Gender roles...

[Litcrit]

I’ve come to terms with the fact that I’ll be earning money (university prof) and my dh will be taking care of kids (high school graduate night musician/hobby fishing ) This reflects our wants, needs, characteristics, talents, EVERYTHING! So I’ve always been OK with this, except for an evening when I read some people’s opinions on CAF that men are providers and women are nurturers Well… My DH is the nurturing one… while I’m the only one that’s capable and willing and deliriously HAPPY to provide, so

Where I DO have a problem is how unlike a ‘typical’ woman I am! Ummm… WHAT IS a 'typical woman? I HATE anything having to do with love stories and love problems and relationships and my friends telling me about those! I mostly hang out with men, and discuss politics, history, anthropology, etc. with them. I only can stand hanging out with women who are very masculine and ONLY talk politics, history, anthropology, etc.

I’m NOT cuddly. I like roughhousing with my toddler, and chasing her, and throwing her up in the air, but I HATE cuddling her and putting her down to sleep, and comforting her… that stuff is BORING. My dh is much more cuddly, but she chooses ME for this stuff… WHY?!? Because I still breastfeed her?

I like wearing clothes men would wear too. I actually wore my grandfathers’ (both of them) clothes when I was a teen. I did NOT want to be sexually appealing to men. I wanted to discuss things with them, and my accidentally being a girl got in the way

I’m still much like that, actually. . My clothes aren’t really all that baggy anymore, or previously owned by dead grandfathers, but they’re still stuff guys would wear too - except the very long skirts I sometimes wear. I never seem to act quite like a woman, my husband tells me. I still only care about ‘men’s’ topics and get bored to death if a mom starts talking diapers or teething.

At what point does this become a sin? To what extent are we obliged to accept our gender roles? WHAT are our gender roles, anyway? If I give birth and breastfeed, is that enough from me as a biological woman? (THAT much I can do ) Is anything MORE just a societal construct that I can discard?

 

[bunnynessuk]

you are a woman but you dont need to be feminine the church doesnt dictate how you must act in that way - so long as you and your hubby are happy with your choices it is irrelevant whether you or he make the money etc!

YOUdont need to dress in skirts and dresses to be a woman!

The only thing i would say is that whilst you might not be ‘cuddly’ your baby (s) will appreciate hugs and cuddles!

J

 

[thenewmrssears]

I’m very feminine and preppy, but I completely lack the desire to stay home with children.

Nathan is actually the one who wants to stay home, and he will be working from home as a writer starting on Sept. 29th. When it comes time to have kids he’ll be the one there everyday.

I work a lot. I travel for work a lot. I make a heck of a lot more money than Nathan does. I’m flying up the corporate ladder. I’m in graduate school. I WANT to keep working.

I want children, but we’ll have the reverse roles as well. People can be very judgmental when they have certain expectations, but who cares? It isn’t what works for them, but rather what works for you and your husband.

I haven’t read anything on CAF that is particularly hurtful or anything like that. I’m not sure if that is what you were implying or not. When I mentioned about a week ago that Nathan would being his life as a stay at home husband in a few weeks, I got a lot of positive responses!

 

[sanctamaria17]

Gender roles-fun stuff, hahaha

Yeah, the Church really doesn’t say anything other than God created men and women, men only priesthood, modesty for both sexes, etc (though JP2 did advocate nursing).

I’m not always the typical girly-girl. Most of my friends throughout high school and even college (mine is mostly women) are men. I played rugby, the only reason I stopped was because it was a huge time commitment and I have to work. I like “boyish” humor, I laugh loud, talk loud, and eat fast and a lot (all of which I’m told isn’t very girly of me). My favorite movies are mob movies (bad Italian girl, I know!), epic movies, and Monty Python. My field is also international relations, which is considered by some as a high powered, “masculine” field.

I do like to dress nice at times and cook though, hahaha. I always wear lipstick, big earrings, and high heels. I take pride in my Tuscan cuisine and paella. And I’ll admit, I’m quite the romantic, though I don’t have an intention to marry until after I graduate college at the very least (so I haven’t started up anything, haha).

I’ll admit though, it gets annoying when people put pressure on me to marry and have babies soon, or make assumptions that I’m going to in the imminent future. Umm, why don’t the guys get treated the same? It’s like they have all the time in the world while I’ll be an “old maid” if I’m not married by 25:shrug: .

