Genesis 4

[happyrain]

I’m confused. There is a verse in Genesis 4,

‘And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.’

But who should want to find Cain to kill him, if Cain and Abel (whom Cain killed) were the only offspring of Adam and Eve?

 

[Orogeny]

All the people who existed but were never, ever mentioned in Genesis. You know, like Cain’s wife.

Peace

Tim

 

[tobinatorstark]

I’m confused. There is a verse in Genesis 4,

‘And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.’

But who should want to find Cain to kill him, if Cain and Abel (whom Cain killed) were the only offspring of Adam and Eve?

hm this is odd. This passage comes from the the Protestant KJV I believe

Here is what the Douay-Rheims says in the same passage

15 And the Lord said to him: No, it shall not be so: but whosoever shall kill Cain, shall be punished sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, that whosoever found him should not kill him.

And the Vulgate

Dixitque ei Dominus : Nequaquam ita fiet : sed omnis qui occiderit Cain, septuplum punietur. Posuitque Dominus Cain signum, ut non interficeret eum omnis qui invenisset eum

Can anyone help me translate the Latin. I am beginner on Latin???

Notes from the Douay-Rheims about those who’d want to kill Cain

14 “Every one, therefore, that findeth me, shall kill me”… His guilty conscience made him fear his own brothers and nephews; of whom, by this time, there might be a good number upon the earth; which had now endured near 130 years; as may be gathered from Gen. 5. 3, compared with chap. 4. 25, though in the compendious account given in the scriptures, only Cain and Abel are mentioned.

15 “Set a mark”… The more common opinion of the interpreters of holy writ supposes this mark to have been a trembling of the body; or a horror and consternation in his countenance.

and from the Haydock Bible Commentary

Ver. 14. Every one that findeth me, shall kill me. His guilty conscience made him fear his own brothers, and nephews; of whom, by this time, there might be a good number upon the earth: which had now endured near 130 years; as may be gathered from Genesis v. 3, compared with chap. iv. 25, though in the compendious account given in the Scripture, only Cain and Abel are mentioned. (Challoner) — Cain is little concerned about any thing but the loss of life. (Menochius)

Ver. 15. Set a mark, &c. The more common opinion of the interpreters of holy writ, supposes this mark to have been a trembling of the body; or a horror and consternation in his countenance. (Challoner) — God gave this first murderer a reprieve, allowing him time for repentance; but he neglected it, and died a reprobate; having been, during life, the head of an apostate church, and of the city of the devil, which has ever since opposed the city of God, and the society of the faithful. Though all his posterity were drowned in the deluge, some were soon found, even in the family of Noe, who stood up for the wretched pre-eminence in wickedness and rebellion, against the truth. See St. Augustine; Worthington; &c. (Haydock)

 

[agangbern]

All the people who existed but were never, ever mentioned in Genesis. You know, like Cain’s wife.

Peace

Tim

He he he, let’s try this exercise.

Cain wondered from “paradise” to a place called Nod. There in Nod, Cain found a wife. Who were the parents of Cain’s wife?

 

[buffalo]

He he he, let’s try this exercise.

Cain wondered from “paradise” to a place called Nod. There in Nod, Cain found a wife. Who were the parents of Cain’s wife?

Cain married his twin sister, Avan.

 

[Orogeny]

He he he, let’s try this exercise.

Cain wondered from “paradise” to a place called Nod. There in Nod, Cain found a wife. Who were the parents of Cain’s wife?

Ancestral Nodians? Or would that be Nodites?

Peace

Tim

 

[agangbern]

Please present your answer with basis: Theologically, Philosophically, Mathematically, Humorously, or whatever…

 

[Valke2]

It seems obvious to me that the story of Cain and Able is part of a story that was known to the people at the time the bible was written.

 

[pprimeau1976]

I’m confused. There is a verse in Genesis 4,

‘And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.’

But who should want to find Cain to kill him, if Cain and Abel (whom Cain killed) were the only offspring of Adam and Eve?

According to the NAB, Cain was simply afraid of “anyone.” We do not know if these were his future siblings he was referring to, or whether he was referring to other “people”. I place people in quotes because it’s possible that Cain either assumed there were other people in the world or possibly mistook other species to be human. Scientifically speaking, in prehistorical times, humans and neanderthals co-existed. Maybe he thought they were human.

 

[pprimeau1976]

He he he, let’s try this exercise.

