Gender roles...

[Litcrit]

Glad to oblige.

Heh, I guess you can tell I’ve been fighting this same fight for many years too! Wot you said … “I do not find myself in everything, but a lot of it seemed to describe me” was well put. I felt the article read like T women were boys in girls’ bodies, and well, sorry, I’m not. I’m not rubbishing the article though, like I say, it’s hard to write this sort of thing without generalisations that won’t fit all of the readership.

Yes, I agree. I’ve always liked being a woman and felt like a woman, not a boy in a girl’s body, and the article did seem to put it a bit this way, but perhaps only because of the stereotypes out there that would make a T woman feel this way?

I don’t want to take credit for ‘fighting the fight’, as I never had a mom like yours. My parents accepted me for who I was and I was never made to feel like I had to fit some stereotype. It was not until I became a mother that I started questioning my ‘unfeminine’ ways. Other moms I knew seemed to melt with a baby in their arms, telling me this was the best thing ever. But when I first held my baby, I was thinking: ‘OK, you’re cute and all, but when will you grow up so we can climb trees, go swimming and hiking, and disagree on political issues?’ As I understood from reading and talking to people, a lot of dads feel this way, but not that many moms.

 

[jman507]

With regard to gender roles and stereotypes, I’d refer back to the idea of the fence by Chesterton. If you are walking around, then all of see a fence that you didn’t expect, you should say this is useless, let’s tear it down. Fences don’t build themselves, and typically someone will not build a fence for no reason. The next step is to understand why that fence is there. Perhaps it should have never been put up, perhaps it’s usefulness is done with now, or perhaps it really ought to be up. I don’t think you want to tear down the fence and realize that there was a bull just out of sight, and is now eyeing you.

Gender roles should be appreciated. One doesn’t need to make them be an unbending stereotype. Once you get the feel for why they are there, then you could then make a decent decision as to what you should keep with high regard, and with what you could just disregard.

 

[Litcrit]

With regard to gender roles and stereotypes, I’d refer back to the idea of the fence by Chesterton. If you are walking around, then all of see a fence that you didn’t expect, you should say this is useless, let’s tear it down. Fences don’t build themselves, and typically someone will not build a fence for no reason. The next step is to understand why that fence is there. Perhaps it should have never been put up, perhaps it’s usefulness is done with now, or perhaps it really ought to be up. I don’t think you want to tear down the fence and realize that there was a bull just out of sight, and is now eyeing you.

Gender roles should be appreciated. One doesn’t need to make them be an unbending stereotype. Once you get the feel for why they are there, then you could then make a decent decision as to what you should keep with high regard, and with what you could just disregard.

Excellent post, I fully agree with everything you wrote.

BUT… The bolded part is exactly what I’m afraid I’m unable to do, and what I was posing as the question!

Do you have an answer?

All I know for sure is that women give birth and breastfeed. If you give birth, you’re a woman (so the ‘man’ who gave birth a while ago and appeared in all the news is in fact a woman, though ‘he’ may feel otherwise, e.g.). Other than that, I’m not sure I can make any sure ‘rules’, although we all ‘know’ that some personal traits, interests, preferences like colors, clothes, etc., are globally more ‘feminine’ or ‘masculine’, right?

So to what extent is one to follow these global guidelines in order to be what God wants them to be? I often move like a man, walk like a man, wear traditionally masculine colors, etc. Should I try harder to change that? It’s only too easy to say ‘God made me this way’, because homosexuals and transgendered people say the same, right? That’s my concern

 

[blessedtoo]

My question on ‘giving birth’ and ‘breastfeeding’ was more in line of ‘Can we agree that this is the only part that is certainly a woman’s given role, and other things, like who provides, who like cuddling and thus cuddles more, who is more nurturing, who is the disciplinarian, who helps with math more, are just individual?’ And ‘Can we agree that if I give birth and breastfeed, (and of course give all that is needed to my children in terms of affection - but my husband does that too - if she approaches him for cuddling, he’ll also always pick her up - I’d like these to be gender-neutral things, in my perfect world ) I can refuse to wear high heels and make-up, drink beer out of a bottle, and think analytically instead of empathetically?’

BTW, my mother was an awesome woman and a mother, and also much more cuddly than I am. I remember a game she invented when I was around 5 - she’d chase me around the apartment, and if she caught me, she’d get to cuddle and kiss me, which was the only way she’d get to do that at all. I just never was cuddly, even as a baby. I’d only fall asleep in my crib, with no contact with anyone, for instance. I’m still like that, but I DO CO-SLEEP with my 19mo because SHE NEEDS it. Another obligation I fulfill although it is far from my personal preference.