 

[ohioszo]

You could be a role model for your extended family of nieces and female cousins. Make an effort to attend family events and talk to the girls there. That is what is something special to Our Lord. The older/elderly women will have respect for you. Some may be in awe. I don’t think that *just *talking to the men is appropriate, but, there is plenty of time to find out more about your uncles, about your male cousins too. Those women who are of your age, successful too and raising children, may want to compare notes with each other about anything … they may not be in your family. You know that the family is spiritually well, when both is happening: good family rearing and jobs. I’m just like you, but these are the things I do. When it comes to household chores, I do not have gender specific behavior, unless it is obvious that it takes strength or skill that I lack. My cousin’s wife roofed part of our house at one time, and, she was even more in that way, as beautiful and talented as she was in party giving too and she was a catechist. I thought she was a shopaholic, but, it turns out that her daughter works for P&G, so that worked. One of my most favorite women was my cousin’s wife, a lawyer who had a nanny and other help. She is at a low point now and I wish her well. I pray that her independent spirit will rise again. She was against abuse of women, she belonged to a book club to discuss latest books, non-fiction as well, and, she had friends in high places.

 

[Guitar]

I never seem to act quite like a woman, my husband tells me. I still only care about ‘men’s’ topics and get bored to death if a mom starts talking diapers or teething.

You do act like a woman, Litcrit - just not like someone else’s definition of a woman that isn’t you. (“It ain’t me, babe”, either, to quote Bob Dylan.)

And they’re not “men’s” topics, they belong to anyone who is interested in them.

I’m pretty much like you. I’m an engineer and the provider and I’ve never seen any of the things you describe as being masculine by definition. I am/like/am interested in those things and I am not masculine. When asked, “so why did you want to do a man’s job?”, I answer by asking, “what makes it by definition a man’s job?” Never had a good answer yet.

I don’t allow any of these things, or other’s opinions of what a woman’s personality or interests “should” be, define my femininity. I grew up in with a very orthodox Catholic father who did believe men should be in charge and women didn’t have the psychological make up for leadership, but he never interfered with any aspect of my personality, did everything he could towards my education and career, and never suggested anything about my attitudes was sinful.

My non-Catholic mother, OTOH, was a different kettle of fish, but her problem was 100% based on social stereotypes and personal insecurities. She tried to make me into something I wasn’t, but it was based on concern due to the way her family regarded and treated any woman who didn’t fit their mould.

 

[KCT]

Just be open to the possibility that you could change your mind after having a baby.

I’ve met women who were SURE they did not want to stay home. A newborn in their arms changed everything.

Keep your options open.

 

[Litcrit]

Just be open to the possibility that you could change your mind after having a baby.

I’ve met women who were SURE they did not want to stay home. A newborn in their arms changed everything.

Keep your options open.

I already have a 19mo old.

I HAVE stayed with her all this time, but so has my husband.

I’m ready to leave her for a few hours a week with him.

Luckily, in my country, this is a non-issue, as all moms get a year of paid maternity leave, and by that time, it’s not a newborn in arms anymore, but a toddler in a tank… or a submarine… or other heavy armor

 

[1ke]

If you have never been exposed to the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator (MBTI) I suggest you look into it. See if you can find someone in your country who administers the instrument and will teach you about it.

At a minimum, I suggest the book Please Understand Me by Kiersey & Bates.

It sounds to me like in the T-F (Thinking/Feeling) dimension of preferences (how you make decisions), you are a “T”. There’s a GREAT article that discusses being a “T” woman… 75% of women are “F” and therefore you are in a very small minority.

This is the article:

thepeopleprocess.com/articles/thinking-woman-feeling-man.htm

I know a couple of “T” women I shared this article with who said it really helped them. But, just remember-- if you have a daughter she will likely be an “F” and personality preferences seem to be inate rather than “learned”. So, studying up on the MBTI might help you relate to any daughters you have who do not share your style.

 

[BamaRider]

http://bestsmileys.com/eating1/16.gif

 

[whatevergirl]

I don’t think we should box ourselves into ‘roles.’ Jesus never told women to not work outside the home, nor did He tell men that they must be providers–or else. I was happy to stay at home with my babies, and found that nurturing side to myself. (which surprised me a bit ) Now, I have a career, my ‘babies’ being 12 and 15 yrs old…and while I chose to stay at home when they were young, this might not be the choice for all women/families. I think it’s important to have a parent at home with children in their preschool years…but, again, that might not be a situation that a family is capable of at that time. Families have to come to terms with what works in the best interest for their kids, and their households. There are no cookie cutter molds that fit every single mom and dad.

