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brb3
Guest
Perhaps …but, thats the world we live in. Catholics need to face it, not be fearful to discuss it. Afterall, there are many examples in creation that argue Against evolution…that science can’t explain.
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Arandur
Guest
Aborigines
This does have interesting implications for the early history of our ancestors, and it’s one of the reasons that I’m more comfortable with the 40-75,000 YBP period for the likely beginning and spread of our true ancestors (which corresponds with the “Out of Africa,” “Great Leap Forward,” and “Behavioral Modernity” classifications along the pre-historic timeline).
Not about Evolution
Physiology vs. Psyche
I have quoted our Pope to illustrate that I don’t think the evidence of physiologically-similar remains require us to associate the human spiritual soul with them, and so I don’t think the morphology is as important as the traces left behind of their lives–when do we see artifacts indicating their relationship with God, for instance?
Prehistoric Artifacts
I would challenge your premise about artifacts and caves being littered with them. Many artifacts are not durable or easily preserved, depending on many factors. Moreover, Australian aborigines and even many Native Americans continued for thousands of years to live in hunter-gatherer societies that did not leave much in the way of artifacts and did not involve much technological advancement.
Moreover, we have seen how the advancement of technology and artificially-constructed things has accelerated over time and at various rates across cultures. This has much to do with the culture. Western civilization made technological advancements much faster in the past millenia than any other in the world largely because of a different mindset and culture. Older civilizations made less material “progress” over longer periods. Likewise, many “primitive” hunter-gatherer societies–including current day isolated tribes in Africa and the Amazon–have remained in relative stasis, and use primarily organic artifacts subject to decay.
So I can see how mankind could have existed for tens of thousands of years before practicing agriculture, building permanent buildings, and constructing myriad durable tools.
Reliability of Data?
There could be some core errors throwing off the various converging lines of data, but that would have to be examined and analyzed on its own merit as an argument rather than just a denial.
I’ve seen this before, too, that the apparent isolation of the Australian aborigines needs to be taken into account when considering when in time our first ancestors lived. It has been common consensus for some time that the Australian aborigines have been relatively isolated for 40,000-70,000 years, but there recently have been studies determining gene flow from Indian peoples to northern tribes of aborigines about 4,000 years ago, corresponding with a change in the tools used (sharing traits in common with Indian tools of the time). However, it’s not yet clear that the quite isolated aborigine tribes interspersed completely since then; there may be southern tribes that do not share those traits, and there is at least evidence that the continent was inhabited long before the 4,000 year mark.
This does have interesting implications for the early history of our ancestors, and it’s one of the reasons that I’m more comfortable with the 40-75,000 YBP period for the likely beginning and spread of our true ancestors (which corresponds with the “Out of Africa,” “Great Leap Forward,” and “Behavioral Modernity” classifications along the pre-historic timeline).
Not about Evolution
Thank you. I’m trying to focus on the lives of our ancestors before written history, and while this does involve when in time Adam and Eve would have lived, it doesn’t need to get into their origin, biological or otherwise.
Physiology vs. Psyche
So you’re accepting the “Neanderthals” as essentially a tribe of humans (descendants of Adam). Would you place Adam and Eve before the first evidence of Neanderthal remains, then, or is that somewhat irrelevant to you?
I have quoted our Pope to illustrate that I don’t think the evidence of physiologically-similar remains require us to associate the human spiritual soul with them, and so I don’t think the morphology is as important as the traces left behind of their lives–when do we see artifacts indicating their relationship with God, for instance?
Prehistoric Artifacts
When is “short?”
I would challenge your premise about artifacts and caves being littered with them. Many artifacts are not durable or easily preserved, depending on many factors. Moreover, Australian aborigines and even many Native Americans continued for thousands of years to live in hunter-gatherer societies that did not leave much in the way of artifacts and did not involve much technological advancement.
Moreover, we have seen how the advancement of technology and artificially-constructed things has accelerated over time and at various rates across cultures. This has much to do with the culture. Western civilization made technological advancements much faster in the past millenia than any other in the world largely because of a different mindset and culture. Older civilizations made less material “progress” over longer periods. Likewise, many “primitive” hunter-gatherer societies–including current day isolated tribes in Africa and the Amazon–have remained in relative stasis, and use primarily organic artifacts subject to decay.
