is the experience of some.

 

[Rin]

For years the radical women in the Women’s Liberation Movement were telling us that there IS no difference between men and women. They claimed that anything a man can do a woman can also do.

So now these same radical people are saying that gender is in your brain? Why would they even think that when they believe that there is no difference between men and women?

The common idea that transgenderism has anything to do with feminism and gender deconstructionism is, sadly, a confusion. As Rau (if I understood correctly) indicated, the groups are not the same.

That gender identity is a neurological phenomenon is not fronted by any ideology, but by research. Studies (originally dissection of deceased brains, later through brain imaging) have demonstrated significant differences between male and female brains, and that brains of trans women are closer to the female brain than the male. The accuracy of the autopsy study was 100% in predicting a transgender identity.

A later study indicates that there is a difference between trans women who are sexually attracted to males (the women in the first studies were all in this group), and those who are attracted to females. The condition seems to be differently caused in the two groups. However, this study also clearly establishes a neurological cause for the latter group.

Obviously, this conflicts with the common view among feminists that gender identity and gendered behavior are merely societal constructions. For this reason, many radical feminists vehemently oppose transgender people, and reject these findings. In many ways, this research on transgender people confirms Catholic teaching about the complementarity of the sexes; obviously this is unacceptable to radical feminists.

Mainstream feminism has however adjusted their views as a result of this research. But as with all ideology, the most extreme adherents will ignore or reject anything that conflicts with their view. Ironically, in this case, it has the same outcome among radical feminists and radical conservatives . I also often even see the groups utilizing the same arguments, which is kind of entertaining.

Also, what is a woman supposed to feel like in a woman’s body? I’m a woman, and i don’t have a clue. And, of course, I also have no idea what a man is supposed to feel like in a man’s body.

This is a good question, which has sadly caused much confusion also among those who treat transgender people.

I think the best, and most universal, description of gender dysphoria is the unbearable turmoil caused by the body’s sex characteristics. The brain expects one type of sex hormones; when the opposite is produced by the gonads, turmoil ensues. Its presentation is often a strong dislike for one’s sexual characteristics, with a strong need to change them, and with a strong tendency to depression and anxiety (or worse) if no treatment is given. Dissociative symptoms like depersonalization are also common. The condition is disabling, and in some cases sadly fatal because of suicide risk. Hormone therapy has incredible effects in such patients - I know of cases where the patient had ended up with several, severe psychiatric diagnoses prior to receiving treatment for gender dysphoria, and could quit taking their cocktails of psychiatric drugs after a while on cross-sex hormones.

As to gendered behavior, yes, most patients report feeling inclined towards typical interests and behaviors of the opposite sex (I find “opposite sex” to be too simple here, but I’ll use it for the sake of simplicity), towards the clothing of the opposite sex, and so on. These are however incidental, and to some extent societally determined; what is feminine and what is masculine changes depending on time and culture. It probably has to do with naturally identifying with the girls instead of the boys (or the other way around), thus copying the “wrong” inclinations. But to some extent, interests seem to be “hard coded” - it has been demonstrated in behavioral studies that toddlers who are not “conditioned” in any way will normally, seemingly on instinct, choose toy cars and trucks if they are boys, and dolls if they are girls. Consequently, some inclinations are apparently caused by brain structure. Transgender patients are commonly reported to have “chosen the wrong toys” even as toddlers.

However, not everyone is stereotypically feminine or masculine. Traditionally, diagnosis has focused too much on these stereotypes, causing many patients who truly needed treatment to be denied such, often ending in tragedy. Just as among cis people, interests and behaviors fall within the whole spectrum of gender expression. In rare cases, patients feel fine just by taking hormones without transitioning socially. Generally, however, some level of change of expression and social role is required - everything from just appearing androgynous, to full transition.

It would be nice to have a better understanding of this mysterious ailment.

There are plenty of sources online, but a good place to start is the WPATH Standards of Care. It may not include as much about causes for the condition, since it is largely a guideline document for treatment, but it describes the spectrum of how gender dysphoria presents, and the different levels of treatment, well. If I remember correctly, it also has a lot of citations to studies more directly linked to causation and so on.

Other than that there’s a wealth of studies, books and so on. I don’t have any links available from where I’m at, but if you Google around a bit, you should find a lot of material. But again, I’d recommend starting with the SoC - it is the universal guideline for those who treat transgenderism, and as such a great place to start.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

For years the radical women in the Women’s Liberation Movement were telling us that there IS no difference between men and women. They claimed that anything a man can do a woman can also do.

So now these same radical people are saying that gender is in your brain? Why would they even think that when they believe that there is no difference between men and women?

