Gene Fadness, ex-Mormon, on Catholic Answers

[Jay53]

When he went to the Temple, he promised never to speak of Temple matters outside Temple walls. That is, he promised not to discuss the ceremony or script.

I have NO idea whether he broke that promise or not, but that’s the promise he made.

Sorry for the idiotic question, but what is it that goes on in the Temple? (or is that what you’re not supposed to talk about?). Would the “ceremony and script” be something similar to the Catholic Mass and the literal words of the liturgy?

(Please note that this is a genuine question. My impression is that the Temple is where Mormon sacraments are celebrated (similar to Catholic Mass and sacraments, i.e. weddings, baptism, etc.) and the meeting houses are just buildings where Mormons meet to discuss whatever (similar to Bible study))

 

[dianaiad]

dianaiad;5871646:

I don’t have any problem discussing the temple ceremony now that I am no longer Mormon. I don’t consider it a sacred trust at all. This is much different than a priest and confession in which the intimate details of a person’s life and reputation are on the line. Two very different things that you can’t compare. The Mormon Church’s pretense that the temple ceremony is sacred and must not be discussed is made under the false pretense from the point of view of Mormonism that the temple ceremony is “true.”

I’m quite certain that there are ex- Catholic priests out there who feel the same way about the confessional. After all, if somebody confessed that he had hurt someone, or murdered someone, and the priest left the church, why shouldn’t he feel justified in telling the police? What would hold him back, except a promise he made at the time he believed that his church was true?

Does that make breaking that promise right?

Your promise was not to the church, y’know. It was to God and to your own honor. So you justify your actions to yourself and others all you want to, but you need to understand that if you will break a promise of that nature because you no longer believe that the Temple ceremonies are 'true," and thus feel fine in betraying the trust of those who do, then…what else would you betray if you suddenly decide something else is true or not true?

I would never trust you. Not because you are no longer LDS–people leave. That just happens. But people who consider promises like that to be conditional? Nope. Sorry.

 

[Javl]

Dianaiad:

I have asked this question before on another thread of an LSD but have never received an
answer. Can you please tell me why LDS’s are required to wear special LDS undergarments and why do they use “secret” handshakes? Thank you.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[dianaiad]

Sorry for the idiotic question, but what is it that goes on in the Temple? (or is that what you’re not supposed to talk about?). Would the “ceremony and script” be something similar to the Catholic Mass and the literal words of the liturgy?

(Please note that this is a genuine question. My impression is that the Temple is where Mormon sacraments are celebrated (similar to Catholic Mass and sacraments, i.e. weddings, baptism, etc.) and the meeting houses are just buildings where Mormons meet to discuss whatever (similar to Bible study))

Kinda. Sorta…

In the Temple we recieve information (that we already know about from elsewhere…you are free to check that yourself; the ceremonies are available online) that is presented in a very, very, VERY ritualistic manner; we are told the story of humanity and salvation. We promise to observe a strict law of virtue and chastity, to be charitable, tolerant, pure, to spread the gospel and be good examples, to seek truth, and to use all our talents in the service of the Lord. We perform proxy baptisms for those who have died before us.
We get married for ‘time and all eternity,’ rather than until 'death parts us."

It is a very scripted, very liturgical, incredibly ceremonial event–about as different from a standard Sunday Sacrament meeting as it is liable to get.

On the other hand, Sacrament meetings on Sunday, while they are far more informal, also have an element of ritual; we always begin with the taking of the Sacrament, (discussed elsewhere, I think) where the prayers are very set, as is the manner of taking the bread and water. After THAT, (takes anywhere from 10 to 10 minutes, depending upon the number of people there) it becomes very different. “Talks” are given by members of the congregation (the Bishop hardly ever speaks) we sing two or three songs, and that’s pretty much it. The rest of the Sunday IS 'bible study."

 

[Jay53]

Kinda. Sorta…

In the Temple we recieve information (that we already know about from elsewhere…you are free to check that yourself; the ceremonies are available online) that is presented in a very, very, VERY ritualistic manner; we are told the story of humanity and salvation. We promise to observe a strict law of virtue and chastity, to be charitable, tolerant, pure, to spread the gospel and be good examples, to seek truth, and to use all our talents in the service of the Lord. We perform proxy baptisms for those who have died before us.
We get married for ‘time and all eternity,’ rather than until 'death parts us."

It is a very scripted, very liturgical, incredibly ceremonial event–about as different from a standard Sunday Sacrament meeting as it is liable to get.