What an excellent response. Thank you for not being offended by my comments! They were not meant to be insulting or derogatory.

After reading your response, it sounds to me (and really, who am I???) like all is well in your little family. You may want to check out some of the family life and parenting threads because I see these issues frequently discussed. There is a lot of support offered by other mama’s (and dad’s) on parenting issues as well as insightful discussions about the roles each parent plays.

The women I tend to naturally gravitate towards as friends all seem to share the following: they have body language that is more commonly used by men, they don’t wear high heels or make-up or jewelry, they’ll drink beer out of the bottle, they won’t discuss their relationships or feelings in detail (they’ll say: ‘I broke up with X because Y.’ I’ll say: ‘Sorry to hear it’ They’ll say: ‘Yeah. So, anyway, what do you think about…’ ), they won’t discuss cosmetics or clothes or diets. They’ll watch a political show over a soap every time.

I just wanted to add that this description fits nearly every woman I know as well. Granted, I do love to discuss fashion with my daughter-in-law but that is probably because she is in the business and I have a soft spot for pretty clothes. But that constitutes about 2% of the conversations we have and, while she is only in her 20’s, I know she and her girlfriends prefer discussions about more substantial issues.

Again, I think interests change with age. When women are young, perhaps seeking a spouse or considering having children, their discussions may focus on the issues that impact those pursuits. As our children grow more independent of us and need less constant attention, we are able to devote time and energy to other interests.

 

[Litcrit]

What an excellent response. Thank you for not being offended by my comments! They were not meant to be insulting or derogatory.

Ummm… I never get offended by people’s abstract opinions… Does that make me too masculine too?

After reading your response, it sounds to me (and really, who am I???) like all is well in your little family. You may want to check out some of the family life and parenting threads because I see these issues frequently discussed. There is a lot of support offered by other mama’s (and dad’s) on parenting issues as well as insightful discussions about the roles each parent plays.

Thanks, I will.

I do remember Truly Beloved saying (TB, I like you a LOT, and I tend to remember your posts!) that her husband only felt like their DD was ‘fun’ after she was 18mo or so. NO ONE judged him, and that is EXACTLY how I felt with my DD. The only difference is, I’m the mom

I just wanted to add that this description fits nearly every woman I know as well. Granted, I do love to discuss fashion with my daughter-in-law but that is probably because she is in the business and I have a soft spot for pretty clothes. But that constitutes about 2% of the conversations we have and, while she is only in her 20’s, I know she and her girlfriends prefer discussions about more substantial issues.

Again, I think interests change with age. When women are young, perhaps seeking a spouse or considering having children, their discussions may focus on the issues that impact those pursuits. As our children grow more independent of us and need less constant attention, we are able to devote time and energy to other interests.

Thank you for your perspective! Unfortunately, you’re not a ‘typical’ woman either! Nor are your friends! Just kidding…

 

[Litcrit]

And there’s other stuff too…

Like men’s deodorants, perfumes, and shower gels all say ‘energy, activity, purity’, while women’s say ‘heavy nauseating sensuality’ or ‘pale light floral nothingness’. Needless to say, I always get ‘male’ scented stuff and then feel like a freak

 

[sanctamaria17]

Yeah, I like the manly smells, too, hahahaha. They smell clean and strong and I like muskiness. Some of my favorite smells are guys’ cologne. So don’t feel like a freak

 

[Just_wondering]

Other moms I knew seemed to melt with a baby in their arms, telling me this was the best thing ever. But when I first held my baby, I was thinking: ‘OK, you’re cute and all, but when will you grow up so we can climb trees, go swimming and hiking, and disagree on political issues?’ As I understood from reading and talking to people, a lot of dads feel this way, but not that many moms.

I’m not even a mom yet, and I feel this way. When I get married, I’m going to be an instant stepmom, and part of me is excited because I get to start at the fun parts first with the two girls. But then, I’m interested to have a few more and figure out once and for all whether I prefer the older ages. As a teacher, though, I know that I prefer kids once they reach the age of 8 or so and start developing all sorts of great interests that we can explore.

But then, both my parents felt this way about us. I remember not feeling that close to my parents when we were younger - my mom was more than happy to enroll us in daycare in the younger years - but having a wonderful time once we could debate politics and tell jokes at the dinner table. My mom did the unusual thing of staying home with us when we were in school but not when we were toddlers, and I think it worked for us.

