General question to my Eastern Rite brothers/sisters

[Nicea325]

Hello! I belong to the Latin Rite and work for a local Roman Catholic parish in Southern California. Since we are all in communion with Rome, I have quick question to ask. But I first want to say that I really admire and respect the various liturgies from the East. All very beautiful!

Anyway, I was wondering if your particular Rite (Assyrian,Melkite,etc,etc) is experiencing a shortage of priests as in the Latin Rite? I do understand your various rites have married priests,correct me if I am wrong? Are they only allowed to marry before ordination or actually any time they are an ordained priest? I would appreciate your information and website or any source.

God Bless you all.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Hello! I belong to the Latin Rite and work for a local Roman Catholic parish in Southern California. Since we are all in communion with Rome, I have quick question to ask. But I first want to say that I really admire and respect the various liturgies from the East. All very beautiful!

Anyway, I was wondering if your particular Rite (Assyrian,Melkite,etc,etc) is experiencing a shortage of priests as in the Latin Rite? I do understand your various rites have married priests,correct me if I am wrong? Are they only allowed to marry before ordination or actually any time they are an ordained priest? I would appreciate your information and website or any source.

God Bless you all.

The Ukrainian has a wealth of young priests in Ukraine. The average age of Ukrainian priests in the world is 35. Although most of these youthful priests are in Ukraine, so here in North America you may find that the UGCC priests are older.

 

[Nicea325]

The Ukrainian has a wealth of young priests in Ukraine. The average age of Ukrainian priests in the world is 35. Although most of these youthful priests are in Ukraine, so here in North America you may find that the UGCC priests are older.

Interesting. But I am wondering about their shortage and married priests?

 

[ConstantineTG]

Interesting. But I am wondering about their shortage and married priests?

There is no Church-wide shortage, although I can imagine certain areas may have some difficulty getting priests. Our Eparchy for example has “imported” a number of young (and married) priests from Ukraine.

 

[Vico]

Hello! I belong to the Latin Rite and work for a local Roman Catholic parish in Southern California. Since we are all in communion with Rome, I have quick question to ask. But I first want to say that I really admire and respect the various liturgies from the East. All very beautiful!

Anyway, I was wondering if your particular Rite (Assyrian,Melkite,etc,etc) is experiencing a shortage of priests as in the Latin Rite? I do understand your various rites have married priests,correct me if I am wrong? Are they only allowed to marry before ordination or actually any time they are an ordained priest? I would appreciate your information and website or any source.

God Bless you all.

Shortages all around.

Here are eastern Catholic statistics, from Rome, Annuario Pontifico:

cnewa.org/default.aspx?ID=125&pagetypeID=1&sitecode=HQ&pageno=1

 

[5Loaves]

Are they only allowed to marry before ordination or actually any time they are an ordained priest?.

Clergy (deacons and priests) may not marry in the Catholic or Orthodox Churches. Men must marry before they are ordained. If an Orthodox priest has young children when he is widowed there is the possibility for him to receive permission to marry again. I don’t know if this is also the case for Eastern Catholic priests.

 

[Khalid]

The shortage of priests has nothing to do with marriage or lack thereof, even if there is a shortage of priests - vocations are rising again - but has more to do with the poor formation and especially poor seminary experience in the two decades following Vatican II, where many were run by openly heterodox individuals, and taught at by the same. Good, godly formation was looked upon as “pastoral insensitivity” or “spiritual rigidity and unspontaneity”, a disrespect for liturgy (look at many parishes today) and the Holy Eucharist, treating the Holy Order of Priests as an order of “presiders” akin to Protestant Ministers: being opposed to heathen priestesses in the Church of God was equated with “psychological immaturity”. Thank the Lord, this wasn’t all seminaries, and the problem has decreased, from my understanding, greatly in the past decade.

In any Church, priests are never allowed to marry after the first imposition of Holy Orders, whether it by the minor orders or diaconate. But, a man who is married can become a priest; a priest can not marry, nor can he re-marry if he is widowed. Holy Orders are a canonical (and, truly, ontological, as per the indelible mark confirmed by the grace of Ordination) impediment to marriage.

 

[Hesychios]

The concept of ‘shortage’ is relative.

