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minichibi
Guest
Sooner or later, I’m half-expecting someone will bring up Gundam or Evangelion, but I’m pretty sure 
M
minichibi
Guest
But the original Genesis 2 authors the creation to “Yahweh-Elohim”, clearly stating beforehand that Yahweh is the Lord of the Elohim. Elohim could still be other gods… with a statement that “Yahweh” is the biggest of all Gods.
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patrick457
Guest
Did you read what I quoted earlier? Here it is again:But the original Genesis 2 authors the creation to “Yahweh-Elohim”, clearly stating beforehand that Yahweh is the Lord of the Elohim. Elohim could still be other gods… with a statement that “Yahweh” is the biggest of all Gods.
So what’s up with Genesis 1:26 and 'adonai and 'elohim? One explanation is that these are not syntactic plurals (in context, they do not really mean “gods” or “my lords”), but intensive plural, a plural of majesty or impressiveness. Are you familiar with the royal ‘we’ (where instead of ‘I’, the speaker uses ‘We’ instead)? It is assumed that this is the case here with number 1: although the form is plural the one referred to or who is speaking is singular. The plural of intensity denotes a single object or individual but adds a connotation of greatness to the referent. As I’ve mentioned: both 'adonai and elohim, by the face of it is plural and masculine (the latter for example has the plural ending -im), but the construction is usually singular when referring to the Israelite God, so we have phrases like “'anokhi YHWH 'Eloheyka” ‘I ('anokhi is first person singular), YHWH, am your Elohim’.
This page page does a more better job of explaining things.
The Hebrew word for God is Elohim. Elohim ends with the masculine plural suffix “-ִים” From this we might conclude that Elohim signifies a numerical plural (i.e. denoting multiplicity) and translate it accordingly as gods. But before we determine whether the world was created by a single God or multiple gods, we must consider whether Elohim is really a numerical plural.
In Hebrew, a numerically plural noun has three characteristics:
- *]It receives a plural suffix;
*]It receives a plural verb;
*]It receives a plural adjective.
The first characteristic, the plural suffix, is familiar to the English speaker. In English, most nouns have the plural suffix “s” or “es”. For example, dog is the singular while dogs is the plural. Hebrew adds another dimension by matching adjectives and verbs to the noun. In Hebrew, a plural noun gets a plural verb and plural adjective. In contrast, English verbs and adjectives do not change to match the noun. For example, in English:
Singular: The big dog guarded.
Plural: The big dogs guarded.
But in Hebrew:
Singular: The big (sg) dog (he) guarded. שָׁמַר הַכֶּלֶב הַגָּדוֹל
Plural: The big (pl) dogs (they) guarded. שָׁמְרוּ הַכְּלָבִים הַגְּדוֹלִים
So the first thing we must check about Elohim is whether it gets a plural adjective and plural verb, because this will tell us whether or not it is a numerical plural denoting multiplicity. In the very first verse of the Torah we read בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים meaning “Elohim (he) created”. Were Elohim a numerical plural, the verse would have to say בָּרְאוּ אֱלֹהִים “Elohim (they) created”. Indeed, the word Elohim appears in its plural form over 2000 times throughout the Hebrew Scriptures and in virtually every instance it has a singular verb. It is always "And Elohim (he) spoke to Moses " and never "And Elohim (they) spoke to Moses ". The same thing can be found with the adjective. The adjective for Elohim is singular, not plural. Thus we find אֱלֹהִים צַדִּיק “righteous (sg) Elohim” (Ps 7:10) and not אֱלֹהִים צַדִּיקִים “righteous (pl) Elohim”.
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minichibi
Guest
Ok, that clears it all up. The best bet is the use of plural of majesty. Thanks. 
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iohannes13
Guest
Reading the Bible, there is a progression of the revelation of God. The writers of Genesis did not have knowledge of the Trinity. As far as I understand, the Trinity was not revealed until the baptism of Jesus.
The culture that wrote Genesis developed like any culture around the world. The early religions were polytheistic. I believe that the Genesis culture believed that there were many gods but they they may have believed that only one was worthy of worship. Genesis quotes God as saying “Let us make man in our image…” etc. etc. etc. The word for God in this instance is Elohim which is plural form of the word God. Many Christian apologists have argued that the “US” and “OUR” is the Trinity speaking (i.e. Father to the Son, etc). Jewish scholars, who don’t believe in the Trinity have claimed that God, in His humility is speaking to the angels or that He is referring to Himself in the majestic third-person as some kings have been portrayed to do so. Some Jewish scholars add that Elohim was not plural in that instance. I really believe that the arguments from both groups have been influenced by their own preconceived notion/belief of monotheism that there is only ONE god and that no other gods exist. They project their monotheistic belief to the writings. If one’s steps back and places the writings in their historical and cultural context, we can arrive at a different conclusion. To me the right conclusion is that the primitive Hebrews believed that there were many gods but at the very least may have believed that only one of them was worthy of worship.
I point to Abraham who is considered the father of monotheism. His family lived in a polytheistic country. His father was polytheistic and carved pagan statues for a living. Abraham was most likely polytheistic or at the very least was henotheistic. But the main point of Abraham’s story is that God revealed to him that there is only ONE god. Why would that need to be revealed?