 

[magic_stick]

I would LOVE to go back to work and have my husband stay home with the baby when the baby is born (I know he would love to take care of the baby), but he makes more money than me so it wouldn’t make sense. I am not a “baby/child/kid” person, however, my husband loves kids so having him stay home would be ideal. I just don’t know how it’s going to work with me taking care of a baby. Sometimes I think to myself that if it’s that bad, I can pack myself up and take the next flight out of town. Not that I would do it, but knowing there are options out there makes me feel better about the situation. I even told my husband this. Terrible, I know!

 

[SeekerJen]

I would LOVE to go back to work and have my husband stay home with the baby when the baby is born (I know he would love to take care of the baby), but he makes more money than me so it wouldn’t make sense. I am not a “baby/child/kid” person, however, my husband loves kids so having him stay home would be ideal. I just don’t know how it’s going to work with me taking care of a baby. Sometimes I think to myself that if it’s that bad, I can pack myself up and take the next flight out of town. Not that I would do it, but knowing there are options out there makes me feel better about the situation. I even told my husband this. Terrible, I know!

I hear you. Babies terrify me and I never know what to do with toddlers. I keep telling DH that I want us to adopt older kids, but he’s adamant that we want to adopt young babies. However, I’m the one who’s planning to be a professor in this household, so maybe I can convince him to stay home with babies. He’s so much better with kids than I am, and kids flock to him.

 

[dessert]

I just read the article, very interesting, I never heard these terms before. I have started piano lessons and so now I know she is a T-teacher. We thought she was cold but I can see she is just thinking alot. She seems aloof but when I get warm towards her she seems more relaxed. She is very business like but our group will more than likely learn better, but so far two have dropped out.

 

[dessert]

I’ve come to terms with the fact that I’ll be earning money (university prof) and my dh will be taking care of kids (high school graduate night musician/hobby fishing ) This reflects our wants, needs, characteristics, talents, EVERYTHING! So I’ve always been OK with this, except for an evening when I read some people’s opinions on CAF that men are providers and women are nurturers Well… My DH is the nurturing one… while I’m the only one that’s capable and willing and deliriously HAPPY to provide, so

Where I DO have a problem is how unlike a ‘typical’ woman I am! Ummm… WHAT IS a 'typical woman? I HATE anything having to do with love stories and love problems and relationships and my friends telling me about those! I mostly hang out with men, and discuss politics, history, anthropology, etc. with them. I only can stand hanging out with women who are very masculine and ONLY talk politics, history, anthropology, etc.

I’m NOT cuddly. I like roughhousing with my toddler, and chasing her, and throwing her up in the air, but I HATE cuddling her and putting her down to sleep, and comforting her… that stuff is BORING. My dh is much more cuddly, but she chooses ME for this stuff… WHY?!? Because I still breastfeed her?

I like wearing clothes men would wear too. I actually wore my grandfathers’ (both of them) clothes when I was a teen. I did NOT want to be sexually appealing to men. I wanted to discuss things with them, and my accidentally being a girl got in the way

I’m still much like that, actually. My clothes aren’t really all that baggy anymore, or previously owned by dead grandfathers, but they’re still stuff guys would wear too - except the very long skirts I sometimes wear. I never seem to act quite like a woman, my husband tells me. I still only care about ‘men’s’ topics and get bored to death if a mom starts talking diapers or teething.

At what point does this become a sin? To what extent are we obliged to accept our gender roles? WHAT are our gender roles, anyway? If I give birth and breastfeed, is that enough from me as a biological woman? (THAT much I can do ) Is anything MORE just a societal construct that I can discard?

How can you not be cuddlly when breast feeding? I think you are to hard on yourself. These are some hard questions you have. Have a group family hug together.

 

[Julianna]

Litcrit…as total ENFJ…you sound like someone I would love to know. Down to earth, passionate, always asking the question. I’m a jeans and t shirt gal. At 50, it suits me. I work in a auto garage with men all day and I love it! I have had occasion to go to an office with mostly women and I can’t wait to get out of there…it sounds like a turkey house!

I love my office. I have to clean the floor more often because the mechanics are in and out all the time. I don’t mind. I love wearing jeans to work and I actually have found “pink” steel-toe shoes. (my way of injecting a feminine touch).

