Genesis 5:22-24 - Rapture?

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curtishouse29 said:
There is not one mention of this from the Early Church Fathers or any other Christians for that matter until the 1800s. Doesn’t that strike you as a little odd? If you look at the verses that supposedly support the pre-tribulation rapture, those verses are completely twisted around and don’t point to this supposed pre-tribulation rapture whatsoever. Anybody know the official view of the Catholic Church regarding the “pre-tribulation rapture”?
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No it doesn’t strike me as “odd”. Gods working with Israel in the last days is part of the rapture belief. There are plenty of writings from certain ECF’s that basically taught Israel and the Jews have no more significant role in Gods plans anymore. This was probably easy for the ancient Church to believe, since the Jews were dispersed from the land, with no more Temple, its rabbinical leaders completely shunned Jewish Christians from claiming to still be Jewish, etc.

Well, today, we see the people are being brought back into the land. Just like prophecy foretold.

Well today
 
LetoAtriedesII said:
regarding the rapture: the church does not believe in a pretribulation rapture- all the passages talking about the rapture are actually the ressurrection of the dead and if you look in scripture the resurrection of the dead happens at the second coming at the end of time, not prior to the tribulation- ex: 1 Corintihians 15:23-26, Revelation 20:12-14, and Matthew 24:29-31
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But now you got the issue of wheter or not there is a literal 1000 year Kingdom on Earth, like the scriptures indicate. If the belief is, no literal Kingdom here on Earth, in Israel by Jesus, then you can use the scriptures above as proof the second coming is at the end of time. If ya slip Israel out of Jesus second coming, then the prophecies concerning such become “mystical”, “good examples to inspire us if we are ever persecuted”, etc., etc.
 
curtishouse29 said:
Exactly…Thanks for pointing that out…Congrats on your first couple of posts…Not sure why you haven’t posted more yet lol The funniest thing about the rapture to me though is if the pre-trib rapture was true, what we consider the second coming would actually be the third coming according to their theology…Where is that in the Bible? LOL
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lol’s aside, some Catholics(and other Christians) claim Jesus came as the Roman army to destroy the Temple and lay seige on Jerusalem, which left many dead. If this is so, they also teach Jesus will come three times.

Anyways, the pre-trib rapture teaches that Jesus will catch up his believers in the air, the dead will rise first, then those that remain. At this event, there is no coming back to Israel, yet. Jesus’s two comings was and will be in Israel.
 
Lev23 said:
But now you got the issue of wheter or not there is a literal 1000 year Kingdom on Earth, like the scriptures indicate. If the belief is, no literal Kingdom here on Earth, in Israel by Jesus, then you can use the scriptures above as proof the second coming is at the end of time. If ya slip Israel out of Jesus second coming, then the prophecies concerning such become “mystical”, “good examples to inspire us if we are ever persecuted”, etc., etc.
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Yes they are very much connected issues- The Parable of the Weeds illuminates best the existence of the Catholic view of the 1000 year kingdom being a symbolic 1000 years- the parable of the weeds in Matthew 13 mentions the kingdom of heaven which is an equivalent of the 1000 year kingdom- it mentions the harvest of the Earth- if the dead must rise first- then the resurrection of the dead occurs somewhere within the timeline- and immmediately after the harvest it mentions that “the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father.” The kingdomf of the father being the new and heaven and earth mentioned in revelation 21-22. So at that moment he hands over the kingdom to his father as mentioned shall happen at his Second Coming in 1 Corinthians 23:26 once death is destroyed. It says he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet, the last enemy to be destroyed being death. later in the chapter 23:54-55 death is destroyed quickly after the resurrection of the dead. Also Jesus is already reigning mentioned in Mark 16:19 and Luke 20:41-43. So if a person was to look at Revelation 20 2we see the Christ is reigning, as he already is, and the that the Death and Hades in line 13 gives up its dead and also Death and Hades are thrown into the pool of fire. indicating that the resurrection of the dead/“rapture” passages happens at the end of the 1000 year kingdom not prior to it. Not only that but the people being harvested in the Prabel of the weeds are being separated for Judgment. Immdeiately after Hades and death gives up their dead everyone is judged for the last judgment. After all this takes place the rigteous in revelation 21 and 22 indeed will shine like the sun in the kingdom of the Father. And also in Mark in Luke there are various passages referring to the kingdom of heaven going to be present before any of the people before Jesus dies. Not only this but when Jesus teaches us to pray he tells us to pray in anticipation of the Father’s kingdom, not of a physical 1000 year kingdom in which Jesus will reign on earth as rapturists understadn it. So although the rapture question and the timing of the resurrection drags one to have ot convince a rapturist of amillenialism it seems the Gospel is clear if one were to look and see the events being mentioned and lining them up in order. Essentially having to kill two birds with one stone by utilizing the timing of the resurrection of the dead and the destruction of the death to indicate that the Church’s view on these endtimes subjects are correct. Hopefull thats all coherent haha
 
