Genesis and fact

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anglead56

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Hi, I heard on EWTN (Jeff Cavins) enumerate 9 points in Genesis that he says ‘we must believe’. 2 of these I find difficult and I wonder if there is any authorative text on this.
(1) must we believe that Eve was literally made from the rib of Adam
(2) must we believe that a serpent actually spoke to Adam and Eve and tempted them.
The other points ie. that all humans come from 1 pair of parents etc I can and do accept but I find there seems to be no real value to believing the above 2 points and cannot see that the church would insist in us believing such details.
Thanks
 
Many people make statements about what we “must believe” in order to be Catholic. Remember that EWTN, while a fine source of inspiration and information is NOT an official venue of Catholic teaching.

Personally I use the Catechism as the yardstick of what I must and must not believe.

Of course many on this forum will undoubtedly argue with me on that, but it works for me.

God bless
 
Thanks, that’s good advice and what I generally do. I do sometimes get into discussions with others who take EWTN and other forums as doctrine. What makes this more difficult is that the Pontifical Biblical Commission document of 1909, was the source of his statement.
Thanks again
 
:coffeeread:
CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
PART ONE: THE PROFESSION OF FAITH
Click to expand...
Article 2 - THE TRANSMISSION OF DIVINE REVELATION
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81
Sacred Scripture is **the speech of God **as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit.
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Article 3 - SACRED SCRIPTURE
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104
In Sacred Scripture, the Church constantly finds her nourishment and her strength, for she welcomes it ** not** as human word, "but as what it really is, the Word of God."

**
In the sacred books,
the Father who is in heaven
comes lovingly ❤️ to meet his children,
and talks with them.**
Click to expand...
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:bible1: “How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them! If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand …” Psalms 139:17-18b​

:bible1: “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.” Isaiah 55:8​

:bible1: “So shall **my word **be that goeth forth out of **my **mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which **I **please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto **I **sent it.” Isaiah 55:11​

:bible1: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but **my words **shall not pass away.” Matthew 24:35​

:bible1: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” John 1:1​

"And the
Word
was made flesh,
and dwelt among us,
and we saw his glory;
the glory as it were of the
only begotten of the Father,
full of grace and truth."
John 1:14
:bible1:

. . . all for Jesus+
. . . thank You Blessed Lord+
. . . thank You Sweet Spirit of our Holy God+
. . . thank you Holy Mother Mary+
. . . thank you Holy Mother Church+
. . . our
"Father Who Art in Heaven"
we love Thee+
. . . thank You Dear Father+​
 
Myqyl said:
Many people make statements about what we “must believe” in order to be Catholic. Remember that EWTN, while a fine source of inspiration and information is NOT an official venue of Catholic teaching.

Personally I use the Catechism as the yardstick of what I must and must not believe.

Of course many on this forum will undoubtedly argue with me on that, but it works for me.

God bless
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The CCC is a great source, but it is not all inclusive. In this case it is silent on the issues listed above. If it discussed it one way or the other, I would certainly give it greater weight than EWTN, but since it does not discuss it, that does not mean it is open to personal interpretation. I would suggest researching this to see if this is, in fact, a requirement for Catholics to believe or one of many possibilities.
 
anglead56 said:
Thanks, that’s good advice and what I generally do. I do sometimes get into discussions with others who take EWTN and other forums as doctrine. What makes this more difficult is that the Pontifical Biblical Commission document of 1909, was the source of his statement.
Thanks again
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Pontifical Biblical Commission document of 1909

III. It may, in particular, question the literal sense of history in those chapters which are facts that touch on the foundations of the Christian religion: these are, among others, the creation of all things by God at the beginning of time, the special creation of man, the formation of the first woman from the first man, the oneness of humanity, the happiness of our first parents in the state of original justice, integrity, and immortality, the order given by God to man to put to test his obedience; the transgression of the divine order the instigation of the devil in the guise of a serpent, and the loss of the progenitors of that primitive state of innocence and the promise of a future Redeemer?