So I can see how mankind could have existed for tens of thousands of years before practicing agriculture, building permanent buildings, and constructing myriad durable tools.
Reliability of Data?
This sounds like a spurious accusation. I don’t think there’s that much lack of discipline and that much dishonesty across many scientific professions, many countries, and several generations, whose overall data converge from multiple disciplines create a picture of the past.
There could be some core errors throwing off the various converging lines of data, but that would have to be examined and analyzed on its own merit as an argument rather than just a denial.
You mean how or when it arose? I think advanced language is one of the markers of when Adam and Eve lived. When we see evidence of it, we are likely seeing traces our true human ancestors left behind from their own lives.
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Arandur
Guest
Possible Implications of the Pope’s Words
One of the interesting possibilities that I think could be discussed comes out of Pope Benedict XVI’s treatment of this situation. He points out that mere ingenuity (tool use, control of fire, etc) is not clear evidence of the products of human rationality and souls. Intimate relationship with God would be.
Place this in the context of what archaeological evidence we have in pre-history, and even the artifacts dated earlier than 40,000 years do not necessarily show evidence of the work of Adam’s children. Those may have been produced by clever animals (this would, of course, also mean that the human-like remains beside them would not have belonged to Adam’s children; they would not have been people with souls). In this, our Pope is saying that appearances aren’t everything. The appearance of human ingenuity is not sufficient to prove human ingenuity. The appearance of human physical form (in the skeletal remains we have, for instance) is not sufficient to prove that that creature, back in that point in time, was indeed a child of Adam with a human soul.
Co-Existence
It also admits the possibility, as Grannymh concurred, that man could have lived alongside some of these other creatures (which I would identify with the scientific classification of “hominids”).
We still have certain other issues to determine, like evidence of descent of living humans (which Cornbread pointed out with the aborigines of Australia). And there are many possibilities there, as well.
For instance, it could be that Adam and Eve did live only 20,000, 15,000, 10,000, or even only 6,000 years ago. For that to be true, their descendants would have had to replace the extant populations apparently present in all regions of the world in relatively short order (though even 1,000 years is truly a very long time in human history). This might be plausible even by currently-known data.
MRCA and the Identical Ancestors Point
Even more plausible with current data might be some possibility of interbreeding (as in the Nephelim story). There is some very interesting work defining concepts such as “Most Recent Common Ancestor” (MRCA) and the “Identical Ancestors” point, both of which can be arrived at either by mathematical demonstration (the most common use) and by genetic demonstration.
The commonly accepted MRCA points out that all humans living today may share a single common ancestor who lived only 1-2,000 years ago (and, possibly, even closer in time than that!). The IA point is a little farther back, stating that after some point (commonly positioned between 5-15,000 years ago) in our past, ALL living humans share in common the overall set of ALL ancestors living beyond that time period. It gets a little complicated, but it has to do with human reproduction rates and gene flow. There are things that influence these, like regional and social isolation.
The “Leaven of Man” or “We are all Nephelim” Theory
However, these data can actually show that, if interbreeding were allowed for, a few thousand years after Adam and Eve, ALL living people would share common descent from them. So at any time point that Adam and Eve lived, if you allowed for interbreeding on a sort of “Nephelim” principle (“sons of Heaven” and “daughters of man” being not of the same status), within a few thousand years, all living descendants of the (scientific, biological) species would be share Adam and Eve as their ancestors, having been awakened with a spiritual soul by God because they are children of Adam and Eve. With the interbreeding portion as the key, I call this approach the “Leaven of Man” or “We are all Nephelim” theory
Most Likely Possibility?
I realize that will seem distasteful to some. I myself am more in favor of seeing the pre-historic data line up to show that Adam and Eve lived 40-70,000 years ago and their children spread from Central Africa to the rest of the world in a sudden blossoming of language and civilization (“behavioral modernity”). In so doing, they likely encountered other extant creatures (whom scientists may classify as homo sapiens or homo whatever), but eventually those others went extinct (with or without any interbreeding).
