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cthulhubryan
Guest
I do truly pity you. If you are so weak that you truly believe that God would lie to His creation then I feel pity for you.
Jesus (Very God of Very God) said that He would build His Church on Peter and the gates of Hell would never prevail against it. There was no apostasy.
I know that you learned that there was an apostasy, because the false prophets of whom we were warned have to change the Word of God in order to deceive others with the words of man.
Trust in the Lord. He does not lie. He is not like the liar Brigham Young who taught that men can become gods while ignoring the Bible and even the book of mormon where it says there is one god (Mormon 9:9-11)
God created a Church. One Church. It survives until today. It is the Catholic Church.
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Gene_Fadness
Guest
Zerinus,
I want to be encouraged by your statement that the Mormon Church may be backing away from earlier declarations about men progressing to be gods of their own worlds. And I do recall Gordon B. Hinckley really backing away from a question he got from Larry King on the topic.
However, many other “prophets, seers and revelators” other than than Joseph Smith taught – as recently as Bruce R. McConkie and Milton R. Hunter – that men could become gods of their worlds. And I will never forget sitting in the Solemn Assembly room of the Salt Lake Temple in 1979 and listening to Elder O. Leslie Stone tell us that if we remained faithful to our temple covenants, we would stand to inherit our own worlds to “procreate and to rule in righteousness.” That was a quote worthy of my journal.
But I do know that the church will sometimes reverse earlier prophets’ teachings. I was on my mission in Australia in 1978 when Spencer W. Kimball announced a revelation reversing the church’s ban on black men being ordained to the priesthood. I literally shed tears of joy. And we’ve seen the church renounce (to the point of excommunicating) anyone who practices polygamy.
I have also seen an entire church – the Worldwide Church of God – renounce many of its beliefs including its refusal to believe in the Trinity – and transform itself into a Trinitarian Christian church. So God can work wonders!
My apologies for the refence to a Council at Athanasia. Athanasius was an early bishop whose teachings became the basis for the Athanasian Creed, though it was probably written by St. Ambrose. And I realize Nicea wasn’t the earliest Council. Church councils go all the way back to the Book of Acts when St.Paul and St. Peter differed over the standing of Gentiles in the church. And while there were differences even among followers of Arias, the Arian heresy did indeed render Jesus a secondary God; teaching that he could not be fully human and fully God. Even Wikepedia says that much. Sometimes, my friend, I get the impression that you just look for anything that you can contest to “one up” whomever you are debating.
As far as paragraph 460 in the Catechism teaching that men may become gods, do you think that would have been included in a 1990s edition if the Catechism if the church taught or believed that humans could become Gods in the same literal sense as God the Father? Notice the lower case “g” on gods.
I want to be encouraged by your statement that the Mormon Church may be backing away from earlier declarations about men progressing to be gods of their own worlds. And I do recall Gordon B. Hinckley really backing away from a question he got from Larry King on the topic.
However, many other “prophets, seers and revelators” other than than Joseph Smith taught – as recently as Bruce R. McConkie and Milton R. Hunter – that men could become gods of their worlds. And I will never forget sitting in the Solemn Assembly room of the Salt Lake Temple in 1979 and listening to Elder O. Leslie Stone tell us that if we remained faithful to our temple covenants, we would stand to inherit our own worlds to “procreate and to rule in righteousness.” That was a quote worthy of my journal.
But I do know that the church will sometimes reverse earlier prophets’ teachings. I was on my mission in Australia in 1978 when Spencer W. Kimball announced a revelation reversing the church’s ban on black men being ordained to the priesthood. I literally shed tears of joy. And we’ve seen the church renounce (to the point of excommunicating) anyone who practices polygamy.
I have also seen an entire church – the Worldwide Church of God – renounce many of its beliefs including its refusal to believe in the Trinity – and transform itself into a Trinitarian Christian church. So God can work wonders!