Answer: No.
 
anglead56 said:
Hi, I heard on EWTN (Jeff Cavins) enumerate 9 points in Genesis that he says ‘we must believe’. 2 of these I find difficult and I wonder if there is any authorative text on this.
(1) must we believe that Eve was literally made from the rib of Adam
(2) must we believe that a serpent actually spoke to Adam and Eve and tempted them.
The other points ie. that all humans come from 1 pair of parents etc I can and do accept but I find there seems to be no real value to believing the above 2 points and cannot see that the church would insist in us believing such details.
Thanks
Click to expand...
On Christian Marriage Pope Leo XIII
5……We record what is to all known, and cannot be doubted by any, that God, on the sixth day of creation, having made man from the slime of the earth, and having breathed into his face the breath of life, gave him a companion, whom He miraculously took from the side of Adam when he was locked in sleep. God thus, in His most far-reaching foresight, decreed that this husband and wife should be the natural beginning of the human race, from whom it might be propagated and preserved by an unfailing fruitfulness throughout all futurity of time

Catechism 371
God created man and woman together……The woman God “fashions “from the man’s rib

Pontifical Bible Commission
Concerning the Historical Character of the First Three Chapters of Genesis
June 30, 1909 (AAS 1 [1909] 567ff; EB 332ff; Dz 2121ff)

III: In particular may the literal historical sense be called in doubt in the case of facts narrated in the same chapters which touch the foundations of the Christian religion: as are, among others, the creation of all things by God in the beginning of time; the special creation of man; the formation of the first woman from the first man; the unity of the human race; the original felicity of our first parents in the state of justice, integrity, and immortality; the command given by God to man to test his obedience; the transgression of the divine command at the instigation of the devil under the form of a serpent; the degradation of our first parents from that primeval state of innocence; and the promise of a future Redeemer?
Answer: In the negative."

The literal historical sense may not be doubted.
The Magisterium has nowhere officially recanted any of these this teachings so they are still in force.
 
anglead56 said:
Hi, I heard on EWTN (Jeff Cavins) enumerate 9 points in Genesis that he says ‘we must believe’. 2 of these I find difficult and I wonder if there is any authorative text on this.
(1) must we believe that Eve was literally made from the rib of Adam
(2) must we believe that a serpent actually spoke to Adam and Eve and tempted them.
The other points ie. that all humans come from 1 pair of parents etc I can and do accept but I find there seems to be no real value to believing the above 2 points and cannot see that the church would insist in us believing such details.
Thanks
Click to expand...
Why do you have a problem believing these two things? Do you not believe that Satan can take the form of a serpent and if not, what about what St. John describes to us in Revelation?

Also, you believe God can create something out of nothing but you have a problem with God making something from something? Eve is a “type” of the Church. Since Eve was “born” from the side of Adam, so too, the Church was “born” from the side of Christ. The Church teaches that in order for something or someone to be a “type” of something else, the “type” has to be a real person, event or place. Since Eve is a “type” she must be real and the event that brought about her must be real historically. Modern scholars like to take the opposite position but they can never produce Magisterium documents to support their exegesis. They are simply inserting their own theory because they seem to lack faith in the Word of God that has been handed down to us for over 2000 years. This is a modern day problem because we seem to have taken the supernatural our of our faith and have to relate to all the events in a way that humans can understand. This is called relativism and it is alive and well in modernity. There is a reason it is called the synthesis of all heresies.

Pax Christi.
 
This is Jeff Cavins.
I’m not sure where you came up with this list but I can assure you, the wording is not mine. It could be that you heard someone repeat what they thought I said.

What is important to remember is that Genesis 1-11 is a certain type of history, a poetic description of the beginnings. We don’t believe in a literalistic interpretation but we do believe in the truths conveyed in the narrative. Understanding the literary genre is important here. First, we must determine the Literal Sense (see CCC 112-117), which means we try to understand the intent of the human author. Then we look at the Spiritual Sense.

There are three aspects to the Spiritual Sense:
Allegorical = How does the text relate to Christ.
Moral = How does the text relate to our conduct.
Anagogical = How does the text relate to the future, our true homeland, heaven.

Yes, we do have parents who enjoyed original justice and lost it in the fall. Yes, we believe that there is an adversary, who in this poetic narrative, is called The Serpent. In the book of Revelation he is called The Dragon. We know that the Serpent was responsible for the occasion whereby Adam and Eve lost their trust in God.

Just wanted to clarify.
 

