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grannymh
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Please. What are the truths in the first three chapters of Genesis?
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Gorgias
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See the headings in the CCC, beginning at #295:
- God creates by wisdom and love
- God creates ‘out of nothing’
- God creates and ordered and good world
- God transcends creation and is present to it.
- God upholds and sustains creation.
(Mind you, I’m assuming that, by saying “literal truth”, you mean “historical truth”. Am I mistaken?)
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Neofight
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The significance of “Serpent” in Rev 12:9 may not be so much a linkage to Genesis, but to the “dragon” in Rev 12:3, Isaiah 27:1, Amos 9:3, and Psalm 74:13 as a symbol for evil not only in the Bible, but throughout ancient Mesopotamia.
Nit. “Serpent” not “snake”. Might not seem a big deal but “serpent” makes it easier to see the linkage to Revelation 12:9.
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grannymh
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Thank you for the truth that God is the almighty Creator of all that is visible and not visible.
Because the human person is visible, we can add the truth that the almighty God created the human person. We can also add the truth in the first chapter of Genesis that the almighty God created the human person’s nature as an unique unification of the both the material world and the spiritual world.
Please note that in my very simple basic question, I did not use the word “literal” nor did I imply “historical”.
I did mention the first three chapters of Genesis. Therefore, I hope that there will be other readers who can answer the question from the verses following the dramatic shift from Genesis 1: 25 to Genesis 1: 26. Technically, this shift can be considered a truth. This is because the first three chapters of Genesis are full with the truths of the relationship between God and the human person He created as evinced in Genesis 1: 26-27.
Here is what I asked in post 20.
“Please. What are the truths in the first three chapters of Genesis?”
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grannymh
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I woke up this morning wondering if anyone has the paragraph following the comment that the Bible isn’t a book, it’s a library, with all manner of genres contained therein. From poetry to history.
I would like to learn more about the Catholic “Economy of Salvation” (* CCC *Glossary) which apparently includes the truths expressed in the “library” of the Bible. I am already amazed at the Catholic doctrines which flow from the first three chapters of Genesis. I am sure that this older than dirt brain has not spotted all the truths. That is why I hope that readers will help me by answering the simple question: “Please. What are the truths in the first three chapters of Genesis?” (Please note that I did not say literal, historical, or figurative. I simply want to know the facts.)
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Shaolen
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Oh so sorry! I cleared out some room now!This is the tack I’d take. Shaolen’s interlocutor might not be willing to accept Augustine’s “The Literal Meaning of Genesis”, though.
p.s., Shaolen: your PM inbox is full.
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InternetWoman
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That was a rhetorical question meant for those who believe in only the literal interpretation of Genesis.
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InternetWoman
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Yes, but given that the serpent is described as a seven-headed dragon it does sort of “adjust” our thinking to who/what Eve (and Adam) were confronting in the garden. Not some small snake in the grass but a dragon, with seven heads no less!
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simpleas
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If serpent and dragon are symbols of evil, meaning satan an actual being (fallen angel) and satan means the accuser, what was in the garden with Adam and Eve? Could satan as an angel have been present in the garden? As there is no mention of him, did the writer pick a creature (snake) that was feared. Or was the accuser themselves?
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Gorgias
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No, you didn’t. But, the post in which you asked your “very simple basic question”, you responded to my post – and my post responded to your assertion that:
grannyymh:
You have only two choices: either you back away from your assertion of ‘literal’ (i.e., historical) truth, or you admit that your attempt to distance yourself from that post has some other intent. Your choice.
(To be fair, in your response to Shaolen, you noted that ‘figurative’ does not mean ‘telling a lie’. That leaves us uncertain what you mean when you assert that Genesis is ‘literally true’… after all, ‘true’ would have been sufficient in that assertion.
)You did. And, in doing so, you (implicitly) said the same thing in your previous post in which you said that you “don’t do Noah” (whatever that means). But, an assertion that “Genesis isn’t a [completely] literal book” is not refuted by a claim that only covers its first three chapters. So, even if we conceded your claims about Genesis 1-3 (which I suspect I shall not), that does not prove your point vis-a-vis Shaolen’s question about the (whole) book of Genesis.
I remember that question. It’s the “please” – that is, the refutation that Genesis is (completely) literal historical truth – that you’re having a hard time supporting.
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grannymh
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What I personally find interesting in the first three chapters of Genesis are the literal words in Genesis 1: 27. The Catholic Church has confirmed those words in paragraph 356 of the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition and other paragraphs on the literal fact that humans have a spiritual rational soul.
CCC 355 flat out uses Genesis 1: 27 as footnote 218.
355 “God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him, male and female he created them.”218 Man occupies a unique place in creation: (I) he is “in the image of God”; (II) in his own nature he unites the spiritual and material worlds; (III) he is created “male and female”; (IV) God established him in his friendship. (1700, 343)
Reference Note : 218 Gen 1:27.
By the way, one does not have to be a Catholic to use the CCC Index of Citations beginning on page 689, following paragraph 2865.
Link to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition.
Enjoy!
usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/
Small additional information. Those interested in natural science should note the shift from Genesis 1: 25 to Genesis 1: 26. That shift indicates a difference in kind.
CCC paragraph 343
343 Man is the summit of the Creator’s work, as the inspired account expresses by clearly distinguishing the creation of man from that of the other creatures.211 (355)
Reference Note : 211 Cf. Gen 1:26.
CCC 355 flat out uses Genesis 1: 27 as footnote 218.