My apologies for the refence to a Council at Athanasia. Athanasius was an early bishop whose teachings became the basis for the Athanasian Creed, though it was probably written by St. Ambrose. And I realize Nicea wasn’t the earliest Council. Church councils go all the way back to the Book of Acts when St.Paul and St. Peter differed over the standing of Gentiles in the church. And while there were differences even among followers of Arias, the Arian heresy did indeed render Jesus a secondary God; teaching that he could not be fully human and fully God. Even Wikepedia says that much. Sometimes, my friend, I get the impression that you just look for anything that you can contest to “one up” whomever you are debating.
As far as paragraph 460 in the Catechism teaching that men may become gods, do you think that would have been included in a 1990s edition if the Catechism if the church taught or believed that humans could become Gods in the same literal sense as God the Father? Notice the lower case “g” on gods.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
zerinus has his own religion going. The new Gospel Principles manual, recently rewritten and published, enforces mormon belief that they will be gods.
- • What are some blessings that will be given to those who are exalted?
Those who receive exaltation in the celestial kingdom through faith in Jesus Christ will receive special blessings. The Lord has promised, “All things are theirs” (D&C 76:59). These are some of the blessings given to exalted people:
- They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76:62).
- They will become gods (see D&C 132:20–23).
- They will be united eternally with their righteous family members and will be able to have eternal increase.
- They will receive a fulness of joy.
- They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have—all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge (see D&C 132:19–20). President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: “The Father has promised through the Son that all that he has shall be given to those who are obedient to His commandments. They shall increase in knowledge, wisdom, and power, going from grace to grace, until the fulness of the perfect day shall burst upon them” (Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols. [1954–56], 2:36; italics in original).
Joseph Smith taught: “It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God. … He was once a man like us; … God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith [1976], 345–46).
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TheosisM
Guest
Way to avoid the response. We have already seen that you 1) misrepresent the Catholic view of the Mass and 2) that you misrepresent the traditional Christian belief on the Trinity. What’s next?
You were flat out wrong in your description of the Trinity (three persons coming together as one person, and creating a false dichotomy between what “being” means, and how the council in question described the oneness of the Persons (i.e. being of the same ‘stuff’, which is exactly what we mean by “being”, since it is used interchangeably with “substance” and “essence”, right in the Nicene Creed itself)), so the optical illusion is only in the caricature version of Catholicism/traditional Christianity that you know.
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TheosisM
Guest
So you fully know God right now? If you do, that god is an idol, not the eternal God.
What is “life eternal” referring to?
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TheosisM
Guest
Zerinus is a sola scriptura Mormon. If it’s not in the standard works, the blinders go up. It’s fun to watch.
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Answersplease
Guest
I’ve spent the last few days reading through the various mormon related topics on this website because I was interested in how the dialogue would be between two very different faiths.
I was a mormon for a very long time, former missionary, the works and I have to say that I really don’t like the tone of Zerinus. Sorry man but you come across as extremely arrogant to the point of abrasive. If like some of the other mormon posters on here your goal or objective is to de-convert a few catholics then you’re going about it the wrong way.
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zerinus
Guest
I think you have got all of that wrong. The Mormon Church has always maintained that the official doctrine of the Church is that which is contained in the standard works. Anything that cannot be confirmed by that standard is speculation. The only difference between today and yesterday is that in those days people seemed to have a more speculative streak, and allowed their imagination to get ahead of themselves; whereas today the Church takes a more sober attitude to doctrine, and is careful not to speculate beyond what God has revealed. Now you can knock your head against the wall forever arguing that Mormons have “changed their doctrines,” or “backed away from their earlier teachings;” but it won’t alter the reality of what I have just described.
Discontinuing the practice of polygamy is not a “change in doctrine”. It is a change in practice. There is a difference between the two. The Church still maintains that polygamy is a legitimate practice when God allows it or commands it.
That has nothing to do with us. We are not them, and they are not us.