Also, what is a woman supposed to feel like in a woman’s body? I’m a woman, and i don’t have a clue. And, of course, I also have no idea what a man is supposed to feel like in a man’s body.

It would be nice to have a better understanding of this mysterious ailment.

Quite a few of the people who claim that there is no difference between men and women are still TERFs.

While that movement is not something I have much familiarity with, was that not about things like equal access to education and careers, and later, the (wrong) claim to abortion rights, etc. I’m pretty sure bra burning had nothing to do with wanting to be rid of breasts.

Who said it is the same people? I don’t think there is much of a connection.

One’s sex (or gender, I don’t really distinguish these words) is expressed throughout out bodies, including the brain. That seems a pretty natural idea to me.

Also, what is a woman supposed to feel like in a woman’s body? ** I’m a woman,** and i don’t have a clue. And, of course, I also have no idea what a man is supposed to feel like in a man’s body.

That’s for sure. I cannot imagine what would cause me (a man) to want to have surgery on my genitals. The thought is horrifying. Yet that is the experience of some.

Do you identify as a man or a woman?

 

[Rau]

Do you identify as a man or a woman?

Most of what is quoted as coming from me did not - perhaps you made an error in posting. Was there a question for me in there?

 

[Rin]

Most of what is quoted as coming from me did not - perhaps you made an error in posting. Was there a question for me in there?

In the post Joie quoted, you seem to have left this sentence from Listener outside quote tags:

“Also, what is a woman supposed to feel like in a woman’s body? I’m a woman, and i don’t have a clue. And, of course, I also have no idea what a man is supposed to feel like in a man’s body.”

So it looks like you wrote this, and then went on to say you’re a man in the next sentence. I have to admit I wondered about this too, until I realized that the sentence above was not written by you

 

[InSearchofGrace]

For years the radical women in the Women’s Liberation Movement were telling us that there IS no difference between men and women. They claimed that anything a man can do a woman can also do.

So now these same radical people are saying that gender is in your brain? Why would they even think that when they believe that there is no difference between men and women?

Also, what is a woman supposed to feel like in a woman’s body? I’m a woman, and i don’t have a clue. And, of course, I also have no idea what a man is supposed to feel like in a man’s body.

You had a thoughtful response from Rau.

It would be nice to have a better understanding of this mysterious ailment.

Indeed, it would be nice to have a better understanding of transgenderism. Why would 1% of males want to have their testes castrated and their penis inverted, and why would less than 1% of females rather see a phallus in place of their female organ?

It is understandable to first investigate genetic and biological causes, but advocates and defenders of SRS seem ready to put weight on arguable research results supposedly reached by consensus.

There are medical problems that still elude understanding notwithstanding the advanced state of science and technology. There are several mental conditions even harder to understand. Why? How? What to do? Theories and researches are put forth, trial and error attempted, leading to competing professional opinions. Opinions are often colored and influenced by groups to which mental health practitioners are beholden, or from where they fear criticism.

Not long ago, the APA removed gender identity disorder, or the disorder that occurs when a man thinks he is a woman or a woman thinks she is a man. Instead, the term has been replaced by gender dysphoria, or the negative feelings that occur when a person does not accept the gender he or she was assigned at birth. Instead of helping the person alter his view of his own sex, increasingly, the recommended treatment for gender dysphoria is to physically change the person’s anatomy in order to match the sex he thinks he is through SRS.

Advocates and defenders of a surgical solution look to research taken as science that attribute said ailment to neural structures and white matter in the brain similar to brains of people of the opposite sex. It should be noted that researchers have also found brain differences in pedophiles, pointing to the brain as seen on scans with less white matter and different neural structures. After the uproar in the media caused by the APA classifying pedophilia as a sexual orientation like homosexuality and transgenderism, the mental health profession backpedalled, is now saying that pedophilia is a mental disorder only if the person or another suffers as a result of the urges. See how research and opinion can be packaged whichever the wind blows? According to the latest DSM, a person is only classified as a pedophile if that person acts on their sexual attraction to children - or at least suffers from the fact that they have this attraction. If he has this attraction without abusing a child, then we can call it a sexual orientation. So the extent of reliability of brain imaging studies is that they show who is a pedophile but can not explain why.

How about body integrity identity disorder (or BIID), the disorder occurring when a person thinks his limbs are not his own and wants the healthy limbs to be amputated? This is a real condition, with sufferers really thinking this way. Do you see a revised label to body integrity dysphoria feasible, with doctors possibly acquiescing to a surgical “solution” to reduce the turmoil of individuals, once and for all, with said ailment? Would that not be partnering with insanity? Collaboration by doctors seem far fetched, but we see examples that instead of the Hippocratic oath, some are guided by the law of supply and demand, as long as there are patients who will pay for surgical procedures. A number of surgeons and doctors accommodated Michael Jackson in his multiple plastic surgeries and medical treatments in order to physically look a certain way. He was a perfectly normal and an attractive looking African American youth but he detested how he looked.