On the other hand, Sacrament meetings on Sunday, while they are far more informal, also have an element of ritual; we always begin with the taking of the Sacrament, (discussed elsewhere, I think) where the prayers are very set, as is the manner of taking the bread and water. After THAT, (takes anywhere from 10 to 10 minutes, depending upon the number of people there) it becomes very different. “Talks” are given by members of the congregation (the Bishop hardly ever speaks) we sing two or three songs, and that’s pretty much it. The rest of the Sunday IS 'bible study."

Thank you for the information.

 

[PaulDupre]

Dianaiad:

I have asked this question before on another thread of an LSD but have never received an
answer. Can you please tell me why LDS’s are required to wear special LDS undergarments and why do they use “secret” handshakes? Thank you.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

You’ll never get an answer from an active LDS on that. That’s part of what they promise not to reveal (else they’ll get their throats slit and their hearts torn from their chests and their bowels ripped out).

But, Brigham Young taught (and the endowment ceremony still says) that the handshakes and passwords, called signs and tokens, are

“necessary for you, after you have departed this life, to enable you to walk back to the presence of the Father, passing the angels who stand as sentinels, being enabled to give them the key words, the signs and tokens”.

So when you try to get into heaven, the angels will ask you for the secret handshakes and passwords. If you can’t give them the handshakes and passwords (or if you forget them) you will be turned away. Does that sound like Christianity to you? Or is it more like gnosticism?

Paul (a former Mormon)

 

[Ghosty]

Would you expect a Catholic priest who leaves Catholicism to keep his vows respecting the confessional?

I don’t expect much from such a person. I pray for God’s mercy.

I understand your beliefs. I understand that you do not respect mine. However, what makes you think that someone who breaks a promise made to God (even regarding a religion you don’t respect) would not break one made in relationship to Catholicism?

I don’t “think” that anyone will avoid sin. I just pray for myself and for everyone else. Obviously, by accepting Catholicism, this man doesn’t believe that he made any promises to God with regards to Mormonism. Just as I don’t expect someone who doesn’t believe in God to honor promises made to Him, I don’t expect someone who no longer believes in the Mormon God to honor promises made to him. I also don’t expect a Hindu convert to Catholicism or Mormonism to honor promises made to Shiva or Vishnu.

On the contrary, I would question the credibility of anyone who supposedly renounced false gods and beliefs, but still held to the promises they made to them.

I’m sorry if my bluntness hurts you, because my intention isn’t to hurt anyone and it pains me if I hurt anyone when it isn’t warranted. I do want to properly convey my understanding of the Catholic teaching on Mormonism, however.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Pug]

I was going to check his program out…but he truly discusses the Temple ceremony?

Why would anyone trust someone who would do that?

There have been a few Catholic priests who converted to Mormonism…and they were NOT considered free to divulge things said to them in Confession as a result of the religion change. This sort of thing is important. Why would anyone trust someone who would break a sacred promise?

I listened to all but the last few minutes of the program linked above. I don’t recall him saying much about what happens in an LDS **temple except to talk about recommends, which is not a secret. Many LDS do not have one. He also mentioned that there is a veil in a Mormon temple that one can walk through. Perhaps that is a secret, I don’t know. He mentioned that to chain into mentioning the rending of the temple veil, mentioned in the bible. That was about when Jesus died on the cross. His point wasn’t to discuss the details of temple ordinance ceremonies.

Maybe if I knew more, I would have understood what he did and didn’t reveal about a current LDS temple. But it didn’t seem too revealing to me. But I don’t have a transcript, either. Just my memory.

 

[dianaiad]

Dianaiad:

I have asked this question before on another thread of an LSD but have never received an
answer. Can you please tell me why LDS’s are required to wear special LDS undergarments and why do they use “secret” handshakes? Thank you.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

We wear the undergarments for many of the same reasons you, as Catholics, might wear scapulars, or necklaces with crosses, or carry symbols of Saints, or carry (and use) a rosary. The symbols on them, and the garments themselves (being worn next to the skin and under our outer clothing) remind us of the promises we made in the Temple.

As for the “handshakes,” everything we do in the Temple is symbolic of something we either learn, or promise. I could ask you why you turn to the person next to you during Mass and shake hands in order to wish them peace (or in this time of the swine flu scare, nod or wave or something) …or why you kneel at certain times; everything is symbolic of something that we believe is important to remember, or to promise.

 

[Arandur]

So? The important stuff is not.

The “important stuff” is the absolution. That’s discussed. The particulars of the sins are not important, except to recommend ways of avoiding future sin.

