Genesis 3:15

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toppro77:
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JKirkLVNV:
I must assume from your attack that you would tend to believe the protestants have had it right all along and us Catholics have been misled by the Magesterium of the Church for 1700 years, am I right?
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Once again, you only demonstrate your beligerance, as I haven’t offered an opinion on it at all, accept to assert that I had no problem with the Vulgate or the Infallible Church. If you were able to read critically, you would have to logically assert that I agreed with you, not that I disagreed with you. You seem to be spoiling for a fight. I’m not going to give you one, I’m only going to point out that you seem to be begging for one. Now, who is this really? Marian Horvat? Bishop Fellay? C’mon, you can tell us.
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Psalm45:9:
Maybe he’ll say the New American Bible will not be used for liturgy any more. :bowdown:
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:dancing::clapping::dancing::clapping::dancing:
 
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JKirkLVNV:
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toppro77:
a) Martin Luther was never a bishop.

b) If
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(and that’s a huge if taken with an equally large grain of salt) what you assert is so, how is that a degradation of our Blessed Mother, who only ever pointed us to Her Son, if it instead refered to “Her Seed?”

I think this is one more effort on the part of a “rad trad” to sow disquiet among the faithful, to make them doubtful and fearful for their own standing before God as a part of the Church governed by the Vicar of Christ.

If Luther wasn’t a bishop, how did he ordain priests?

I bet you think I make this stuff up don’t you? :tsktsk:
Well take a glance at this encyclical by a holy pope who knows a little more than we do about whats going on in our Church. He saw it first hand.

I think you should read **Humanum Genus April 20, 1884 **
By pope Leo XIII then come back and talk about how we should trust everything that has happened in Our Church since Vatican II.

I will help you out with a few quotes to get you started.

**Art 2. “Freemasons…are planning the destruction of holy Church publicly and openly.” :hmmm: **Gives one something to think about doesn’t it?

Art 5. "The first warning of the danger was given by Clement XII in the year l738."

Art 7. The sect of Freemasons grew with a rapidity beyond conception in the course of a century and a half, until it came to be able, by means of fraud or of audacity, to gain such entrance into every rank of the State as to seem to be almost its ruling power.

Art10. Their ultimate purpose is the overthrow of the whole religious and political order of the world , and the substitution of a new state of things in accordance with their ideas,

Art 12. It is against the Church that the rage and attack of the enemies are principally directed. :yup:

Art 14. “Indeed, with them it is lawful to attack with impunity the very foundations of the Catholic religion, in speech, in writing, and in teaching; and even the rights of the Church are not spared, and the offices with which it is divinely invested are not safe.”

Oh Heres a good one! :bigyikes:
Art 15. "They have for a long time plotted, that the sacred power of the Pontiffs must be abolished, and that the papacy itself, founded by divine right, must be utterly destroyed…The Freemasons especially desire to assail the Church with irreconcilable hostility, and that they will never rest until they have destroyed whatever the supreme Pontiffs have established for the sake of religion."
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toppro77:
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JKirkLVNV:
If Luther wasn’t a bishop, how did he ordain priests?

I bet you think I make this stuff up don’t you? :tsktsk:
Well take a glance at this encyclical by a holy pope who knows a little more than we do about whats going on in our Church. He saw it first hand.

I think you should read **Humanum Genus April 20, 1884 **
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By pope Leo XIII then come back and talk about how we should trust everything that has happened in Our Church since Vatican II.

I will help you out with a few quotes to get you started.

**Art 2. “Freemasons…are planning the destruction of holy Church publicly and openly.” :hmmm: **Gives one something to think about doesn’t it?

Art 5. "The first warning of the danger was given by Clement XII in the year l738."

Art 7. The sect of Freemasons grew with a rapidity beyond conception in the course of a century and a half, until it came to be able, by means of fraud or of audacity, to gain such entrance into every rank of the State as to seem to be almost its ruling power.

Art10. Their ultimate purpose is the overthrow of the whole religious and political order of the world , and the substitution of a new state of things in accordance with their ideas,

Art 12. It is against the Church that the rage and attack of the enemies are principally directed. :yup:

Art 14. “Indeed, with them it is lawful to attack with impunity the very foundations of the Catholic religion, in speech, in writing, and in teaching; and even the rights of the Church are not spared, and the offices with which it is divinely invested are not safe.”