There are conditions like anorexia nervosa / bulimia where individuals especially females who see themselves as overweight when they look at the mirror, even if objective reality is the opposite. There are people that even think they are or should be a different specie, also a real mental condition. There are people who are driven to eat rocks, chalk, and dirt for unexplainable reasons (afflicted with pica), a real craving in some individuals.
,

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Most of what is quoted as coming from me did not - perhaps you made an error in posting. Was there a question for me in there?

Your quote brackets were off resulting in it appearing that you said both of those; when someone says in one place in one place that they are a woman and shortly after that they are a man it makes it confusing to someone reading it.

 

[PutresOmega]

If we go by that theory then murder by psychopaths should not be considered a sin because there are measurable differences in their brain.

Psychopaths are not considered a sin, last I checked. States of being are not sin but actions are. Your argument is invalid.

As I said before that is a cheap excuse to justify behavior and to take the easy path.

Transgender people seek to use surgery to correct their body to match their brain, harming no one. Suicide rates for transgender people from what I have read drop, dramatically, once they transition. Until we do discover what causes this discrepancy, I think it is much more moral than not to allow this transition to take place.

If God has a problem with it I offer Him the same solution I always do: come down and settle it Yourself if You don’t like the way we do things. Or, at the very least, inspire Your subordinates with more convincing arguments.

Indeed hormones and brain activity have anbefrect on us but god gave us freedom of will and the ability to make decisions. It may be a cross (personally I beg to differ as I think the cross part has a lot to do on the way it is handles in current society) but you have the ability to say no and make decisions over what you want.

I don’t see any reason they should say no. You and Grace have not made a convincing case for them risking a life of depression and potential suicide in my view. If this long running conversation I left months ago for school reasons and returned to find still being discussed on the front page has taught me anything it is that the jury is still out and arguments can be made on both sides.

Until such a time that it is settled, I will err on the pro-transition side since it leads to relief.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

…

I don’t see any reason they should say no. You and Grace have not made a convincing case for them risking a life of depression and potential suicide in my view. If this long running conversation I left months ago for school reasons and returned to find still being discussed on the front page has taught me anything it is that the jury is still out and arguments can be made on both sides.

Until such a time that it is settled, I will err on the pro-transition side since it leads to relief.

The jury is still out, as you say. If so, why give a green light to transitioning and/or SRS, with a solution that may lead to more problems, to irreparable harm.

It is prudent to follow the axiom : when in doubt, don’t.

We know this world is populated by people, particularly men, who have control of base desires, and also who unfortunately don’t have control, who are given to lecherous conduct.

For largely economic reasons, some women turn to prostitution. They dress and behave seductively, looking for customers in places where they ply their trade, places where otherwise respectable women would avoid. Such women risk and know they risk meeting men who commit violence and even kill their victims. Of course, there are plenty of men from all walks of life, who would not rape or kill, who frequent such places for paid sex.

For better, civil society has come to understand and accept that a woman who is dressed attractively is neither asking for or deserving to be raped or worse. A transgender is not asking or deserving to be raped or worse. Still, a prudent woman or a prudent trans woman does not risk walking in a place or get herself in a predictable situation where her well being and safety would be placed at risk.

There are enough reports of a male client or potential sex partner reacting in the extreme upon discovery after physical intimacy has started that his date does not have the expected female sex organ. It defies a great lack of prudence and understanding of human weakness when pre-op trans women get so bold, sending a clear message that they are open to engaging in casual sex with men in social scenarios, not necessarily in the sex trade. It is likely that these scenarios drive up the rate of assault and homicide against transgenders. Is this a surprise?
,

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

The jury is still out, as you say. If so, why give a green light to transitioning and/or SRS, with a solution that may lead to more problems, to irreparable harm.

It is prudent to follow the axiom : when in doubt, don’t.

The balance of probability is that it will help and thus it can be recommended.

We know this world is populated by people, particularly men, who have control of base desires, and also who unfortunately don’t have control, who are given to lecherous conduct.

For largely economic reasons, some women turn to prostitution. They dress and behave seductively, looking for customers in places where they ply their trade, places where otherwise respectable women would avoid. Such women risk and know they risk meeting men who commit violence and even kill their victims. Of course, there are plenty of men from all walks of life, who would not rape or kill, who frequent such places for paid sex.