Arius was a subtle character. He formulated his doctrines in language that was not easy to pin down. Also because his own writings have not survived, his doctrines have to be pieced together from the writings of his opponents which have survived—which is a difficult thing to do accurately. The same Wikipedia article makes this statement: “Because most extant written material on Arianism was written by its opponents, the nature of Arian teachings is difficult to define precisely today.” For this reason you will find that no two authors will give you an identical description of Arius’s teachings. But I have made some research into it, and I think the description I gave is a reasonably accurate one.
Well, this is discussion and debate. What do you expect me to do, roll over and admit that you are right and Mormonism is wrong?
Neither does Mormonism. Mormonism teaches that we become gods; but we still remain subject to God the Father and the Son. We will still be worshipping them as our God, even though we become gods. That is the teaching of Mormonism. It is also the teaching of the Early Church Fathers.
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Jay53
Guest
Neither does Mormonism. Mormonism teaches that we become gods; but we still remain subject to God the Father and the Son. We will still be worshipping them as our God, even though we become gods. That is the teaching of Mormonism. It is also the teaching of the Early Church Fathers.
In what way would we be “subject to God the Father and the Son” (interestingly not the Holy Spirit) if this is true: (emphasis mine, quoted from Rebecca J.'s post)
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zaffiroborant
Guest
It seems to me that number 3 has been toned down quite a bit, it used to read:
Why do you suppose the second sentence was left out?
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zerinus
Guest
Thank you for your question. The best way that I can answer that is to quote exactly what LDS scripture says about that so that you can judge it for yourself. Emphasis has been added for greater clarity:In what way would we be “subject to God the Father and the Son” (interestingly not the Holy Spirit
D&C 76:
50 And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just—
51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—
52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;
53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.
54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.
55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things—
56 They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;
57 And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son.
58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—
59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.
60 And they shall overcome all things.
61 Wherefore, let no man glory in man, but rather let him glory in God, who shall subdue all enemies under his feet.
62 These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.
63 These are they whom he shall bring with him, when he shall come in the clouds of heaven to reign on the earth over his people.
64 These are they who shall have part in the first resurrection.
65 These are they who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just.
66 These are they who are come unto Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly place, the holiest of all.
67 These are they who have come to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of Enoch, and of the Firstborn.
68 These are they whose names are written in heaven, where God and Christ are the judge of all.
69 These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood.
70 These are they whose bodies are celestial, whose glory is that of the sun, even the glory of God, the highest of all, whose glory the sun of the firmament is written of as being typical.
Continued … /
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zerinus
Guest
/… Continued
Here is another passage that relates to the same subject:
D&C 84:
33 For whoso is faithful unto the obtaining these two priesthoods of which I have spoken, and the magnifying their calling, are sanctified by the Spirit unto the renewing of their bodies.
34 They become the sons of Moses and of Aaron and the seed of Abraham, and the church and kingdom, and the elect of God.
35 And also all they who receive this priesthood receive me, saith the Lord;
36 For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;
37 And he that receiveth me receiveth my Father;
38 And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him.
39 And this is according to the oath and covenant which belongeth to the priesthood.
40 Therefore, all those who receive the priesthood, receive this oath and covenant of my Father, which he cannot break, neither can it be moved.
41 But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth therefrom, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come.
42 And wo unto all those who come not unto this priesthood which ye have received, which I now confirm upon you who are present this day, by mine own voice out of the heavens; and even I have given the heavenly hosts and mine angels charge concerning you.
The highlighted passages (especially the underlined bits) should have helped answer your questions without me needing to add further clarification. If any part of it is not clear let me know, and I will explain it further. The language used in the above passages are not much different from biblical passages such as the folloing:
John 17:
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
Romans 8:
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Galatians 3:
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
1 John 3:
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
They all teach the same kind of thing, put in different words.
Here is another passage that relates to the same subject:
D&C 84:
33 For whoso is faithful unto the obtaining these two priesthoods of which I have spoken, and the magnifying their calling, are sanctified by the Spirit unto the renewing of their bodies.
