Gender Pronouns

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Thecesars

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Is it morally permissible to address someone by pronouns they do not correspond with their gender? Is it morally permissible to call somebody by a name that is purposefully contrary to their gender and other than their given name?
 
Let’s ask the question a different way: does it lead to human flourishing to do so?
 
I don’t know what the official Catholic position is on pronouns, if there is one. But if someone wants be known as a name other than the one they were born with, I believe that is only respectful to go by their wishes.
 
This is an area that I feel requires at least some level of compassion. I grew up with a “boy” who was anything but a boy. He had male genitals but nothing else. He had female breasts and almost no body hair, a girl’s voice and female hormones. His name was Alex but he preferred being called Alexandria. He eventually had a doctor fix what nature messed up and last I saw him, he was a happy, well adjusted woman.
 
I have a co-worker who uses they/them. I get a bit confused occasionally when I hear that “they’re planning to…” and then realize there’s only one person involved, not a group. But if that’s what they prefer I go along with it.
 
If John wanted to be called Sheila, are we lying by calling them Sheila for the sake of their feelings?
If not, if someone really wanted to be called Lucifer but his birth certificate said Jesus that would make me uncomfortable but my discomfort doesn’t matter as much as theirs?
 
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For people who are trans it not just hurt feelings, it could be life or death for some. It’s not a quirk or a preference.

People who don’t want to use a trans person’s preferred pronouns mainly have an issue with those who don’t pas well. Because if they pass you don’t give it a second thought.

OP, there was a thread on this recently. There are others if you do a search. Basically, it’s moral if it’s that person’s preference, not to mock someone.
 
I think, from what I’ve read, the issue is more it feels like we’re being forced to lie and not at all based on appearance. But also that Catholics want to help men embrace that God made them men and to not assist in the distortion of being called a woman.

Also. Life or death over pronouncing a name? The only thing I can think of is my life being threatened by John if I refuse to call him his preferred Sheila or Shanaynay.

We’ve “evolved “ into being so accepting and taking no stand all in the name of inclusivity. How lukewarm, Who was it that would spit such folk out? This forum is plagued I’m sorry to say, Ive seen it for a while now. When I search Catholic Answers and I see posts from 2007 or so Im so glad it’s an older bunch. I wonder why they left.

Muting this thread but the prediction is someone will have a witty insulting comeback and will gain many approvers and hearts, pat yourselves on the back and don’t forget to flag me because heaven forbid someone dare read and agree.
Sorry for the snark and cheers. And remember Chesterton said let’s not be so open minded that our brains fall out.
 
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I will never call them by a pronoun different than their birth sex and gender. The totalitarians can fine me into bankruptcy, throw me into jail, call me any name, fire me. I refuse to take part in their lies.
 
Theresa1 said:
Also. Life or death over pronouncing a name? The only thing I can think of is my life being threatened by John if I refuse to call him his preferred Sheila or Shanaynay.
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They have a mental issue or something that causes them distress over this. It does sound a bit unreasonable, but emotions can often get upset by the smallest of things, experience helps give a inkling at least of what’s going on. I’m not saying that the should be called by pronouns by the way.
Thecesars said:
Is it morally permissible to address someone by pronouns they do not correspond with their gender? Is it morally permissible to call somebody by a name that is purposefully contrary to their gender and other than their given name?
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Just talk to them directly and use words like you and don’t mention pronouns and everyone wins.
 
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Zach said:
The totalitarians
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That word gets used from time to time on here, but quite obviously none of the people who use it do actually live under a totalitarian regime. Totalitarianism means something quite specific and there are not a lot of countries in the modern world that fit the definition. North Korea would be an example. Even countries like China and Russia are not totalitarian. If you think about it, isn’t it actually quite offensive to talk about totalitarianism when you are actually not experiencing anything remotely comparable to conditions in Nazi Germany or the USSR?
 
We’ve got a lot of threads on this topic already. Have you done a search?

As a Catholic, I just figure we have bigger moral fish to fry than semantics. Where the Church hasn’t stated anything either way, pray about it and consult with your priest.
angel12 said:
It’s only polite to address people in the way they prefer to be addressed.
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I wish to be addressed as Your Majesty. I identify as royalty. :crazy_face:
 
Thecesars said:
Is it morally permissible to address someone by pronouns they do not correspond with their gender? Is it morally permissible to call somebody by a name that is purposefully contrary to their gender and other than their given name?
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Well, the Church teaches that a man cannot change into a woman and a woman cannot change into a man. As far as I know, the Church does not teach that it is necessary to confront those who are confused on that point, regardless of circumstance. That would imply that the answer is: It depends.
Gorgias said:
Let’s ask the question a different way: does it lead to human flourishing to do so?
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It is difficult to know that, particularly not if someone has been lead to believe by their psychiatrist that one can change from one gender to the other. If someone has such a serious psychological difficulty and they’ve been told to try to pass as the other gender, is it a good idea to confront them? What does “flourishing” even mean, in that context?
 
No it’s not offensive. I’m not comparing the situation to those murderous regimes. The term is often used in a broader cultural context and not strictly as a specific political system. If I am being shamed or fired from my job or fined because I won’t comply with using terms that offend my conscience then that is a form of societal control and a form of totalitarianism.
 
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No, I don’t think so, because it is not an “either/or” dichotomy but a “one vs both” dichotomy. The dictatorships of physical force were more than capable of also controlling all means of propoganda, and did that by means that ranged from subtle though brutal all the way to deadly. That’s more intimidating than “subtle” means of dictatorship, because the brutal dictatorships always used means that included both brutality and propoganda.
 
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It’s definitely more shadowy and harder to detect. In the brutal regimes people knew they were being controlled and knew they had to find a way to fight it. In the “soft totalitarian” brainwashing and control of today’s culture many people aren’t even aware of what’s going on and thus don’t even know there’s anything to resist.
 
I think it could be more dangerous because this type of subtlety, where people don’t even know they’re being brainwashed into teaching their kids that what’s contrary to Gods law is good, and while families sit and watch tv shows where John and Fred are getting married and our schools have books for first graders promoting family ideals contrary to Gods law as normal, and bakers afraid to follow their conscience for fear that the ideological takeover will leave their family bankrupt (sorry I’m not very eloquent in how I’m expressing my thought here) that the kind of danger in this ‘subtlety’ is the global scale it can turn into as the enemy uses such a large platform like social media to get these messages/agenda across, if the enemy only used physical brute force most people know that’s “bad” even if their propaganda convinced some.
But he’s onto a new trick, particularly one that destroys family and marriages because that is sacred to God, with the goal of convincing the world because it is harder to conquer the world with brute force but invite the world to just safely “believe” things , or else, is an approach that can win a spiritual battle not only for this generation but worse , because it will have casualties for those after us in future generations which is more than physical brute force can do.
 
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Since there are only two genders and anything else contradicts God’s holy Creation, how is this even an issue for Roman Catholics with a right understanding of said Creation?
 
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