For better, civil society has come to understand and accept that a woman who is dressed attractively is neither asking for or deserving to be raped or worse. A transgender is not asking or deserving to be raped or worse. Still, a prudent woman or a prudent trans woman does not risk walking in a place or get herself in a predictable situation where her well being and safety would be placed at risk.

There are enough reports of a male client or potential sex partner reacting in the extreme upon discovery after physical intimacy has started that his date does not have the expected female sex organ. It defies a great lack of prudence and understanding of human weakness when pre-op trans women get so bold, sending a clear message that they are open to engaging in casual sex with men in social scenarios, not necessarily in the sex trade. It is likely that these scenarios drive up the rate of assault and homicide against transgenders. Is this a surprise?
,

It can also happen to post-op transwomen.

 

[Rin]

The jury is still out, as you say. If so, why give a green light to transitioning and/or SRS, with a solution that may lead to more problems, to irreparable harm.

By this logic, people should not receive experimental treatment for things like cancer; after all, it might do irreparable harm.

But the difference is that HRT and/or SRS are hardly experimental - the beneficial effect in those who need it well established trough outcome studies, and suicide risk is significantly lower among people who receive treatment than among those who don’t. There is no way to possibly arrive at your conclusion in the quoted paragraph through the use of reason, when every outcome study to date demostrates significant improvement*; I’m sorry.

The only way to make a claim against SRS based on outcome analysis is to twist research data, like in the commonly sited McHugh interview. It is a pseudo-intellectual form of argumentation; it only looks credible until one takes a look at the studies in question. I would personally find “It is bad because I say so” more convincing.

This said, yes, the jury is still out regarding many things about transgenderism; it is still out even on the theory of gravity (as in things falling to the ground, not seriousness), which I think we’d all agree is more solidly established than the hypotheses about transgenderism. However, the jury is not out on whether HRT and/or SRS (depending on patient specifics) are beneficial; at least not other than in a philosophical sense. It is more likely that the current kinds of surgery will be superceded by better forms (a not too distant possibility being growing organs from one’s own stem cells), than that any new evidence significant enough to discard the current outcome studies were to surface. Either way, keeping people from treatment now would be playing with life; in a group where up to forty percent of the untreated population die from suicide, ideology should not govern the available options. These are cold, hard facts that cannot just be ignored.

*Just to have it on record (again…): The Swedish outcome study cited by McHugh uses non-transgender controls. It demonstrates that SRS doesn’t magically makes all problems go away (which nobody thought anyways, but hey, nice to be sure, right), but it does not say anything about the efficiency of the treatment. If that was to be done, the researchers would have to use untreated transgender controls, as they themselves noted in the published paper. This should require only basic understanding of scientific methodology to understand.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

By this logic, people should not receive experimental treatment for things like cancer; after all, it might do irreparable harm.

But the difference is that HRT and/or SRS are hardly experimental - the beneficial effect in those who need it well established trough outcome studies, and suicide risk is significantly lower among people who receive treatment than among those who don’t. There is no way to possibly arrive at your conclusion in the quoted paragraph through the use of reason, when every outcome study to date demostrates significant improvement*; I’m sorry.

The only way to make a claim against SRS based on outcome analysis is to twist research data, like in the commonly sited McHugh interview. It is a pseudo-intellectual form of argumentation; it only looks credible until one takes a look at the studies in question. I would personally find “It is bad because I say so” more convincing.

This said, yes, the jury is still out regarding many things about transgenderism; it is still out even on the theory of gravity (as in things falling to the ground, not seriousness), which I think we’d all agree is more solidly established than the hypotheses about transgenderism. However, the jury is not out on whether HRT and/or SRS (depending on patient specifics) are beneficial; at least not other than in a philosophical sense. It is more likely that the current kinds of surgery will be superceded by better forms (a not too distant possibility being growing organs from one’s own stem cells), than that any new evidence significant enough to discard the current outcome studies were to surface. Either way, keeping people from treatment now would be playing with life; in a group where up to forty percent of the untreated population die from suicide, ideology should not govern the available options. These are cold, hard facts that cannot just be ignored.

*Just to have it on record (again…): The Swedish outcome study cited by McHugh uses non-transgender controls. It demonstrates that SRS doesn’t magically makes all problems go away (which nobody thought anyways, but hey, nice to be sure, right), but it does not say anything about the efficiency of the treatment. If that was to be done, the researchers would have to use untreated transgender controls, as they themselves noted in the published paper. This should require only basic understanding of scientific methodology to understand.

The problem with that type of study is that the benefit has been so well established it’d be considered unethical to prevent people from access to SRS.