I’m not into discussing recipes, diapers, fashion, make-up. I don’t cook, DH has cooked our entire marriage. I am F because of my “empath” nature. I do cuddle my kids…now they are grown…and I enjoy spending time with my 4 yr old grand daughter and we don’t bake cookies or play dress up.

I enjoy discussing politics, social justice, the economy and yes religion. I don’t care for beer, but I love Smirnoff Ice right out of the bottle. I also like a cold white zinfindel every once in a while.

You are fine! Enjoy who you are! You are in good company.

My DH retires in 3 yrs. I am looking forward to him being a house-husband, he is very good at it. I have many friends who have house-husbands and they run the house like a Swiss watch!

 

[whatevergirl]

Litcrit…as total ENFJ…you sound like someone I would love to know. Down to earth, passionate, always asking the question. I’m a jeans and t shirt gal. At 50, it suits me. I work in a auto garage with men all day and I love it! I have had occasion to go to an office with mostly women and I can’t wait to get out of there…it sounds like a turkey house!

I love my office. I have to clean the floor more often because the mechanics are in and out all the time. I don’t mind. I love wearing jeans to work and I actually have found “pink” steel-toe shoes. (my way of injecting a feminine touch).

I’m not into discussing recipes, diapers, fashion, make-up. I don’t cook, DH has cooked our entire marriage. I am F because of my “empath” nature. I do cuddle my kids…now they are grown…and I enjoy spending time with my 4 yr old grand daughter and we don’t bake cookies or play dress up.

I enjoy discussing politics, social justice, the economy and yes religion. I don’t care for beer, but I love Smirnoff Ice right out of the bottle. I also like a cold white zinfindel every once in a while.

You are fine! Enjoy who you are! You are in good company.

My DH retires in 3 yrs. I am looking forward to him being a house-husband, he is very good at it. I have many friends who have house-husbands and they run the house like a Swiss watch!

lol–it sounds like a turkey house…hahahaha!

that’s funny!

I’m in a male dominated industry, but there are some women on our ‘team,’ and honestly…the men do not fret nearly a tenth as much, as what some of these women nitpick at. I am glad too that I work with more men. They can gossip at times too…I hear them, but they get over things quicker. I market for a few women, and I feel like they require such long explanations of why I did something a certain way… Whereas, I will market the same thing for the men I work around, and they are fine with it. It’s like…whatever. I just try to go with the flow. But, it’s an interesting dynamic. I try to befriend all women I work with–that tends to make things easier.

 

[Litcrit]

How can you not be cuddlly when breast feeding? I think you are to hard on yourself. These are some hard questions you have. Have a group family hug together.

Thank you. I do cuddle my child and often even enjoy it, but obviously need it much less than my toddler. My first post was written after a day in which my daughter asked to be picked up about 376 times and I could get little done except sit with her on my lap.

Litcrit…as total ENFJ…you sound like someone I would love to know.

You are fine! Enjoy who you are! You are in good company.

My DH retires in 3 yrs. I am looking forward to him being a house-husband, he is very good at it. I have many friends who have house-husbands and they run the house like a Swiss watch!

Thank you so much. My dh is also the tidy one of the two.

 

[gardenswithkids]

I think you are being hard on yourself and society for “gender roles” that don’t fit your personality.

As the Myers-Brigg personality profile shows people often fall outside of the “average” or “norm” for their gender in some areas. There is no single male or female personality. Myers Briggs looks at four different areas and catorgorizes into 16 personality profiles that aren’t restricted by gender. We are not all the same, yet we are all human. Men and women *are *different, yet we have much in common. I think sometimes people who suffer from “gender confusion” are partly confused because our society won’t accept the similarities they share with the opposite sex.

I grew up with a woman who sounds a lot like you. She went into a male dominated profession and did well. She married a man whose personality compliments hers well. (It sounds like you did too.) When I married my husband it became very clear to me that woman I knew who was more “masculine” than most women wasn’t “manly” at all. I can’t exactly explain the differences between men and women, but I can tell you I’ve spent many years of marriage and raising boys trying to figure out it out.

I find it the differences between men and women rather fascinating. Despite having gender stereotypes, our society tries to tell us there is no difference. People who don’t fit the stereotype still often feel different. Non-politically correct studies now confirm that there are differences between male brains and female brains, but those studies also show men and women may be more like the opposite sex in some areas of their brain.

If we look below the brain, we see more obvious differences between men and women. Yet we see more similarities because we are all human.