  1. *]The Doctrine of Revelation Regarding Man or "Christian Anthropology"
    *] The first man was created by God. (De fide.)
    *] The whole human race stems from one single human pair. (Sent. certa.)
    *] Man consists of two essential parts–a material body and a spiritual soul. (De fide.)
    *] The rational soul is per se the essential form of the body. (De fide.)
    *] Every human being possesses an individual soul. (De fide.)
    *] Every individual soul was immediately created out of nothing by God. (Sent. Certa.)
    *] A creature has the capacity to receive supernatural gifts. (Sent. communis.)
    *] The Supernatural presupposes Nature. (Sent communis.)
    *] God has conferred on man a supernatural Destiny. (De fide.)
    *] Our first parents, before the Fall, were endowed with sanctifying grace. (De fide.)
    *] The donum rectitudinis or integritatis in the narrower sense, i.e., the freedom from irregular desire. (Sent. fidei proxima.)
    *] The donum immortalitatis, i.e.,bodily immortality. (De fide.)
    *] The donum impassibilitatis, i.e., the freedom from suffering. (Sent. communis.)
    *] The donum scientiae, i.e., a knowledge of natural and supernatural truths infused by God. (Sent. communis.)
    *] Adam received sanctifying grace not merely for himself, but for all his posterity. (Sent. certa.)
    *] Our first parents in paradise sinned grievously through transgression of the Divine probationary commandment. (De fide.)
    *] Through the sin our first parents lost sanctifying grace and provoked the anger and the indignation of God. (De fide.)
    *] Our first parents became subject to death and to the dominion of the Devil. (De fide.) D788.
    *] Adam’s sin is transmitted to his posterity, not by imitation, but by descent. (De fide.)
    *] Original Sin consists in the deprivation of grace caused by the free act of sin committed by the head of the race. (Sent. communis.)
    *] Original sin is transmitted by natural generation. (De fide.)
    *] In the state of original sin man is deprived of sanctifying grace and all that this implies, as well as of the preternatural gifts of integrity. (De fide in regard to Sanctifying Grace and the Donum Immortalitatus. D788 et seq.)
    *] Souls who depart this life in the state of original sin are excluded from the Beatific Vision of God. (De fide.)
 
=jcavins;7727546]This is Jeff Cavins.
I’m not sure where you came up with this list but I can assure you, the wording is not mine. It could be that you heard someone repeat what they thought I said.
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What is important to remember is that Genesis 1-11 is a certain type of history, a poetic description of the beginnings
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.
Jeff can you produce a Church Father, a Council or an encyclical that uses that language?
We don’t believe in a literalistic interpretation but we do believe in the truths conveyed in the narrative. Understanding the literary genre is important here. First, we must determine the Literal Sense (see CCC 112-117), which means we try to understand the intent of the human author.
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Seems to me that the Church Fathers, the 1909 Pontifical Biblical Commission, the 1860 Council of Cologne and Pope Leo’s On Christina Marriage have already given us how we are to understand the Genesis narrative on creation…it is literal.

An Excellent book on this topic is by Father Victor Warkulwiz The Doctrines of Genesis 1-11 A Compendium and Defense of Traditional Catholic Theology on Origins.
 
The Church, at the present time, permits both the beliefs of the Creationism interpretation and the literal view.

Also when referring to the creation story which one do you refer to? There are two accounts in Genesis of the same story.
 
Labarum said:
The Church, at the present time, permits both the beliefs of the Creationism interpretation and the literal view.

Also when referring to the creation story which one do you refer to? There are two accounts in Genesis of the same story.
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Both. They are complementary. Gen 1 written from God’s perspective speaks of the order of creation, Gen 2 from man’s perspective speaks of the importance of man.
 
Hi Jeff, I am really glad you wrote. I and my wife love your series on The Great adventure and find it extremely stimulating and informative.
In your 2nd lesson: i.e the one on Gen 1-11 you listed the 9 things that the magisterium in union with the Pope has written and that we must believe.
#3 in your list:- the formation of woman from man
#7 in your list:- man’s transgression at the instigation of the devil by the serpent
The problem is this: both Pope Pius XII in Humane Generis (Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter - for the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God.) and Pope John Paul II (Address to the Pontificial Academy of Sciences 1996) have not dismissed the possibility of evolution of the human body. How then can we say that the church demands that we believe literally that ‘woman was made from man’ as this is rules out any possibility of evolution of the body.
The point about the devil taking the form of the serpent is less important but also emphasises the need to have as little irrelevant words when instructing others.
While I understand that it is not wrong to believe the literal meaning of the passages, I wonder would you say that in your opinion, we are not required to believe those two literal interpretations?
 