 

[Rin]

I tried editing the below into my previous post, but I was too late - I’m sorry.

There are enough reports of a male client or potential sex partner reacting in the extreme upon discovery after physical intimacy has started that his date does not have the expected female sex organ. It defies a great lack of prudence and understanding of human weakness when pre-op trans women get so bold, sending a clear message that they are open to engaging in casual sex with men in social scenarios, not necessarily in the sex trade. It is likely that these scenarios drive up the rate of assault and homicide against transgenders. Is this a surprise?

Nice try at victim blaming there.

But yes, some assaults happen because of such situations. Imprudent, but still the blame should be on the perpetrator, not the victim. In civilized countries, the gay/trans panic defense is invalid in court. Upon realizing the situation, if continuing the encounter was no longer an option attraction-wise (which would be perfectly okay), he should have respectfully said so, and left. Someone who resorts to violence over something like this, deserves a lengthy retreat to sort their tempers out, as they would be a danger to any woman, trans or not.

However, the majority of assaults happen simply because the assaulted person was outed in some way. Even more commonly, being “clocked” in a night club or similar place can cause problems - because, while the woman in question may not even have planned to meet someone (a significantly higher than normal amount of trans women are asexual), some men just believe all women want them. And when they realize that the woman they’re trying to chat up just might have a penis, they melt down, possibly with the mentality that she wanted to “fool” them, while the truth may be that she did her best not to get any attention. Yet, in such a case, the perpetrator would traditionally use the trans panic argument because apparently, the thought of being in the same public space as a trans woman is too scary to respect the law and common human dignity

Such violence can affect cis women too, by the way, since many cis women have facial or bodily traits that are common among trans women, and the attitudes behind such behavior are made worse by anti-trans campaigns trying to equate trans women with sexual predators and worse.

 

[Rin]

The problem with that type of study is that the benefit has been so well established it’d be considered unethical to prevent people from access to SRS.

This is true. And even if such a study were deemed ethical, finding willing controls would be close to impossible.

Yet, it is possible to do a less drastic outcome study based on interviews and screening of depressive, suicidal and so on symptoms on pre-treatment patients and post/mid-treatment patients. Some such studies have been done if I remember correctly, but I would gladly welcome more.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

The balance of probability is that it will help and thus it can be recommended.

It can also happen to post-op transwomen.

Sure, cis women in the sex trade get victimized, as well. It can happen to post-op transwomen in dating / socializing or in the sex trade when the potential sexual partner finds out after physical or emotional intimacy has taken place.
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[Joie_de_Vivre]

Sure, cis women in the sex trade get victimized, as well. It can happen to post-op transwomen in dating / socializing or in the sex trade when the potential sexual partner finds out after physical or emotional intimacy has taken place.
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Apparently having once had a penis is perfect grounds for murdering a woman, even if her crime was merely being attractive enough for him to hit on her.

 

[Rau]

…There are enough reports of a male client or potential sex partner reacting in the extreme upon discovery after physical intimacy has started that his date does not have the expected female sex organ. It defies a great lack of prudence and understanding of human weakness when pre-op trans women get so bold, sending a clear message that they are open to engaging in casual sex with men in social scenarios, not necessarily in the sex trade. It is likely that these scenarios drive up the rate of assault and homicide against transgenders. Is this a surprise?

IMHO the trans-woman is likely guilty of a deception, and arguably a sexual crime of some kind if the contact was progressed mutually and becomes physically intimate. The only defence I think the trans-woman could reasonably raise might be that she believed the man knew she was a man (trans-woman).

The man may have every right to react with shock and dismay. Violence is unacceptable and the man needs to be responsible for any such conduct.

The potential for these kinds of “interpersonal confusion and conflict” issues is itself an interesting thing. I wonder how trans-persons generally manage this.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

IMHO the trans-woman is likely guilty of a deception, and arguably a sexual crime of some kind if the contact was progressed mutually and becomes physically intimate. The only defence I think the trans-woman could reasonably raise might be that she believed the man knew she was a man (trans-woman).

The man may have every right to react with shock and dismay. Violence is unacceptable and the man needs to be responsible for any such conduct.

The potential for these kinds of “interpersonal confusion and conflict” issues is itself an interesting thing. I wonder how trans-persons generally manage this.

Are you talking about transwomen or transwomen prostitutes?

 

[Rau]

Are you talking about transwomen or transwomen prostitutes?

Transwomen. I don’t think proceeding to sexual contact under false pretenses is acceptable, and I would imagine it’s pretty rare too! I assume a transwoman prostitute is selling exactly “sex with a transwoman” so there is no confusion.