Gender roles or no?

[ashleyxo]

Do you guys follow such roles/norms?

I’ve come across a weird Catholic blog and I’m just a little shaken by it. My muslim friend says they believe in such roles too, and that we are also ‘similar’. I’m not very knowledgeable about the faith yet…

Edit: I’m not talking about the Church itself (marriages and careers, life in general). I also realized I made a similar post, my memory sucks

 

[De_Maria]

Do Catholics believe in gender roles

Yes, but,

1. It’s not explicitly taught.
2. The Doctrine can be derived from the Teaching on the Sacrament of Matrimony. Matrimony means, the “office of the womb”. Since only women have wombs, we know that the gender role being addressed here is motherhood.
3. There is no Commandment that men and women may not switch roles in the raising of children if necessity dictates. In other words, if a man finds himself in the position that he must be the parent raising the children and the woman in the position of bread winner, there is no sin.

or is it just a matter of personal opinion?

No.

Do you guys follow such roles/norms?

Yes.

I’ve come across a weird Catholic blog and I’m just a little shaken by it. I’m not very knowledgeable about the faith yet…

I hope this helps.

 

[Spencerian]

To add to Maria’s answer:

There are some roles in Church tradition that are specifically male, such as the deacon, priest and bishop.

This distinction isn’t because women cannot be holy. In fact, if Christ wanted a holy woman as a priestess, His mother would’ve been perfect. But he specifically chose twelve men for this, reflecting the Jewish condition of males in the vocational priesthood. The Church does not question why Christ chose men only and so sees that it hasn’t the authority to change that decision.

But without the many, many contributions of various women in Church history, the Church would not exist in the strength and richness that it became. In my opinion, God appoints priests through the Sacrament of Holy Orders, but it is often women who are chosen by Him for field work. Jeanne d’Arc (“Joan of Arc”) and Saint (Mother) Teresa of Calcutta are two of many examples.

As Christians, we all share a special type of priesthood, particularly as Catholics in the offering of the Eucharist. A priest’s central role is the offering of sacrifice. As it was in the Old Covenant with animals, we join with the priest in the offering of the Lord’s Body and Blood, a most perfect Sacrifice, for the forgiveness of sins.

 

[ashleyxo]

thank you!

isn’t motherhood the state of being a mother? besides having a child and being female, what else is there? It doesn’t seem like a ‘role’ to me, unless I’m interpreting this wrongly

 

[De_Maria]

Note: Perhaps you posted this question because the current version of the OP excludes motherhood. However, if you read my response, I quoted the entire OP as it was originally posted and it did not exclude motherhood then. Apparently, the OP was edited since my contribution.

Anyway, if you asked for any other reason, I respond below.

thank you!

isn’t motherhood the state of being a mother?

Yes.

besides having a child and being female, what else is there?

Feeding the child. Which in the past was exclusively breastfeeding.

It doesn’t seem like a ‘role’ to me, unless I’m interpreting this wrongly

If you are the one with the equipment to care and feed the child, then it is inconvenient that you also be the bread winner who leaves the child in order to bring home the bacon.

 

[ashleyxo]

I understand, not fully, but accept the teaching of male priesthood (to be frank I don’t care much to argue over something that we can’t change), but I see such roles spilling over to other jobs in the church like serving, giving out holy communion and such so I was wondering if that’s just legitimate or it’s just a cultural thing

I don;t know if this is a stupid question but why isn’t there an exclusively female vocation in the church? Someone asked me this and I didn’t know how to respond. There’s the male equivalent of sisters and such.

 

[Spencerian]

Yes, I would agree that motherhood is a role of women, although you needn’t be the biological mother of a child to serve in the role, such as a step-mother, mother-in-law, foster mother, or godmother.

The current talk of “gender roles” posits a fallacy on what being male and female means–and not in a good way, as you are asking. The popular talk attempts to claim that such traditional roles (often based on biology) are just “wrong” because they are limiting.

Of course they are limiting. One crucial element of biology is the perpetuation of new life. Only a human female can give birth. But that role is impossible without the natural cooperation of the male in his role in the act of conception. There has not and may not be a child born naturally and only from the genetic means of two same-sex parents. If that isn’t a definitive example of gender roles, coming from the biological level, I don’t know what is.

That’s not to say that people who lose their spouses cannot provide the same love and substitution of roles to their children in place of the missing parent. These are special exceptions. But a few people want to force this idea as the norm. One of them might say that this is their own business and they can do what they want in their life. That may be true. But the victim in such thinking are the children involved in that person’s little sociological experiment.