Basic Catholic teaching **regarding Eve and Adam **
is found in the
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, ISBN: 1-57455-109-4
Paragraphs 355-421.

The good news of Jesus Christ follows in Paragraph 422, etc.

One can put the word paragraph and its number in the Catechism’s search bar in link
www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Entering topics is also very useful since the Catechism does expand on the basics and implications. . Do check out the references in the margins and in the Index.

When one enters a paragraph number, like “paragraph 355”, and then clicks on the opening line, CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 355 the following is under the paragraph:

»
»Table of Contents
»

Blessings,
granny

Our first parent Adam was the apple of God’s eye.
(example of reality and figurative language)
 
=anglead56;7728642]The problem is this: both Pope Pius XII in Humane Generis (Church **does not forbid **that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter - for the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God.)
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Pope Pius XII did not forbid “research and discussion” and then he adds " However, this must be done in such a way that the reasons for both opinions, that is, those favorable and those unfavorable to evolution, be weighed and judged with the necessary seriousness, moderation and measure, and provided that all are prepared to submit to the judgment of the Church, to whom Christ has given the mission of interpreting authentically the Sacred Scriptures and of defending the dogmas of faith.[11] Some however, rashly transgress this liberty of discussion, when they act as if the origin of the human body from pre-existing and living matter were already completely certain and proved by the facts which have been discovered up to now and by reasoning on those facts, and as if there were nothing in the sources of divine revelation which demands the greatest moderation and caution in this question
and Pope John Paul II (Address to the Pontificial Academy of Sciences 1996) have not dismissed the possibility of evolution of the human body. How then can we say that the church demands that we believe literally that ‘woman was made from man’ as this is rules out any possibility of evolution of the body.
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Where did Pope John Paul say that in his address?
 
anglead56 said:
Hi Jeff, I am really glad you wrote. I and my wife love your series on The Great adventure and find it extremely stimulating and informative.
In your 2nd lesson: i.e the one on Gen 1-11 you listed the 9 things that the magisterium in union with the Pope has written and that we must believe.
#3 in your list:- the formation of woman from man
#7 in your list:- man’s transgression at the instigation of the devil by the serpent
The problem is this: both Pope Pius XII in Humane Generis (Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter - for the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God.) and Pope John Paul II (Address to the Pontificial Academy of Sciences 1996) have not dismissed the possibility of evolution of the human body. How then can we say that the church demands that we believe literally that ‘woman was made from man’ as this is rules out any possibility of evolution of the body.
The point about the devil taking the form of the serpent is less important but also emphasises the need to have as little irrelevant words when instructing others.
While I understand that it is not wrong to believe the literal meaning of the passages, I wonder would you say that in your opinion, we are not required to believe those two literal interpretations?
Click to expand...
The possibility of evolution of the body has been updated to mean something entirely different. As far as I know Catholic apologetics has not fully addressed recent objections to two sole parents. Hopefully, Jeff has better sources of information than I have.

However, there is a ban on evolution discussions in this forum.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6110093&postcount=2

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=410885

Evolution may be discussed in the Back Fence Forum provided specific guidelines are followed. These two posts can be found in the sticky notes at top of Forum.

Blessings,
granny

The human person is worthy of profound respect from the moment of conception.
 
grannymh said:
This quotation does not specifically mention a rib and it specifically says in the guise of a serpent.
Click to expand...
.

On Christian Marriage Pope Leo XIII
5……We record what is to all known, and cannot be doubted by any, that God, on the sixth day of creation, having made man from the slime of the earth, and having breathed into his face the breath of life, gave him a companion, whom He miraculously took from the side of Adam when he was locked in sleep. God thus, in His most far-reaching foresight, decreed that this husband and wife should be the natural beginning of the human race, from whom it might be propagated and preserved by an unfailing fruitfulness throughout all futurity of time

According to Father Warkulwiz in his book *The Doctrines of Genesis *"The Hebrew word tsela is translated as "rib. It is used forty-one times in the Old Testament and this is the only place that it is translated “rib.” It is often translated “side.”

Cyril of Jerusalem “The Scripture says that she was born out of Adams’ side.”

Thomas Aquinas “It was right for the woman to be made from a rib of man…for the sacramental signification; for from the side of Christ sleeping on the cross the Sacraments flowed.”

Augustine “Now in creating woman at the outset of the human race, by taking a rib from the side of the sleeping man, the Creator must have intended, by this act, a prophecy of Christ and his Church.”
 
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