And that part is discussed. What we teach is discussed. The scripts are online and freely available to anyone who has NOT made a promise not to discuss them. There isn’t a teaching in the Temple that cannot be discussed, and is not discussed. The script and ceremony–precisely what we do and how we do it–that is sacred to me and I will not discuss them. Nor will I put myself in a situation where I might have to do that. It’s important to me.

Gene made passing mention of the veil and I think a couple of other items (briefly, in the same sentence or two).

It should be important to everybody. It’s a matter of…credibility, I suppose. Someone who will break that promise simply because he no longer believes entirely in the context will break a promise/confidence of anything or anybody, because if he doesn’t hold a promise like that sacred, then he holds nothing at all to be sacred, in the long run.

Sacred confidence is held by both parties in recognition of truth between them. If you found out that your promise to someone was based on a deception that person made with you, would you still keep that promise of confidence? What if it were a dangerous deception that the person was trying to draw others into, as well?

Again, I don’t see a reason why the personal confidence of a sinner in a confessional is a matter that could affect someone else’s faith or understanding of truth. It is irrelevant. The forms, ritual, and theology behind the Sacrament are very relevant, and are freely discussed.

With religions, what is practiced and taught should be freely discussed. Particularly if something practiced or taught one considers to be false or misleading, therefore leading away from God in some way.

If a gnostic group or semi-secret society, manifested recently perhaps most strongly in Masonry of the last century or two or Scientology today (with its inner circles), sought vows before God to hold in confidence their inner rituals, and those inner rituals (which they seek to draw people into) are false or misleading, are you saying someone who leaves such a group should not reveal such things by shining the light of truth upon them? To show others what is hidden, what they are getting into, or just what is true?

 

[PaulDupre]

As for the “handshakes,” everything we do in the Temple is symbolic of something we either learn, or promise. I could ask you why you turn to the person next to you during Mass and shake hands in order to wish them peace (or in this time of the swine flu scare, nod or wave or something) …or why you kneel at certain times; everything is symbolic of something that we believe is important to remember, or to promise.

Modernist Mormons may try to reduce everything to mere symbols, but the text of the endowment itself teaches that you actually need the signs and tokens to get into heaven.

The prophets also spoke often of the practical necessity of knowing the signs and tokens:

“Will you abide our counsel? I say again, my soul for any man’s, if they will abide our counsel, that they will go right into heaven. We have the signs and token to give to the porter at the door, and he will let us in” (History of the Church 7:240).

“Those who are counted worthy to dwell with the Father and the Son have previously received an education fitting them for that society; they have been made fully acquainted with every pass-word, token and sign which have enabled them to pass by the porters through the doors into the celestial kingdom” (Journal of Discourses 10:172).

“Joseph always told us that we would have to pass by sentinels that are placed between us and our Father and God. Then, of course, we are conducted along from this probation to other probations, or from one dispensation to another, by those who conducted those dispensations” (Journal of Discourses 6:63)."

Mormons will tell non-members that it’s all symbolic, so it doesn’t sound as psycho as it really is. Then after you join, they tell you the ugly truth - you really have to learn the passwords to get into the secret tree fort.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

I was going to check his program out…but he truly discusses the Temple ceremony?

Why would anyone trust someone who would do that?

There have been a few Catholic priests who converted to Mormonism…and they were NOT considered free to divulge things said to them in Confession as a result of the religion change. This sort of thing is important. Why would anyone trust someone who would break a sacred promise?

Dianaiad;

What a red herring. I listened to the whole broadcast. He didn’t discuss any specifics about any temple ceremony. He responded to a question by a caller who asked why it is that LDS members believe that there is a need for a temple when Jesus’ one sacrifice obviated the need for temple sacrifice. He agreed that there is no longer a need for a temple, that indeed Christians believe that we are all temples indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

I tend to agree with the guest. It also seems to be a bit gnostic in its application. So, without putting too much on the subject, I’d like to know WHY the LDS Church feels that what “happens in the temple stays in the temple.” Are we all just the great unwashed who would not really understand what it is that happens at the veil?

Peace,
Robert

 

[Catholic20064]

Dianaiad;

What a red herring. I listened to the whole broadcast. He didn’t discuss any specifics about any temple ceremony. He responded to a question by a caller who asked why it is that LDS members believe that there is a need for a temple when Jesus’ one sacrifice obviated the need for temple sacrifice. He agreed that there is no longer a need for a temple, that indeed Christians believe that we are all temples indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

I tend to agree with the guest. It also seems to be a bit gnostic in its application. So, without putting too much on the subject, I’d like to know WHY the LDS Church feels that what “happens in the temple stays in the temple.” Are we all just the great unwashed who would not really understand what it is that happens at the veil?