For example, If a church needs one priest for every ten families, and can only find one for every 30 families, that’s a shortage.

Another church might consider such a rate a super-abundance.

So there is the practical concern, of course. A bishop might see vacancies coming up and have to react with positive management decisions. He could pray for a miracle, but more than likely he will also consider closing parishes or importing priests from elsewhere.

Nevertheless, if the question is one for comparison purposes, it isn’t enough to ask if there is a shortage. One could study the laity to priest ratio and get a completely different picture.

For instance, in the Latin Catholic diocese of Chicago, IL USA the ratio is currently about 1,408:1

For the Ruthenian Eparchy of Parma in the USA the ratio is currently about 204:1 !

If the Archdiocese of Chicago had the same hit ratio as the Eparchy of Parma, it would probably turn many candidates away, and lend a portion to mission duties worldwide. Yet, it can be said that the Eparchy of Parma is in a perennial state of shortage of priests!

This Ruthenian shortage has less to do with recruiting methods or policies and practices than it has to do with demographics.

 

[RyanBlack]

In any Church, priests are never allowed to marry after the first imposition of Holy Orders, whether it by the minor orders or diaconate. But, a man who is married can become a priest; a priest can not marry, nor can he re-marry if he is widowed. Holy Orders are a canonical (and, truly, ontological, as per the indelible mark confirmed by the grace of Ordination) impediment to marriage.

This is incorrect, in multiple aspects. First of all, the Orthodox, in limited circumstances, permit widowed deacons and priests with young children to marry. Also, in Catholicism, Holy Orders are indeed a canonical impediment to marriage, but not an ontological impediment. There have been instances in which laicized priests have been permitted by the Holy See to marry. If it were truly the case Holy Orders were an ontological impediment to marriage, then not even the Pope could permit a laicized priest (or deacon, for that matter) to marry.

 

[Khalid]

That’s why I put it in parentheses. It seems to me, that when a laicized priest marries, he calls down anathema and wrath upon himself, because he took an irrevocable vow of celibacy in they eyes of God and men. It follows logically from the doctrine of vows and of Holy Orders in Catholicism, that Holy Orders are an ontological impediment to valid marriage. (Although, as you have pointed out, the practice of the Church differs from this.)

I was also speaking of Catholicism alone, not Orthodoxy.

 

[joshua_b]

Although this does not speak specifically to the Eastern Churches, it may be peripherally relevant.

I have a professional relationship with a religious order, and I was told just recently by the house superior that vocations in their order seem to be very practically tied to socio-economic conditions.

Vocations in Kenya, for example, are quite robust, as it offers a lifetime of security that the seminarians would not otherwise have. He explained that vocations in the U.S. were also quite “healthy” up to the post-WWII era, and have been in decline ever since.

I would imagine this to hold true in principle for most Eastern European countries as well.

 

[Vico]

This is incorrect, in multiple aspects. First of all, the Orthodox, in limited circumstances, permit widowed deacons and priests with young children to marry. Also, in Catholicism, Holy Orders are indeed a canonical impediment to marriage, but not an ontological impediment. There have been instances in which laicized priests have been permitted by the Holy See to marry. If it were truly the case Holy Orders were an ontological impediment to marriage, then not even the Pope could permit a laicized priest (or deacon, for that matter) to marry.

There is a difference between Catholic and Orthodox in Holy Orders. Orthodox do not believe that Holy Orders gives sacramental characater as the Catholics teach.

(John 6:27, 2 Corinthians 1:22, Ephesians 1:23, 4:30)

Ref: CCC 1121.

 

[RyanBlack]

There is a difference between Catholic and Orthodox in Holy Orders. Orthodox do not believe that Holy Orders gives sacramental characater as the Catholics teach.

(John 6:27, 2 Corinthians 1:22, Ephesians 1:23, 4:30)

Ref: CCC 1121.

I wouldn’t put it quite that way; otherwise ordination would be meaningless. However, the Orthodox do not believe that Holy Orders impart an indelible character, as Catholic do. However, that’s irrelevant to my point. Even in the Catholic context, Holy Orders is not an absolute impediment to marriage, given that there are instances in which laicized priests and deacons have been permitted to marry.