As long as you put your family’s needs first, before your own…before your career…you are following what God wants for you…in the vocation as a mother.

I will say, that a woman who works should not have to explain why she works–even if her children are small. I don’t like how some women (I have had friends who have done this to one another) rail against each other–and it’s so sad to me. Working outside of the home mothers, are not “less than” moms who stay at home…and women who stay at home, should not be looked at as not being “fulfilled” as women who work outside of the home.

I hope that in my lifetime, I stop seeing women having to explain why they have careers, and women shouldn’t have to explain to their working friends–why they ‘chose’ to stay home. (Frankly, it’s no one’s business) Men who work 12 hour days, are seen as heroes, but if a woman does it (and maybe it’s necessary possibly for her family, who knows?) is looked at as ignoring her motherly duties. Men AND women are equally needed in the home to take care of their children.

Ok…that’s my two cents.

 

[Guitar]

http://bestsmileys.com/eating1/16.gif

You’l end up fat with the amount of popcorn you eat watching CAF.

 

[SarahR]

It sounds to me like in the T-F (Thinking/Feeling) dimension of preferences (how you make decisions), you are a “T”. There’s a GREAT article that discusses being a “T” woman… 75% of women are “F” and therefore you are in a very small minority.

This is the article:

thepeopleprocess.com/articles/thinking-woman-feeling-man.htm

That’s a good article. I’m also a T woman (roar!!?). Grew up with lotsa brothers, had a blast.

To the OP–an unimportant and nosy question, but you mentioned your clothing style. How about shoes? I always wear thick heels (usually around 4" high—not hoochie mama though lol). They make me feel feminine without compromising the strength God gave me.

I hear ya about the mothering issues though. I have 4 kids (the oldest is 6 yrs). I have to over expose my nurturing side because I realize my oldest daughter especially needs it. Occasionally I have to act a little bit more sympathetic than I normally feel, but it’s worth it to ensure she has a good role model that she can relate to (she’s very emotional).

 

[mizznicole]

If you’re interested in a theological view of feminism that aims at faithfulness to the Church, I highly recommend Michele Schumacher’s Women in Christ: Toward a New Feminism.

Also, St. Edith Stein’s volume, Essays on Woman, is good to wrestle with.

 

[BamaRider]

You’l end up fat with the amount of popcorn you eat watching CAF.

Prolly so, but ya gotta admit, lots of free entertainment.

 

[Guitar]

75% of women are “F” and therefore you are in a very small minority.

I wouldn’t describe 25% as a very small minority. Minority, yes, but not “very small”.

Just read the article … yep, probably helps some people a lot but it’s still a generalisation. It doesn’t exactly describe either me or my good friend who is a “feeling man”. I suppose you can’t write an article without generalising, though. At least it acknowledges that not all women or men come as “standard”, which is a jolly good start.

 

[blessedtoo]

Where I DO have a problem is how unlike a ‘typical’ woman I am! Ummm… WHAT IS a 'typical woman? I HATE anything having to do with love stories and love problems and relationships and my friends telling me about those!

I think YOU are the one stereotyping by using a tired cliche of womanhood. I know very few women who limit themselves to discussions on the topics you’ve listed. Unless they are in their teens or early 20’s! And that, I would attribute mostly to age rather than gender.

I mostly hang out with men, and discuss politics, history, anthropology, etc. with them. I only can stand hanging out with women who are very masculine and ONLY talk politics, history, anthropology, etc.

Again, it is you who are stereotyping. And what is a woman who is “very masculine”? I talk about all the subjects you mentioned with my gal friends and I am most decidedly NOT “very masculine”.

I’m NOT cuddly. I like roughhousing with my toddler, and chasing her, and throwing her up in the air, but I HATE cuddling her and putting her down to sleep, and comforting her.

…

That doesn’t sound like a gender issue problem - it sounds like an intimacy problem. And I would worry that withholding affection from your child could do some harm in the long term.

that stuff is BORING.

Forgive me, but that sounds incredibly immature. Cleaning my house is boring. Doing bills is boring. Sometimes talking to friends about their problems is boring. But we are certainly expected to do the things necessary to meet the needs of living our lives - including the needs of our children - even when it’s not exciting.

My dh is much more cuddly, but she chooses ME for this stuff… WHY?!? Because I still breastfeed her?

Maybe she feels deprived by you. Maybe she is sensing that you have some issues with expressing your love for her. Kids are incredibly intuitive.