Genesis was written long after the events that are being described. How long after is anybody’s guess. God did not pick up a pen to write Genesis Himself. The pen was actually picked up by a person who wrote. Was God or an angel present dictating everything that had to be written? Seeing how the world works, I don’t believe this was the case. Referring to one of the Gospels (Luke?) one can read that the author took it upon himself to write the book. What gives? No supernatural event of the heavens parting, God appearing, no angels, no thunder, no voices? If the author took it upon himself to write it, how can it be inspired? Knowing how history works, first one lives through the event; then the event is passed on verbally with repeat retellings of the event; after time has passed, before the event is forgotten, it is written down. This is a very natural process that is no different than how Genesis and the Gospel came about. The writer was inspired to write the story down. The inspiration was not in some ultra-spectacular way. The inspiration came naturally to them probably similar to the inspiration an artist feels, nothing spectacular. As it turns out, Inspiration was most likely a very boring but profound event. Does this negate the holiness of the book? Not at all.
The culture that wrote Genesis developed like any culture around the world. The early religions were polytheistic. I believe that the Genesis culture believed that there were many gods but they they may have believed that only one was worthy of worship. Genesis quotes God as saying “Let us make man in our image…” etc. etc. etc. The word for God in this instance is Elohim which is plural form of the word God. Many Christian apologists have argued that the “US” and “OUR” is the Trinity speaking (i.e. Father to the Son, etc). Jewish scholars, who don’t believe in the Trinity have claimed that God, in His humility is speaking to the angels or that He is referring to Himself in the majestic third-person as some kings have been portrayed to do so. Some Jewish scholars add that Elohim was not plural in that instance. I really believe that the arguments from both groups have been influenced by their own preconceived notion/belief of monotheism that there is only ONE god and that no other gods exist. They project their monotheistic belief to the writings. If one’s steps back and places the writings in their historical and cultural context, we can arrive at a different conclusion. To me the right conclusion is that the primitive Hebrews believed that there were many gods but at the very least may have believed that only one of them was worthy of worship.
I point to Abraham who is considered the father of monotheism. His family lived in a polytheistic country. His father was polytheistic and carved pagan statues for a living. Abraham was most likely polytheistic or at the very least was henotheistic. But the main point of Abraham’s story is that God revealed to him that there is only ONE god. Why would that need to be revealed?
Genesis was written long after the events that are being described. How long after is anybody’s guess. God did not pick up a pen to write Genesis Himself. The pen was actually picked up by a person who wrote. Was God or an angel present dictating everything that had to be written? Seeing how the world works, I don’t believe this was the case. Referring to one of the Gospels (Luke?) one can read that the author took it upon himself to write the book. What gives? No supernatural event of the heavens parting, God appearing, no angels, no thunder, no voices? If the author took it upon himself to write it, how can it be inspired? Knowing how history works, first one lives through the event; then the event is passed on verbally with repeat retellings of the event; after time has passed, before the event is forgotten, it is written down. This is a very natural process that is no different than how Genesis and the Gospel came about. The writer was inspired to write the story down. The inspiration was not in some ultra-spectacular way. The inspiration came naturally to them probably similar to the inspiration an artist feels, nothing spectacular. As it turns out, Inspiration was most likely a very boring but profound event. Does this negate the holiness of the book? Not at all.
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CEM5
Guest
The “us” in Genesis is not God talking to the angels.
Angels cannot create, nor were they created in the image and likeness of God, therefore, logically, God is not speaking with the angels when He said, “Let us make man in our image.”
I believe (and I could be mistaken) the plural “us” and “our” is used majestically, just as in medieval times Kings would speak of their majestic kingly being in the plural.
For instance, when a king was making a proclamation he would say, “We have decided…”, rather than "I have decided…”
Additionally, recall that all scripture is inspired by God, and therefore it is also taught that this is alluding to the Trinity, as we know today because of the revelation of the Word in the New Testament, that God is one. I believe God inspired the writers of Genesis to use those words. They could have just used “I will create man in my image”, but they didn’t.
Genesis was not the first book of the Bible written - Pslams was by King David around 1000 BC, when the belief in one God was well established. Prior to that the stories of the Bible were transmitted and passed on orally, then over time they were written. Genesis 2 is actually the earlier version of the creation story – Genesis 1 was written much later.
Because the Triune God is the “author” (He inspired mankind to write the words), He ensured the prefiguration of many Doctrines that only came to light in the New Testament era.
1 John 5:7 DR
7 And there are Three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.
Blessings,
CEM
Angels cannot create, nor were they created in the image and likeness of God, therefore, logically, God is not speaking with the angels when He said, “Let us make man in our image.”
I believe (and I could be mistaken) the plural “us” and “our” is used majestically, just as in medieval times Kings would speak of their majestic kingly being in the plural.
For instance, when a king was making a proclamation he would say, “We have decided…”, rather than "I have decided…”
Additionally, recall that all scripture is inspired by God, and therefore it is also taught that this is alluding to the Trinity, as we know today because of the revelation of the Word in the New Testament, that God is one. I believe God inspired the writers of Genesis to use those words. They could have just used “I will create man in my image”, but they didn’t.
Genesis was not the first book of the Bible written - Pslams was by King David around 1000 BC, when the belief in one God was well established. Prior to that the stories of the Bible were transmitted and passed on orally, then over time they were written. Genesis 2 is actually the earlier version of the creation story – Genesis 1 was written much later.
Because the Triune God is the “author” (He inspired mankind to write the words), He ensured the prefiguration of many Doctrines that only came to light in the New Testament era.
1 John 5:7 DR
7 And there are Three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.
Blessings,
CEM
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iohannes13
Guest
Did God speak in the majestic third person throughout the Bible? Did He do it only in certain books and not others? Did He speak that way only in Genesis? If He only spoke that way in certain books or just in Genesis, what is the signficance of that, if any? Why only in those books does He speak that way?
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grannymh
Guest
Sorry. I’m brain dead as far as all your questions.
The significance of Genesis 1: 26 is the relationship of God to human nature itself,
yours and mine.:hug1:
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