Oh Heres a good one! :bigyikes:
Art 15. "They have for a long time plotted, that the sacred power of the Pontiffs must be abolished, and that the papacy itself, founded by divine right, must be utterly destroyed…The Freemasons especially desire to assail the Church with irreconcilable hostility, and that they will never rest until they have destroyed whatever the supreme Pontiffs have established for the sake of religion."

Mercy on us, another “rad trad” propensity! Cutting and pasting with abandon! You still haven’t answered my other post. Wait, wait, that’s another “rad trad” habit, bouncing around and shoving straw man arguments at people to distract from the fact that they can’t answer a question. Again, how does it “degrade” (your word) our Blessed Mother if the text were to actually read Her “seed?” Who in the name of goodness and mercy has mentioned the Masons?!? And Luther was still NOT a bishop.
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JKirkLVNV:
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toppro77:
Mercy on us, another “rad trad” propensity! Cutting and pasting with abandon! You still haven’t answered my other post. Wait, wait, that’s another “rad trad” habit, bouncing around and shoving straw man arguments at people to distract from the fact that they can’t answer a question. Again, how does it “degrade” (your word) our Blessed Mother if the text were to actually read Her “seed?” Who in the name of goodness and mercy has mentioned the Masons?!? And Luther was still NOT a bishop.
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Ok lets take this from the top.
I did not say it degraded the Blessed Virgin by what you quote “Her seed”

The key section of the passage is who will crush the head of satan.

DRB “ I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for** her heel**.”

The NAB says “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel.”

**
**Not only does the NAB not mention “Her seed” as you put it, but it doesnt even mention the fact that satan will be crushed or that he will lie in wait for her or him to do it to him. It just says someone will strike at him while he strikes back.

If that isnt a perversion of the truth then I don’t know what is.
What you will need to do if you defend this translation, is to prove it means the same thing as the 1700 year old Latin Vulgate version.

And you still didn’t tell me how Luther ordained his priests****** :confused: ******
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toppro77:
Oh and BTW, Pope Leo XIII mentioned the Masons, not me. 😛
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His Holiness, of blessed memory, didn’t mention it in these forums. Nor do I think he would have done so in this thread, which imply that apparently the Church either stands or falls on a noun. It makes as much relevant sense to bring up cheese sandwiches.
 
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toppro77:
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JKirkLVNV:
Ok lets take this from the top.
I did not say it degraded the Blessed Virgin by what you quote “Her seed”

The key section of the passage is who will crush the head of satan.

DRB “ I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head
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, and thou shalt lie in wait for** her heel**.”

The NAB says “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel.”

Not only does the NAB not mention “Her seed” as you put it, but it doesnt even mention the fact that satan will be crushed or that he will lie in wait for her or him to do it to him. It just says someone will strike at him while he strikes back.

If that isnt a perversion of the truth then I don’t know what is.
What you will need to do if you defend this translation, is to prove it means the same thing as the 1700 year old Latin Vulgate version.

And you still didn’t tell me how Luther ordained his priests****** :confused: ******

He didn’t ordain them validly, according to Catholic teaching, any more than Calvin did or Knox, any more than John Wesley would latter. Are they bishops? I should think it would be news to them, esp. the two former, as they rejected the episcopacy altogether. And here are your exact words: “Why would anyone blindly accept a change that degrades the Blessed Virgin Mary?”
You seem to allege that the change to Her “seed” would degrade her, since that was the change to which you objected. I fail to see how it degrades the Theotokos.
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JKirkLVNV:
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toppro77:
He didn’t ordain them validly, according to Catholic teaching, any more than Calvin did or Knox, any more than John Wesley would latter. Are they bishops? I should think it would be news to them, esp. the two former, as they rejected the episcopacy altogether. And here are your exact words: “Why would anyone blindly accept a change that degrades the Blessed Virgin Mary?”
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You seem to allege that the change to Her “seed” would degrade her, since that was the change to which you objected. I fail to see how it degrades the Theotokos.

Read my post:
The key section of the passage is **who will crush **the head of satan.

DRB “ I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for** her heel**.”

The NAB says “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel.”

I didnt refer to her seed as the problem with this passage!
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toppro77:
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JKirkLVNV:
Read my post:
The key section of the passage is **who will crush **
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the head of satan.

DRB “ I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for** her heel**.”

The NAB says “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel.”

I didnt refer to her seed as the problem with this passage!

Alright, then how does the change degrade her? Again, that’s your word.
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toppro77:
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JKirkLVNV:
Read my post:
The key section of the passage is **who will crush **
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the head of satan.