34 They become the sons of Moses and of Aaron and the seed of Abraham, and the church and kingdom, and the elect of God.
35 And also all they who receive this priesthood receive me, saith the Lord;
36 For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;
37 And he that receiveth me receiveth my Father;
38 And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him.
39 And this is according to the oath and covenant which belongeth to the priesthood.
40 Therefore, all those who receive the priesthood, receive this oath and covenant of my Father, which he cannot break, neither can it be moved.
41 But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth therefrom, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come.
42 And wo unto all those who come not unto this priesthood which ye have received, which I now confirm upon you who are present this day, by mine own voice out of the heavens; and even I have given the heavenly hosts and mine angels charge concerning you.
The highlighted passages (especially the underlined bits) should have helped answer your questions without me needing to add further clarification. If any part of it is not clear let me know, and I will explain it further. The language used in the above passages are not much different from biblical passages such as the folloing:
John 17:
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
Romans 8:
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Galatians 3:
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
1 John 3:
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
They all teach the same kind of thing, put in different words.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Who knows why mormons change their doctrinal beliefs?
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Jay53
Guest
Then are you saying that #5 from Rebecca’s post is not correct? Because the way I see it, if #5 is correct:
then I don’t see what distinguishes “us” as gods from “Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ”.
Just for example, you highlighted part of #61 (above):
which would lead one to believe that only God can “subdue all enemies under his feet”. But, if that is the case, then we, as “gods” do* not* have “all power” that “our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have”. God would have the power to subdue enemies that we don’t have.
The portions you highlighted don’t seem to distinguish between us, as gods, and God the Father.
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zerinus
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Jay53
Guest
Ok. Your explanation here makes a little more sense to me, but in turn, it seems that Joseph Fielding Smith’s “paraphrasing” is incorrect then or at least an unwarranted exaggeration of the Mormon scripture.
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zerinus
Guest
It is neither. It is a paraphrase that emphasizes one aspect of the blessings of deification or salvation, such as verse 55: “into whose hands the Father has given all things;” and verse 56: “who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;” and verse 59: “all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs;” and D&C 84:38: “all that my Father hath shall be given unto him;” and deemphasizes the other aspect that teaches that we remain subordinate to the Father and the Son. Those passages have their equivalents or parallels in the Bible too, notably in the verses I had quoted, such as “heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ,” or “heir of God through Christ,” or “we shall be like him,” or “the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one”. They mean essentially the same thing, expressed in different words.
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Jay53
Guest
Ok, that makes no sense to me. Either we “have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have—all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge” and in essence are equal to God or we are not. I fully understand being children of God and heirs etc., but that, in turn, does not mean that we become “gods” and have the same “powers, knowledge, etc” that God has nor do we become equal to God which seems to be what you are saying.
And I also feel the need to point out that the Bible does not teach nor did the Apostles teach that we will become “gods” in the sense that Mormon doctrine portrays.
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Gene_Fadness
Guest
“Well, this is discussion and debate. What do you expect me to do, roll over and admit that you are right and Mormonism is wrong?”
Well, sure that would be great! But, really, you’re getting to be beyond ridiculous. I was not expecting that you wouldn’t continue to comment on the essentials of what we’re debating – the Trinity and man’s destination – but you seem to find little things not essential to the debate and nitpick at them just because you want to be argumentative. You can defend your faith without being so mean-spirited.
It makes it very difficult to engage in any kind of constructive dialogue with you. When I was in the LDS church, we talked frequently about not having a “spirit of contention.” You don’t seem to follow that very well.
Well, sure that would be great! But, really, you’re getting to be beyond ridiculous. I was not expecting that you wouldn’t continue to comment on the essentials of what we’re debating – the Trinity and man’s destination – but you seem to find little things not essential to the debate and nitpick at them just because you want to be argumentative. You can defend your faith without being so mean-spirited.
It makes it very difficult to engage in any kind of constructive dialogue with you. When I was in the LDS church, we talked frequently about not having a “spirit of contention.” You don’t seem to follow that very well.
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