 

[ashleyxo]

there are obvious biological differences, but what about the social?

eg the most common one would be women are supposed to be nurturing and men should provide but nurturing seems to be more of a personality trait than something only women should/can do. You can also say fathers who are not nurturing aren’t good fathers.

i dont personally understand it because it seem to differ amongst cultures (roles of what a mother or father should do)

 

[Spencerian]

I understand, not fully, but accept the teaching of male priesthood (to be frank I don’t care much to argue over something that we can’t change), but I see such roles spilling over to other jobs in the church like serving, giving out holy communion and such so I was wondering if that’s just legitimate or it’s just a cultural thing

I don;t know if this is a stupid question but why isn’t there an exclusively female vocation in the church? Someone asked me this and I didn’t know how to respond. There’s the male equivalent of sisters and such.

One idea I can give for what appears to be the limited role of women in the more intimate roles of the Church are Christ’s on words on His purpose from Matthew 5:17. “I have not come to abolish the law or the prophets but to fulfill them.”

The priesthood founded by God through Moses used only men. Christ perfected it but not changed its nature with his new priesthood.

Again, it’s not to say that women do not play a serious role in the Church. There are a handful of women out there who have claimed to have become “women priests” in the Church. They have tried to be seen as such because they feel called to the Church, but likely from a misguided sense of social justice (“women can be anything!”) or worse, a sense of empowerment. A male priest has authority and power conferred upon him through Holy Orders, but this is a special cross for them to bear, not wield like a sword. You cannot claim the mantle of the priesthood any more than claiming to be a sponge although you are actually human.

There are, as you noted, special vocations where men and women serve the Church without Holy Orders: the monasteries. Monks and nuns. Some monks are priests but not all priests are monks. No nun is a priest. But without our nuns, the world infrastructure of the hospital (among other institutions) wouldn’t exist. One out of every six hospitals in the US began as a Catholic hospital. So the female monastics, starting from Syncletica on up, were and are extremely important to the Church in the care of her people, even if they were formally a part of the central ministry. In fact, I don’t think they’d do a better job if they were connected that way.

 

[Spencerian]

there are obvious biological differences, but what about the social?

eg the most common one would be women are supposed to be nurturing and men should provide but nurturing seems to be more of a personality trait than something only women should/can do. You can also say fathers who are not nurturing aren’t good fathers.

i dont personally understand it because it seem to differ amongst cultures (roles of what a mother or father should do)

I see. This is an area where I’ll be less comfortable in answering because I’m not the most sociable person. But I’m old enough to know where I’m more wrong and right, so I’ll take a crack at it.

The challenge of the social roles is that culture can be too malleable, too likely to be changed by trends and fads. Some of these seemed (and sometimes were) sexist but perhaps with good intent, such as how women wore dresses. Religions, environments also play a role, of course. I guess I’d say (as you know) is that gender roles aren’t but can’t be universal since human culture often adapts to the area they live in and adjusts how the fundamental lives of man and woman react to the world.

One thought I can add to that is, when the basic needs of food, shelter and clothing are provided, love and the meaning of self and the universe comes quickly after. Men and women work to provide the first three, but then sit together to understand the fourth.

 

[Lea101]

I think I know what blog you read…forget about it. It’s all opinions anyway.

As far as I know, men and women are allowed to do anything (that isn’t sinful obviously). Excluding priesthood.

I don’t agree with traditional stereotypes because I feel that’s such a narrow view. Usually such stereotypes or norms are from your typical white middle class family from the 50s. If you like that, fine, but it’s not ‘the Catholic view’. If you honestly think a Chinese mom in say, Singapore (my country) is the same as a white mom in the US, then you’re veery wrong.

Everyone is different, whatever you do, just don’t be selfish and instead do what you and your spouse feel is best.

As for careers, again, do what you like.

As for personality, be who you are. If you are quiet and gentle, great. If you are loud and assertive, great. The world will be sooooooo boring if all men and women are the same, which is why I avoid the whole ‘traditional femininity’ mindset (nothing wrong with being like that, I just reject the notion that we all should strive to be like that)

 

[Walking_Home]

Do you guys follow such roles/norms?

I’ve come across a weird Catholic blog and I’m just a little shaken by it. My muslim friend says they believe in such roles too, and that we are also ‘similar’. I’m not very knowledgeable about the faith yet…

Edit: I’m not talking about the Church itself (marriages and careers, life in general). I also realized I made a similar post, my memory sucks

---

There are blogs/sites/etc – that way off the rails (toxic). Just plain nutters.