peary said:
**Paradise isn’t heaven?:confused: **
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At the time, “Paradise” was seen as the “Bosom of Abraham”. Not a place of suffering, but a place of waiting for Jesus’ death and resurrection.
Also known as the “Limbo of the Fathers”. The parable of the Rich man and Lazarus speaks of this.
 
Lev23 said:
lol’s aside, some Catholics(and other Christians) claim Jesus came as the Roman army to destroy the Temple and lay seige on Jerusalem, which left many dead. If this is so, they also teach Jesus will come three times.

Anyways, the pre-trib rapture teaches that Jesus will catch up his believers in the air, the dead will rise first, then those that remain. At this event, there is no coming back to Israel, yet. Jesus’s two comings was and will be in Israel.
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There is no evidence of a pre-Trib “Rapture”. It’s a kooky belief that was born of John Nelson Darby of England, the founder of the Plymouth Brethren.

There is no biblical evidence for this but a twisted, albeit, hopeful interpretation of 1 Thess. 4:15-17.
 
elvisman said:
At the time, "Paradise" was seen as the “Bosom of Abraham”. Not a place of suffering, but a place of waiting for Jesus’ death and resurrection.
Also known as the "Limbo of the Fathers". The parable of the Rich man and Lazarus speaks of this.
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But this still doesn’t answer the questions as to Enoch’s ‘assumption’ to God.
 
peary said:
But this still doesn’t answer the questions as to Enoch’s ‘assumption’ to God.
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Yes it does.
**First of all **Scripture doesn’t speak of his "assumption to God"

Genesis 5:24 simply says:
**Then Enoch walked with God, and he was no longer here, for God took him. **
God took him - it doesn’t say to heaven.
Hebrews 11:5 says:
By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and "he was found no more because God had taken him."
Same thing
It doesn’t say heaven. It simply says that God took him before he died.

Luke 16:22 speaks of the “Bosom of Abraham”:
**When the poor man died, he was carried away by angels to the bosom of Abraham. **
He’s not in heaven

I don’t know what other proof you’re looking for.
 
elvisman said:
Yes it does.
**First of all **Scripture doesn’t speak of his "assumption to God"

Genesis 5:24 simply says:
Then Enoch walked with God, and he was no longer here, for God took him.
God took him - it doesn’t say to heaven.
Hebrews 11:5 says:
By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and "he was found no more because God had taken him."
Same thing
It doesn’t say heaven. It simply says that God took him before he died.

Luke 16:22 speaks of the “Bosom of Abraham”:
When the poor man died, he was carried away by angels to the bosom of Abraham.
He’s not in heaven

I don’t know what other proof you’re looking for.
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Well, I don’t take this literally, if that is what you mean. The simplest explanation is probably the best, and probably the more accurate.
 
elvisman said:
Meaning . . . what?
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**Meaning that Enoch might have been so old, and that he went out into the desert and they eventually lost track of him. So, when younger generations asked about Enoch, the older ones told them that “God took him.”