Peace,
Robert

Basically in the temple at the veil in the temple you are asked to give a grip of the holy priesthood and then repeat back the words, “Health in the naval, marrow in the bones, strength in the loins and in the sinews. Power in the priesthood be upon me and upon my posterity through all generations of time and throughout all eternity.”

Real important stuff that you have to know to get into heaven! It’s about the equivalent of a masonic lodge or a boys club initiation ceremony.

 

[AnAtheist]

Confessions of one’s sins to a priest or a therapist, for that matter, is protected by law.

Revealing a personal confession is entirely different from revealing religious ceremonies or rituals.

What does Mormonism have to hide?

That is not the point. What dianaiad tries to explain in vain is that this guy has probably talked about something while under a sacred oath not to do that. It is exactly the same thing as talking about contents of someone’s confession. Someone who does that breaks an oath not to reveil certain things from a religious context.
This inability (or unwillingness) to abstract one’s own rituals, habits, beliefs, ceremonies and see the similarities in other religions is really remarkable.

 

[Catholic20064]

That is not the point. What dianaiad tries to explain in vain is that this guy has probably talked about something while under a sacred oath not to do that. It is exactly the same thing as talking about contents of someone’s confession. Someone who does that breaks an oath not to reveil certain things from a religious context.
This inability (or unwillingness) to abstract one’s own rituals, habits, beliefs, ceremonies and see the similarities in other religions is really remarkable.

I believe the Mormon god to be a false god. What validity does an oath to a false god have?

When a priest receives a confession he is not under oath just to God to keep it private. He is in essence under oath to the person from whom he receives the confession to keep it private. God is not the only one involved and it is simple courtesy to the real person who made the confession to keep it private. I don’t feel any reason to be a party to hiding the blasphemy of the Mormon temple ceremony from the public. Nobody will be hurt if I reveal the contents of the Mormon temple ceremony. An ex-priest who breaks his oath of privacy with regards to a confession is hurting the person who made the confession. Big difference.

I don’t see why a Mormon should be embarrassed about the contents of the temple ceremony. There is simply nothing in the Mormon temple ceremony which hasn’t already been revealed on the internet or in print publications. There is nothing in there which is significant. Even the initiation ceremony isn’t much different from the rite of welcome new Catholics experience at this time of year.

 

[Javl]

PaulDupre & Dianaiad:

I thank you both for your answers.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[AnAtheist]

I believe the Mormon god to be a false god. What validity does an oath to a false god have?

What god is regarded to be a true one cannot be the basis of an argument. Your god is a as true or false as theirs.

I don’t see why a Mormon should be embarrassed about the contents of the temple ceremony.

Well, I don’t see why intelligent people get embarressed over a lot of religious things, like eating pork, taking a host back home, bump into a cow, females becoming priests…
If Mormons want to keep something about their ceremonies secret and as long that doesn’t hurt anybody, I don’t care. It is their business for whatever crazy reason.

 

[cthulhubryan]

Dianaiad;

What a red herring. I listened to the whole broadcast. He didn’t discuss any specifics about any temple ceremony. He responded to a question by a caller who asked why it is that LDS members believe that there is a need for a temple when Jesus’ one sacrifice obviated the need for temple sacrifice. He agreed that there is no longer a need for a temple, that indeed Christians believe that we are all temples indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

I think that Diana was just asking IF he disclosed anything about Temple ceremony.

 

[gamewell45]

That is not the point. What dianaiad tries to explain in vain is that this guy has probably talked about something while under a sacred oath not to do that. It is exactly the same thing as talking about contents of someone’s confession. Someone who does that breaks an oath not to reveil certain things from a religious context.
This inability (or unwillingness) to abstract one’s own rituals, habits, beliefs, ceremonies and see the similarities in other religions is really remarkable.

I agree with you. Whether its done in a house of worship or in a public building or even on a person to person basis, I’ll go on to say anytime you make a promise, take an oath or obligation, you are bound to honor it. Anything else violates your character and Honor/integrity & I would never, ever trust in that person again, especially in a Religious/Fraternal context.

Just my two cents.

 

[Catholic20064]

I agree with you. Whether its done in a house of worship or in a public building or even on a person to person basis, I’ll go on to say anytime you make a promise, take an oath or obligation, you are bound to honor it. Anything else violates your character and Honor/integrity & I would never, ever trust in that person again, especially in a Religious/Fraternal context.

Just my two cents.

I also agreed to give all of my time, talents and possessions to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for the building of the Kingdom of God. Am I bound by that oath as well? I think when the LDS Church forced me to terminate my membership with them under duress that they broke their contract with me and their God.