Cain wondered from “paradise” to a place called Nod. There in Nod, Cain found a wife. Who were the parents of Cain’s wife?

I don’t know who her parents were, but if I am correct in my hypothesis that Cain could have mistaken a Neanderthal for a human, this is what his wife could have looked like. Yikes.

news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/09/080917-neanderthal-photo.html

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/09/images/080917-neanderthal-photo_big.jpg

 

[The_Barbarian]

Ancestral Nodians? Or would that be Nodites?

Nodules.

 

[Valke2]

The story was probably one well known to ancient man and used to explain, among other things, the fierceness of the Cainites. (Hence the 7 fold return of trouble to anyone who harmed Cain). The writer took the story, editied it somewhat and used it in the creation narrative. This could account for the reference to other people and a wife – which must have made sense in the original story.

It also explains why we don’t know exactly what Cain and his brother were arguing about. It is another part of the story that was apparently lost/missing.

 

[Orogeny]

Please present your answer with basis: Theologically, Philosophically, Mathematically, Humorously, or whatever…

Well, let’s see.

Theologically: Adam and Eve had 2 sons, Cain and Abel. That means that at that point in time, there were 4 people on earth. Cain killed Abel, so we are now down to 3 people. Neither Adam nor Eve lived in the Land of Nod, so someone else must have been there. Nodules (thanks Barb!).

Philosophically: Does it really matter?

Mathematically: Sorry, I am a geologist, not an engineer!

Humorously: I have no sense of humor. Just ask edwest2 or reggieM.

Peace

Tim

 

[CentralFLJames]

I’m confused. There is a verse in Genesis 4,

‘And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.’

But who should want to find Cain to kill him, if Cain and Abel (whom Cain killed) were the only offspring of Adam and Eve?

Are you forgetting that Adam and Even had a new son named Seth who was the replacement for Able? And its clear from logic that these are not the only children in any regard since we know Cain ran off to the land of Nod to intermarry there.

Considering the long life spans recorded in Genesis 5 the possibility existed that the world’s population could have approached a few billion by the time of Adam’s death at the age of 930.

That’s a lot of people in the family lineage who might have held onto a long lived grudge against the murder Cain.

In this whole passage God is already starting to show how He will restore man to grace by not returning a literal “eye for an eye” kind of justice by killing a murderer but rather showing how recompense can be regained through the obedience and suffering of His Son Jesus. The entire bible from Genesis to Revelation is all about showing how God had a plan from the very beginning to restore man’s fallen nature, and progressive moral decay, by offsetting all the original transgressions and injustice through Christ His Son.

Profound stuff…
James

 

[Valke2]

Are you forgetting that Adam and Even had a new son named Seth who was the replacement for Able? And its clear from logic that these are not the only children in any regard since we know Cain ran off to the land of Nod to intermarry there.

Considering the long life spans recorded in Genesis 5 the possibility existed that the world’s population could have approached a few billion by the time of Adam’s death at the age of 930.

That’s a lot of people in the family lineage who might have held onto a long lived grudge against the murder Cain.

In this whole passage God is already starting to show how He will restore man to grace by not returning a literal “eye for an eye” kind of justice by killing a murderer but rather showing how recompense can be regained through the obedience and suffering of His Son Jesus. The entire bible from Genesis to Revelation is all about showing how God had a plan from the very beginning to restore man’s fallen nature, and progressive moral decay, by offsetting all the original transgressions and injustice through Christ His Son.

Profound stuff…
James

A few billion??? I think your math is a bit off.
And how would it occur to Cain that the offspring of a brother he didn’t yet have would pose a threat to him?

 

[CentralFLJames]

A few billion??? I think your math is a bit off.
And how would it occur to Cain that the offspring of a brother he didn’t yet have would pose a threat to him?

You are at complete liberty to provide your own guesstimates on numbers if you care. The point that is relevant here is that there are going to be a lot of people around to develop long term family feuds. Cain is revealing his conscience that he knows those who are in current existence would want to kill him (implicit that there are other brothers and sisters - not to mention Adam’s rage). And unlike us in our current degraded moral decline Cain was not a complete idiot and knew where babies came from since he was one at one time surmised that mom and dad would be making more and could do the math that there would be enough family around to hold a grudge for as long as humans lived.