DRB “ I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for** her heel**.”

The NAB says “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel.”

I didnt refer to her seed as the problem with this passage!

I had read that some of the pronouns used in the most ancient of manuscripts on this discourse are not gender specific.

I have also read that the current version of the Latin Vulgate may have been corrupted over the centuries and is not the exact text put forth by St. Jerome, though there is no proof of this.

The Confraternity Version of the Douay reads “I will put emnity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed; he shall crush your head, and your shall lie in wait for his heel.”

Rm 16:20a “But the God of peace will speedily crush Satan under your feet.” Isn’t Paul referring to Gen 3:15 here? He seems to think that the Lord is doing the crushing here.

Of course Mary crushes the serpent’s head through the Godhead.
Immaculate Conception - strike 1 through God the Father
The Incarnation - strike 2 through the Holy Spirit
The Virgin Birth - strike 3 through Jesus Christ
Satan’s Out!

Our Lady’s Assumption and Coronation verify her consecration to the Lord.

Suggesting that I would be a follower of Martin Luther was a good one by Toppro 77. Anyone who knows me would’ve got a chuckle out of that one!

We must take care not to become overzealous lest Satan take us down the reformists’ path.

I usually spend much time defending Our Lady’s honor. As servant of Christ my King, my life and sword are pledged to that end. What does Toppro77 think our Queen Mother would say about who crushes the head of the serpent?

Would Mary want the credit our would she give it to her son? What say ye?
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MarkAnthonyCozy:
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toppro77:
I had read that some of the pronouns used in the most ancient of manuscripts on this discourse are not gender specific.

I have also read that the current version of the Latin Vulgate may have been corrupted over the centuries and is not the exact text put forth by St. Jerome, though there is no proof of this.

The Confraternity Version of the Douay reads “I will put emnity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed; he shall crush your head, and your shall lie in wait for his heel.”

Rm 16:20a “But the God of peace will speedily crush Satan under your feet.” Isn’t Paul referring to Gen 3:15 here? He seems to think that the Lord is doing the crushing here.

Of course Mary crushes the serpent’s head through the Godhead.
Immaculate Conception - strike 1 through God the Father
The Incarnation - strike 2 through the Holy Spirit
The Virgin Birth - strike 3 through Jesus Christ
Satan’s Out!

Our Lady’s Assumption and Coronation verify her consecration to the Lord.

Suggesting that I would be a follower of Martin Luther was a good one by Toppro 77. Anyone who knows me would’ve got a chuckle out of that one!

We must take care not to become overzealous lest Satan take us down the reformists’ path.

I usually spend much time defending Our Lady’s honor. As servant of Christ my King, my life and sword are pledged to that end. What does Toppro77 think our Queen Mother would say about who crushes the head of the serpent?

Would Mary want the credit our would she give it to her son? What say ye?
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She would point Her finger right at the God dying on the Cross!!!
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This all boils down to which Old Testament manuscript is considered more accurate.

**Jerome’s vulgate ** was produced in 400 AD using now lost Hebrew originals, so Jerome’s Vulgate is a witness on its own.

The other Ancient Old Testament text is the Greek Septuagint, translated in 200 BC. We have versions from 300 AD.

Luther and all recent Bible translators have tended to reject these old Christian sources in favour of the Hebrew **Masoretic ** texts. However the oldest of these dates back only to 1000 AD.

Generally the older text is considered the least corrupted. But bible translators reverse this and largely rely on the fairly recent Hebrew manuscripts. (Presumably on the assumption that the Jewish scribes are trustworthy and the Christian ones aren’t!)

This has led to a lot of differences in recent versions. Since the Apostles used the Septuagint version, their OT scripture quotes differ from the Masoretic-based OTs in modern bibles. The most famous is Hebrew: “A **Young Woman ** shall give birth”. Septuagint: “A **virgin ** shall give birth.”

However strangely in **this ** instance, modern bibles take the Septuagint reading which says **he ** shall crush, rather than the Vulgate **she ** shall crush, or the Masoretic Hebrew, it shall crush.

Is there an agenda? I sometimes think so.
 
I have read on various apologetics sites that Genesis 3:15 can be translated he or she, it’s one of those mysteries of the Bible that A&E should have made a show that would have put Dan Brown to shame. Anyways, I can tell that verse was indeed by the Holy Spirit, becuase in essence, both Mary and Jesus crushed the head of the serpent.
 
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