It’s similar to what happened in my family’s genealogy - one of my ancestors lived to 94, and those keeping the records forgot who his wife was, and they put down the wrong name for her. They forgot who she was because she died when he was in his 60s (as was she). Needless to say, this caused quite a problem in tracking down an authentic lineage and took years to correct.**
 
elvisman said:
There is no evidence of a pre-Trib "Rapture". It’s a kooky belief that was born of John Nelson Darby of England, the founder of the Plymouth Brethren.

There is no biblical evidence for this but a twisted, albeit, hopeful interpretation of 1 Thess. 4:15-17.
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Now why is it so “kooky”? 😉

As far as biblical evidence, what I stated in post #12 is a clear reference of Enoch and Noah being a type before apocalyptic judge comes to earth. You dont have to twist any scripture to see this.
 
peary said:
**Meaning that Enoch might have been so old, and that he went out into the desert and they eventually lost track of him. So, when younger generations asked about Enoch, the older ones told them that “God took him.”

It’s similar to what happened in my family’s genealogy - one of my ancestors lived to 94, and those keeping the records forgot who his wife was, and they put down the wrong name for her. They forgot who she was because she died when he was in his 60s (as was she). Needless to say, this caused quite a problem in tracking down an authentic lineage and took years to correct.**
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So then how does that make Enoch a “champion of faith” the author portrays him as in Hebrews 11? 🤷

Is the Christian faith built upon fables and tall tales?

No Way.
 
peary said:
**Meaning that Enoch might have been so old, and that he went out into the desert and they eventually lost track of him. So, when younger generations asked about Enoch, the older ones told them that “God took him.” **

It’s similar to what happened in my family’s genealogy - one of my ancestors lived to 94, and those keeping the records forgot who his wife was, and they put down the wrong name for her. They forgot who she was because she died when he was in his 60s (as was she). Needless to say, this caused quite a problem in tracking down an authentic lineage and took years to correct.
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So, you’re saying that the writers, inspired by the Holy Spirit, referencing the same story in 2 different books, simply made up a fairly tale because they lost track of Enoch?
You REALLY need to explore your faith, my friend.
 
peary said:
I suppose God could have taken him. But for what purpose?
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For what it is worth, take a gander at The Book of Enoch.

Also, reading from Jude 14-15, Enoch prophesied for God.

**Jude 14-15
Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” **
 
Lev23 said:
So then how does that make Enoch a “champion of faith” the author portrays him as in Hebrews 11? 🤷

If he was a strong man in Faith, then, yes, he is a “champion of the Faith”.

Is the Christian faith built upon fables and tall tales?

No Way.
Click to expand...
 
Lev23 said:
Now why is it so “kooky”? 😉

As far as biblical evidence, what I stated in post #12 is a clear reference of Enoch and Noah being a type before apocalyptic judge comes to earth. You dont have to twist any scripture to see this.
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It’s kooky because it’s a man-made tradition based on a misinterpretation of inspired scripture.
 
curtishouse29 said:
There is not one mention of this from the Early Church Fathers or any other Christians for that matter until the 1800s. Doesn’t that strike you as a little odd? If you look at the verses that supposedly support the pre-tribulation rapture, those verses are completely twisted around and don’t point to this supposed pre-tribulation rapture whatsoever. Anybody know the official view of the Catholic Church regarding the “pre-tribulation rapture”?
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I do not think that the catholic Church has felt a need for an “official view” as it does not preech one. From what I understand Enoch and Elisa will return (as Thisltle has informed us) “when the charity of many of his children, (for we all spring from him) shall have grown cold; and shall at last suffer death for opposing Antichrist.” The Scriptuaral mention of one shall be taken and one shall be left most probably refers to death or slavery by the NWO, the order of Antichrist.
 
Lev23 said:
As far as biblical evidence, what I stated in post #12 is a clear reference of Enoch and Noah being a type before apocalyptic judge comes to earth. You dont have to twist any scripture to see this.
Click to expand...
So which verses in the NT show the pre-trib ante-type?
 
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