355 “God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him, male and female he created them.”218 Man occupies a unique place in creation: (I) he is “in the image of God”; (II) in his own nature he unites the spiritual and material worlds; (III) he is created “male and female”; (IV) God established him in his friendship. (1700, 343)
Reference Note : 218 Gen 1:27.
By the way, one does not have to be a Catholic to use the CCC Index of Citations beginning on page 689, following paragraph 2865.
Link to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition.
Enjoy!
usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/
Small additional information. Those interested in natural science should note the shift from Genesis 1: 25 to Genesis 1: 26. That shift indicates a difference in kind.
CCC paragraph 343
343 Man is the summit of the Creator’s work, as the inspired account expresses by clearly distinguishing the creation of man from that of the other creatures.211 (355)
Reference Note : 211 Cf. Gen 1:26.
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Gorgias
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You’re still missing the point. Shaolen asked about “the book of Genesis”, not “the first three chapters of the book of Genesis.”
You’re correct in noting that literal narrative exists in Genesis; but unless Shaolen is trying to demonstrate that Genesis is completely free from literal narrative, then you’re missing what’s being asked of us: to help demonstrate that allegorical understandings of Genesis (and yes, especially the first three chapters) are valid ways to interpret these texts.
Isolating one verse, in the context of a whole creation narrative, is hardly the way to recognize this epic poem in terms of its genre and to understand how to interpret it.
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grannymh
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Post 15 forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13144153&postcount=15
appropriately responded to the Opening Post.
I have not completely studied chapters 4 through 50 in Genesis. Therefore, I cannot honestly say “that literal narrative exists in Genesis.” I certainly can understand that my first three chapter limit means that I will miss out on what the more informed posters are presenting about the book of Genesis.
Ancient epic poems. Great!Isolating one verse, in the context of a whole creation narrative, is hardly the way to recognize this epic poem in terms of its genre and to understand how to interpret it.
When I first learned on CAF that Adam and Eve did not exist as the founders of the human species, I also learned about ancient epic poems which had similar, kind of, stories like the verses in the beginning chapters of Genesis. Somehow, this cranky granny did not save pertinent information about these wonderful demonstrations that human beings have an inherent sense of the supernatural. Or if I did save it, it is in one of the many places my car keys choose to go.
If you would be so kind to give me your epic poem source or sources of others, it would be greatly appreciated. If there is an epic poem, especially on creation, in the creative first three chapters of Genesis, would you kindly give the citation in terms of chapter and verses. Some people do claim that there are two creation stories, thus, two epic poems.
I do apologize for post 30 forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13147241&postcount=30
which only pertains to Genesis 1: 25-27. And I do understand the point that “Isolating one verse, in the context of a whole creation narrative, is hardly the way to recognize this epic poem in terms of its genre and to understand how to interpret it.”
However, in the terms used in Catholicism, those three verses gave rise to numerous Catholic doctrines. While I am not totally sure of the connection, it seems to me that CCC 1730-1732 is somehow related to Genesis 1: 27 and Genesis 2: 16-17. On the other hand, Genesis 2:17 appears as footnotes 276 & 277 in CCC 396.
The first sentence in CCC 1700 is affirmation that the human person is worthy of profound respect. See also CCC 356 and Genesis 1: 27.
Link to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition.
usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/
These few verses eventually will be followed by looking at some more verses in the first three chapters of Genesis. I am on topic because the thread title focuses on figurative language in Genesis. The first three chapters of Genesis are in Genesis.
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Galnextdoor
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Read St. John Paul II’s Theology of the Body. He discusses the meaning of the Adam and Eve part in a very thought provoking manner.
Genesis is both figurative and literal.
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grannymh
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I agree to both figurative *and *literal. And I have heard very good things about St. John Paul II’s Theology of the Body. Thank you for the recommendation.
The saddest thing about both figurative and literal in the first three chapters of Genesis is that so many people literally object to a real Adam and a real Eve. Bamboozled is the word.
The Catholic Church maintains that Adam is real and Original Sin is real and the Divinity of Jesus Christ is real.
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Gorgias
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Hmm… if someone asked a question about the entirety of a work of which I’d only studied a small portion, I think I’d defer responding to that question.
Yep.
When I was a boy, I learned about Santa Claus. I also learned math. That doesn’t mean that math is a fairy tale.
When I get a minute, I’ll look for citations for you. In the meantime, my recollection is that Scott Hahn – among others – mentions this.
The first creation story, in Genesis 1, is the one mentioned as falling within the literary genre of epic poetry.
There are, of course, two creation stories. Only the first is in the genre of poetry.
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Gorgias
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And somehow, you have reached the conclusion that those who talk about the first are necessarily objecting to the second? That’s a rather unreasonable approach.
Psst… you know that one can hold to the creation narratives as figurative and still affirm this dogmatic teaching, don’t you?
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grannymh
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It is relatively easy to be a Catholic scientist learning the contents of the first three chapters of the book of Genesis.
Catholicism recognizes and understands two worlds, one material and one spiritual. The material world is our physical universe and inhabitants including human beings. The spiritual world is that of our Creator God including human beings.Catholicism teaches that in our own nature, there is the unique union of both the spiritual and material worlds.
General Information: *CCC *355-356; *CCC *364-366; Genesis 1:27.
Scientific explanation: Genesis 1: 26; CCC 343.
Catholicism recognizes and understands two worlds, one material and one spiritual. The material world is our physical universe and inhabitants including human beings. The spiritual world is that of our Creator God including human beings.Catholicism teaches that in our own nature, there is the unique union of both the spiritual and material worlds.
General Information: *CCC *355-356; *CCC *364-366; Genesis 1:27.
Scientific explanation: Genesis 1: 26; CCC 343.
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