Therefore, I tend to look at what happened from 40YBP and onward with keen interest, to see what was going on during the lives of our ancestors
One of the interesting possibilities that I think could be discussed comes out of Pope Benedict XVI’s treatment of this situation. He points out that mere ingenuity (tool use, control of fire, etc) is not clear evidence of the products of human rationality and souls. Intimate relationship with God would be.
Place this in the context of what archaeological evidence we have in pre-history, and even the artifacts dated earlier than 40,000 years do not necessarily show evidence of the work of Adam’s children. Those may have been produced by clever animals (this would, of course, also mean that the human-like remains beside them would not have belonged to Adam’s children; they would not have been people with souls). In this, our Pope is saying that appearances aren’t everything. The appearance of human ingenuity is not sufficient to prove human ingenuity. The appearance of human physical form (in the skeletal remains we have, for instance) is not sufficient to prove that that creature, back in that point in time, was indeed a child of Adam with a human soul.
Co-Existence
It also admits the possibility, as Grannymh concurred, that man could have lived alongside some of these other creatures (which I would identify with the scientific classification of “hominids”).
We still have certain other issues to determine, like evidence of descent of living humans (which Cornbread pointed out with the aborigines of Australia). And there are many possibilities there, as well.
For instance, it could be that Adam and Eve did live only 20,000, 15,000, 10,000, or even only 6,000 years ago. For that to be true, their descendants would have had to replace the extant populations apparently present in all regions of the world in relatively short order (though even 1,000 years is truly a very long time in human history). This might be plausible even by currently-known data.
MRCA and the Identical Ancestors Point
Even more plausible with current data might be some possibility of interbreeding (as in the Nephelim story). There is some very interesting work defining concepts such as “Most Recent Common Ancestor” (MRCA) and the “Identical Ancestors” point, both of which can be arrived at either by mathematical demonstration (the most common use) and by genetic demonstration.
The commonly accepted MRCA points out that all humans living today may share a single common ancestor who lived only 1-2,000 years ago (and, possibly, even closer in time than that!). The IA point is a little farther back, stating that after some point (commonly positioned between 5-15,000 years ago) in our past, ALL living humans share in common the overall set of ALL ancestors living beyond that time period. It gets a little complicated, but it has to do with human reproduction rates and gene flow. There are things that influence these, like regional and social isolation.
The “Leaven of Man” or “We are all Nephelim” Theory
However, these data can actually show that, if interbreeding were allowed for, a few thousand years after Adam and Eve, ALL living people would share common descent from them. So at any time point that Adam and Eve lived, if you allowed for interbreeding on a sort of “Nephelim” principle (“sons of Heaven” and “daughters of man” being not of the same status), within a few thousand years, all living descendants of the (scientific, biological) species would be share Adam and Eve as their ancestors, having been awakened with a spiritual soul by God because they are children of Adam and Eve. With the interbreeding portion as the key, I call this approach the “Leaven of Man” or “We are all Nephelim” theory
Most Likely Possibility?
I realize that will seem distasteful to some. I myself am more in favor of seeing the pre-historic data line up to show that Adam and Eve lived 40-70,000 years ago and their children spread from Central Africa to the rest of the world in a sudden blossoming of language and civilization (“behavioral modernity”). In so doing, they likely encountered other extant creatures (whom scientists may classify as homo sapiens or homo whatever), but eventually those others went extinct (with or without any interbreeding).
Therefore, I tend to look at what happened from 40YBP and onward with keen interest, to see what was going on during the lives of our ancestors
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Ion
Guest
Central point: Noah’s flood. If you do not believe it happened, everything looks different.
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brb3
Guest
Inbreeding appears very common in the Pre-Noah / Great Flood culture…based on the Genesis accounts. But, human to human, …I think we can excuse demons & fallen Angels from polluting homo sapiens’ gene pool.Possible Implications of the Pope’s Words
One of the interesting possibilities that I think could be discussed comes out of Pope Benedict XVI’s treatment of this situation. He points out that mere ingenuity (tool use, control of fire, etc) is not clear evidence of the products of human rationality and souls. Intimate relationship with God would be.