I’m still much like that, actually. . My clothes aren’t really all that baggy anymore, or previously owned by dead grandfathers, but they’re still stuff guys would wear too - except the very long skirts I sometimes wear. I never seem to act quite like a woman, my husband tells me. I still only care about ‘men’s’ topics and get bored to death if a mom starts talking diapers or teething.

They are not terribly exciting topics, it’s true. However, they do involve the welfare of your child and when she starts teething, you may find yourself engaging in these “boring” conversations because you may need advice and support.

At what point does this become a sin?

Looks like I am alone here, but it sounds pretty selfish. I don’t think anyone, including the Church, expects you or any woman to be supermom or even to feel flush with maternal instinct, but taking an interest in the often tedious details of our children’s lives seems the least we can do. Cuddling, comforting, and putting our kids to sleep is, IMO, an obligation and withholding such affection because we find it “boring” is cold.

If I give birth and breastfeed, is that enough from me as a biological woman?

Would you have been satisfied with only this from your own mother?

 

[Litcrit]

I think YOU are the one stereotyping by using a tired cliche of womanhood. I know very few women who limit themselves to discussions on the topics you’ve listed. Unless they are in their teens or early 20’s! And that, I would attribute mostly to age rather than gender.
Again, it is you who are stereotyping. And what is a woman who is “very masculine”? I talk about all the subjects you mentioned with my gal friends and I am most decidedly NOT “very masculine”.

… This thread is about ‘types’ and ‘stereotypes’ and it is a thankless topic because, inductively and analytically, one could not attach a set of characteristics or functions to a gender, except giving birth and breastfeeding for women, and impregnating the woman for men - that much is biologically given, the rest is murky ground - but that never stopped more ‘masculine’ women from feeling different and judged. I have been told repeatedly by many that I am somehow unfeminine because of my traits and interests. They are not here now, so I’m the one that has to represent their views, which makes me the one who is a stereotyping bigot.

The women I tend to naturally gravitate towards as friends all seem to share the following: they have body language that is more commonly used by men, they don’t wear high heels or make-up or jewelry, they’ll drink beer out of the bottle, they won’t discuss their relationships or feelings in detail (they’ll say: ‘I broke up with X because Y.’ I’ll say: ‘Sorry to hear it’ They’ll say: ‘Yeah. So, anyway, what do you think about…’ ), they won’t discuss cosmetics or clothes or diets. They’ll watch a political show over a soap every time.

I don’t purposely choose such friends, it just happens.

That doesn’t sound like a gender issue problem - it sounds like an intimacy problem. And I would worry that withholding affection from your child could do some harm in the long term.
Forgive me, but that sounds incredibly immature. Cleaning my house is boring. Doing bills is boring. Sometimes talking to friends about their problems is boring. But we are certainly expected to do the things necessary to meet the needs of living our lives - including the needs of our children - even when it’s not exciting.

Where did I say that I was withholding affection from my child? Whenever she wants to be held, sit on my lap, nurse, fall asleep in my arms, etc., I DO IT. Some days it means a total of several hours of sitting motionlessly with a motionless, silent child in my lap. At some point, it does become boring. I’m not a cuddly person at all, and my daughter seems to be extremely cuddly. I’m OK with that and I DO IT EVERY TIME. Please don’t call CPS just yet.

I immensely prefer talking to her, helping her learn, playing with her, being active, and don’t find that boring.

In my personal experience and conversations, I ‘picked up’ the stereotype that those things I prefer are ‘dad’ things, while the cuddly stuff is for ‘moms’. This is why I mentioned this.

Would a father be judged if he said publicly that he found the cuddly stuff boring, but enjoys playing with his kids? I’m thinking he’d be praised for playing with his kids, period. I usually think I’m a good parent, but sometimes feel I’d make a better dad…

Maybe she feels deprived by you. Maybe she is sensing that you have some issues with expressing your love for her. Kids are incredibly intuitive.

There are many different ways of expressing one’s love, as any not-too-cuddly person will tell you. But, as I said, I do also express it by cuddling, sometimes for several hours a day. I don’t think I have issues, I’ve just always been like this

They are not terribly exciting topics, it’s true. However, they do involve the welfare of your child and when she starts teething, you may find yourself engaging in these “boring” conversations because you may need advice and support.

My daughter is 19mo and has lots of teeth by now. I’m not talking about the normal exchange of practical information, which my husband also does with his dad friends. That I don’t see as typically masculine or feminine or anything but ‘parenty’. What I find stereotypically feminine and incidentally unlike me is enjoying these conversations for themselves and talking about nothing else, to the point where a congregation of moms starts looking like a roomful of girls enjoying playing with their baby dolls, which I never enjoyed, but played war and football instead. . Makes me feel like a freak all over again.