The Catholic Church does not have “rigid” roles for men and women. The Church supports – different types of family life. The stay at home mother – with the husband going out to work. The stay at home father – and the wife works. A family where both husband and wife work, etc.

While Holy Orders is for men only —The Church is for the advancement of women – within the Church and working in society.

 

[RoseofMary1]

Father Ripperger gives some good talks on gender issues.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLqCg6VrZgYiSkP1xGtL8OXr0VGif9VPP7

Gender rebellion is just rebellion against God and the way God set up the world.

 

[Walking_Home]

INTERVENTION BY THE HOLY SEE
AT THE 45th SESSION OF THE COMMISSION
FOR SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT
OF THE U.N. ECONOMIC AND SOCIAL COUNCIL ON:

“Priority theme: promoting full employment and decent work for all”
ADDRESS OF H.E. MSGR. CELESTINO MIGLIORE*
New York
Thursday, 8 February 2007

Nowadays, equal pay for equal work seems obvious, but women are still too often overlooked or undervalued in this regard, leading to discrimination against them in both rich and poor countries. The equality of women and men should be evident also in their treatment in the workplace, in salaries and in the acquisition of pensions. The presence of women throughout the workplace can only help to improve it, revealing and overcoming the contradictions present in many societies, including those organized principally according to the criteria of efficiency and productivity. Equality will be seen immediately through equal pay for equal work, protection for working mothers and fairness in career advancement.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/s...ents/rc_seg-st_20070208_migliore-work_en.html

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

I think the Church is EXTREMELY flexible in “gender roles” within Marriage. Holy orders is a different vocation, so gender is vital there.

Given that many modern female saints were “working” mothers–especially doctors like St. Giana and Bl. Charbel–It is clear that they do not support the 1950’s ideal of woman at home, man out to work as a standard.

(Also, even in the Bible the woman of great value works “outside” the home)

 

[Tis_Bearself]

With respect to gender roles in the Church, women can’t be priests, and many religious orders are limited to one gender.

With respect to family life, the Church teaches that men and women are equal partners in a marriage. The Church also encourages couples to procreate, which necessarily entails the woman bearing children. Other than that, the Church does not teach a specific role for women. There have been female saints who were stay at home moms, and female saints who were very independent and had careers. It’s largely up to the individual. Those who claim the Church teaches something specific with respect to women’s roles are often twisting or cherry-picking Church teaching to suit some agenda they have.

 

[StarMapp]

Familiaris Consortio may be what you are seeking. It relates to our times and circumstances.

Apostolic Exhortation on the Role of the Christian Family in the Modern World.
His Holiness Pope John Paul II
Promulgated on December 15, 1981

http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_jp02fc.htm

The First chapters in Sirach are a good reference as well.

Not much else I can think of at this time.

 

[AdamP88]

Do you guys follow such roles/norms?

I’ve come across a weird Catholic blog and I’m just a little shaken by it. My muslim friend says they believe in such roles too, and that we are also ‘similar’. I’m not very knowledgeable about the faith yet…

Yeah, there are gender roles in marriage and in life. But I wouldn’t say they’re as rigid as some people make out. There are “catholic” bloggers out there who distort it into a dogmatic set of rules that must be followed under pain of sin.

 

[DarkLight]

Usually such stereotypes or norms are from your typical white middle class family from the 50s.

Yeah, I think a lot of people don’t have a terribly good grasp on history. The division of labor between “in the home” and “outside the home” is pretty modern itself - your average farming family, or even a small tradesman, wouldn’t have seen it this way. It was all the business of keeping everyone housed and clothed and fed. The idea of work outside the home as a separate thing from home life wasn’t common until the industrial revolution when more people were actually having “jobs” in the way we think of it. (Not that they didn’t exist prior to that, but that they weren’t what most of the population had.) One also must not discount that throughout history, many women who did stay home had servants, who were typically also women - women who worked.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

ashleyxo:

Do you guys follow such roles/norms?

I’ve come across a weird Catholic blog and I’m just a little shaken by it. My muslim friend says they believe in such roles too, and that we are also ‘similar’. I’m not very knowledgeable about the faith yet…

Yeah, there are gender roles in marriage and in life. But I wouldn’t say they’re as rigid as some people make out. There are “catholic” bloggers out there who distort it into a dogmatic set of rules that must be followed under pain of sin.

Exactly, not only are these bloggers wrong, but they are perpetuating a very harmful stereotype that will deeply affect both their sons and daughters.