Place this in the context of what archaeological evidence we have in pre-history, and even the artifacts dated earlier than 40,000 years do not necessarily show evidence of the work of Adam’s children. Those may have been produced by clever animals (this would, of course, also mean that the human-like remains beside them would not have belonged to Adam’s children; they would not have been people with souls). In this, our Pope is saying that appearances aren’t everything. The appearance of human ingenuity is not sufficient to prove human ingenuity. The appearance of human physical form (in the skeletal remains we have, for instance) is not sufficient to prove that that creature, back in that point in time, was indeed a child of Adam with a human soul.
Co-Existence
It also admits the possibility, as Grannymh concurred, that man could have lived alongside some of these other creatures (which I would identify with the scientific classification of “hominids”).
We still have certain other issues to determine, like evidence of descent of living humans (which Cornbread pointed out with the aborigines of Australia). And there are many possibilities there, as well.
For instance, it could be that Adam and Eve did live only 20,000, 15,000, 10,000, or even only 6,000 years ago. For that to be true, their descendants would have had to replace the extant populations apparently present in all regions of the world in relatively short order (though even 1,000 years is truly a very long time in human history). This might be plausible even by currently-known data.
MRCA and the Identical Ancestors Point
Even more plausible with current data might be some possibility of interbreeding (as in the Nephelim story). There is some very interesting work defining concepts such as “Most Recent Common Ancestor” (MRCA) and the “Identical Ancestors” point, both of which can be arrived at either by mathematical demonstration (the most common use) and by genetic demonstration.
The commonly accepted MRCA points out that all humans living today may share a single common ancestor who lived only 1-2,000 years ago (and, possibly, even closer in time than that!). The IA point is a little farther back, stating that after some point (commonly positioned between 5-15,000 years ago) in our past, ALL living humans share in common the overall set of ALL ancestors living beyond that time period. It gets a little complicated, but it has to do with human reproduction rates and gene flow. There are things that influence these, like regional and social isolation.
The “Leaven of Man” or “We are all Nephelim” Theory
However, these data can actually show that, if interbreeding were allowed for, a few thousand years after Adam and Eve, ALL living people would share common descent from them. So at any time point that Adam and Eve lived, if you allowed for interbreeding on a sort of “Nephelim” principle (“sons of Heaven” and “daughters of man” being not of the same status), within a few thousand years, all living descendants of the (scientific, biological) species would be share Adam and Eve as their ancestors, having been awakened with a spiritual soul by God because they are children of Adam and Eve. With the interbreeding portion as the key, I call this approach the “Leaven of Man” or “We are all Nephelim” theory
Most Likely Possibility?
I realize that will seem distasteful to some. I myself am more in favor of seeing the pre-historic data line up to show that Adam and Eve lived 40-70,000 years ago and their children spread from Central Africa to the rest of the world in a sudden blossoming of language and civilization (“behavioral modernity”). In so doing, they likely encountered other extant creatures (whom scientists may classify as homo sapiens or homo whatever), but eventually those others went extinct (with or without any interbreeding).
Therefore, I tend to look at what happened from 40YBP and onward with keen interest, to see what was going on during the lives of our ancestors
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grannymh
Guest
Actually, it is important not to tie Noah’s flood to the first three chapters of Genesis. The main reason is that the first three chapters of Genesis are the base for essential doctrines of Catholicism. Noah’s flood does not have this status. For example, Noah did not commit the Original Sin.
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Ion
Guest
“…everything looks different.” the statement is related to the artifacts and dating.
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Ranp
Guest
I left the field of anthropology many years ago so I am very rusty and very out of date. As a teaching assistant at The Catholic University of American I help teach classes on evolution and early prehistory. As I remember the oldest town every found is Jericho, which dates back about 11,000 years ago. The earliest agriculture in the world developed in modern day Iraq, right in the area where the Garden of Eden was supposed to have been - which is a really nice coincidence.
Ran
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