Borrowing from another external source let me put it this way:
According to the simple math, if Cain waited to marry until he was about 200 years old, he probably had several women to choose from, providing some migrated eastward to Nod with other family members. If he waited another 200 years to build a city, he could have had at least a few thousand people to help him, again assuming some migration occurred. It is not entirely impossible that Cain had sisters from whom to take a wife even before his banishment and the birth of Seth. The text does not tell us. Assuming only a 50% active fertility cycle and no major wars/disease we have:

Here are the numbers:
year_________reproducing couples________children born_________ total population
0| 1| 0| 2
50| 1| 0| 2
100| 1| 10| 12
150| 6| 30| 42
200| 21| 100| 142
250| 71| 352| 494
300| 247| 1210| 1704
350| 852| 4180| 5884
400| 2941| 14,450| 20,334
450| 10,167| 49,892| 70,226
500| 35,113| 172,358| 242,584
550| 121,292| 595,378| 837,962
600| 418,980| 2,056,530| 2,894,492
650| 1,447,245| 7,103,862| 9,998,364
700| 4,999,176| 24,538,536| 34,536,930
750| 17,268,444| 84,762,338| 119,299,368
800| 59,649,613| 292,790,780| 412,090,500
850| 206,045,003| 1,011,374,120| 1,423,465,830
900 711,732,063| 3,493,544,650| 4,917,014,660

And your point in all this is what - to discredit me?

James

 

[Orogeny]

Are you forgetting that Adam and Even had a new son named Seth who was the replacement for Able?

Seth was born after Cain established a city. Who lived in that city?

And its clear from logic that these are not the only children in any regard since we know Cain ran off to the land of Nod to intermarry there.

Clear logic? I don’t think so. If one reads Genesis literally, there is no logic necessary as it is very clear. Those who want to read things into it like other children not mentioned are making things up to fit a literal reading. How clear is that logic?

Peace

Tim

 

[CentralFLJames]

Seth was born after Cain established a city. Who lived in that city?Clear logic? I don’t think so. If one reads Genesis literally, there is no logic necessary as it is very clear. Those who want to read things into it like other children not mentioned are making things up to fit a literal reading. How clear is that logic?

Peace

Tim

Speak your alternative logic then rather than dancing around a literalistic May pole without explaining yourself.

Who was in “the land of Nod” if not a descendant of Adam and Eve? Who named it such? Can we surmise there was a person named Nod? You are not suggesting that Cain had children by Eve are you???

Are you advocating a strict literal interpretation when it is not warranted? A strict literal interpretation tells us there is more to the story than is given or else it does not make sense. You must assume either there are more descendants of Adam and Eve other than is told here or you must assume that there was something like cro magnon man who was a natural being with human like qualities that evolved from the earth who Cain intermarried with; or some other hypothesis. If you are advocating a pure literalistic interpretation state your reason for your theory.

James

 

[Orogeny]

Who was in “the land of Nod” if not a descendant of Adam and Eve? Who named it such? Can we surmise there was a person named Nod?

Very good questions. Clearly, there is a problem reading Genesis literally and you have found one of the problems.

I don’t read Genesis literally, so I don’t have a problem with other people existing at the time Cain killed Abel and was exiled from the land east of Eden.

You are not suggesting that Cain had children by Eve are you???

No. But others here will tell you that there would be no problem with that because incest wasn’t a sin yet.

Are you advocating a strict literal interpretation when it is not warranted?

I am not advocating a literal reading period.

A strict literal interpretation tells us there is more to the story than is given or else it does not make sense.

Perhaps, but you cannot add things to the story just so that it makes sense to you.

You must assume either there are more descendants of Adam and Eve other than is told here or you must assume that there was something like cro magnon man who was a natural being with human like qualities that evolved from the earth who Cain intermarried with; or some other hypothesis. If you are advocating a pure literalistic interpretation state your reason for your theory.

Cro-Magnon man was modern man (Homo sapiens) and they evolved from earlier hominids.

Peace

Tim

 

[buffalo]

Very good questions. Clearly, there is a problem reading Genesis literally and you have found one of the problems.

I don’t read Genesis literally, so I don’t have a problem with other people existing at the time Cain killed Abel and was exiled from the land east of Eden.No. But others here will tell you that there would be no problem with that because incest wasn’t a sin yet.I am not advocating a literal reading period.Perhaps, but you cannot add things to the story just so that it makes sense to you.Cro-Magnon man was modern man (Homo sapiens) and they evolved from earlier hominids.

Peace

Tim

No - incest was only allowed horizontally not vertically.