 

[Vico]

I wouldn’t put it quite that way; otherwise ordination would be meaningless. However, the Orthodox do not believe that Holy Orders impart an indelible character, as Catholic do. However, that’s irrelevant to my point. Even in the Catholic context, Holy Orders is not an absolute impediment to marriage, given that there are instances in which laicized priests and deacons have been permitted to marry.

I was thinking of the originating remark of Khalid that you replied to though: “Holy Orders are a canonical (and, truly, ontological, as per the indelible mark confirmed by the grace of Ordination) impediment to marriage.”

Since Orthodox have no indelible mark and the Catholics do, it would be a basis.

But, sure, I agree with you that is is not ontological, which I take to mean by divine law rather than church discipline. And an indult can occur for church discipline but not for divine law.

It is only a church discipline that occurs from the ancient times, for example, Emperors Theodosius II (reign 408-450) and Justinian I (reign 527-565) legislated that marriage was not permitted for bishop candidates, but deacons and priests were allowed to marry before ordination but not after ordination.

 

[dochawk]

The shortage of priests has nothing to do with marriage or lack thereof, even if there is a shortage of priests -

“nothing” is to strong a word–celibacy is the only reason I did not pursue tr RC seminary after college.

for that matter, if the EC seminary was an option for married former RC, I’d probably have found a way years ago.

Celibacy is not the only issue; perhaps not the biggest–but it definitely is an issue.

hawk

 

[Hesychios]

“nothing” is to strong a word–celibacy is the only reason I did not pursue tr RC seminary after college.

for that matter, if the EC seminary was an option for married former RC, I’d probably have found a way years ago.

Celibacy is not the only issue; perhaps not the biggest–but it definitely is an issue.

hawk

You could go to an Orthodox seminary, you would not be the first Eastern Catholic to do so. Apply directly to the seminary.

If you are already formally a member of an Eastern Catholic Sui Iuris church, there is actually a good chance an Eastern Catholic bishop would pick you up after seminary, but don’t wait for your current bishop to approve before you start this process, you could wait a lifetime with no answer.

 

[Cristiano]

…But, a man who is married can become a priest; a priest can not marry, nor can he re-marry if he is widowed. Holy Orders are a canonical (and, truly, ontological, as per the indelible mark confirmed by the grace of Ordination) impediment to marriage.

Your statement is not correct. There is for example the case of an Irish priest that asked to be laicized in order to get married, the ontological change was still there. He got the approval from the Holy See for the move to the laity and for marriage, he had children and after a long time he became a widow. He then asked for permission to be re-incardinated and the Holy See gave approval with the only condition to spend a couple of years in seminary to refresh is knowledge, he is not an active priest again.

P.S. I was also referring to your post #10.

 

[Khalid]

I do understand the point made, but wonder if it’s “economy” (I doubt it is, as economy can’t contradict divine law), and stand in wonder at it, as it flies in the face of the most simple logical principles (such as that of non-contradiction) when combined with the foundational principles of Catholic sacramental theology. I’d be interested (very interested) in understand how exactly the ordination-laicization-marriage is supposed to work on a philosophical, and not merely economical, level (e.g. what justification is there, or what am I missing in all of logic or theology, that makes it appear to be as impossible as a third coming of Christ to me, yet the Church has different practice?).

 

[Zekariya]

That’s why I put it in parentheses. It seems to me, that when a laicized priest marries, he calls down anathema and wrath upon himself, because he took an irrevocable vow of celibacy in they eyes of God and men. It follows logically from the doctrine of vows and of Holy Orders in Catholicism, that Holy Orders are an ontological impediment to valid marriage. (Although, as you have pointed out, the practice of the Church differs from this.)

I was also speaking of Catholicism alone, not Orthodoxy.

Matthew 16:19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

One may be loosed from a vow by virtue of the Episcopate. This particular instance is reserved for the Holy See alone. However, if the Holy See looses a priest from the vow on earth, it is loosed in heaven as well. Once a priest is loosed from the vow of celibacy, God sees it a having been loosed; the vow has ceased to exist and God does not pour wrath upon the man.

 

[Nicea325]

All great information,but does anyone from an Eastern Rite have a source or link which may provide the information I seek?