Looks like I am alone here, but it sounds pretty selfish. I don’t think anyone, including the Church, expects you or any woman to be supermom or even to feel flush with maternal instinct, but taking an interest in the often tedious details of our children’s lives seems the least we can do. Cuddling, comforting, and putting our kids to sleep is, IMO, an obligation and withholding such affection because we find it “boring” is cold.

I do fulfill this obligation, as I have stated. I do not withhold affection from my child. She does need much more physical affection than I do, but I give it to her every time.

Would you have been satisfied with only this from your own mother?

My question on ‘giving birth’ and ‘breastfeeding’ was more in line of ‘Can we agree that this is the only part that is certainly a woman’s given role, and other things, like who provides, who like cuddling and thus cuddles more, who is more nurturing, who is the disciplinarian, who helps with math more, are just individual?’ And ‘Can we agree that if I give birth and breastfeed, (and of course give all that is needed to my children in terms of affection - but my husband does that too - if she approaches him for cuddling, he’ll also always pick her up - I’d like these to be gender-neutral things, in my perfect world ) I can refuse to wear high heels and make-up, drink beer out of a bottle, and think analytically instead of empathetically?’

BTW, my mother was an awesome woman and a mother, and also much more cuddly than I am. I remember a game she invented when I was around 5 - she’d chase me around the apartment, and if she caught me, she’d get to cuddle and kiss me, which was the only way she’d get to do that at all. I just never was cuddly, even as a baby. I’d only fall asleep in my crib, with no contact with anyone, for instance. I’m still like that, but I DO CO-SLEEP with my 19mo because SHE NEEDS it. Another obligation I fulfill although it is far from my personal preference.

 

[Litcrit]

If you have never been exposed to the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator (MBTI) I suggest you look into it. See if you can find someone in your country who administers the instrument and will teach you about it.

At a minimum, I suggest the book Please Understand Me by Kiersey & Bates.

It sounds to me like in the T-F (Thinking/Feeling) dimension of preferences (how you make decisions), you are a “T”. There’s a GREAT article that discusses being a “T” woman… 75% of women are “F” and therefore you are in a very small minority.

This is the article:

thepeopleprocess.com/articles/thinking-woman-feeling-man.htm

I know a couple of “T” women I shared this article with who said it really helped them. But, just remember-- if you have a daughter she will likely be an “F” and personality preferences seem to be inate rather than “learned”. So, studying up on the MBTI might help you relate to any daughters you have who do not share your style.

Hey, thanks! I’m ENTP, so you’re right, I am a ‘T’ kind of woman! My 19mo daughter, OTOH, seems to be very much on the’F’ end of the spectrum - she’s very cuddly and empathetic, she’ll always comfort us if we seem sad, etc.

The article helped a lot, thank you. I did not find myself in everything, but a lot of it seemed to describe me.

That’s a good article. I’m also a T woman (roar!!?). Grew up with lotsa brothers, had a blast.

To the OP–an unimportant and nosy question, but you mentioned your clothing style. How about shoes? I always wear thick heels (usually around 4" high—not hoochie mama though lol). They make me feel feminine without compromising the strength God gave me.

I hate high heels, always have, but I DO own a simple black pair of shoes with thick soles and thicker heel, so they’re almost feminine

I hear ya about the mothering issues though. I have 4 kids (the oldest is 6 yrs). I have to over expose my nurturing side because I realize my oldest daughter especially needs it. Occasionally I have to act a little bit more sympathetic than I normally feel, but it’s worth it to ensure she has a good role model that she can relate to (she’s very emotional).

I’m sure I’ll have to overexpose my nurturing side too with my little girl, she seems very sensitive and ‘feely’. Thank you.

And Guitar, thanks for your insights! Somehow, I knew you’d chime in!

 

[Guitar]

And Guitar, thanks for your insights! Somehow, I knew you’d chime in!

Glad to oblige.

Heh, I guess you can tell I’ve been fighting this same fight for many years too! Wot you said … “I do not find myself in everything, but a lot of it seemed to describe me” was well put. I felt the article read like T women were boys in girls’ bodies, and well, sorry, I’m not. I’m not rubbishing the article though, like I say, it’s hard to write this sort of thing without generalisations that won’t fit all of the readership.