Genesis Flood and Exodus historical issues

  • Thread starter Thread starter patricius79
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
P

patricius79

Guest
I’m wrestling with some questions about the flood, e.g.

if this was a local flood, as I believe, then how could the waters have gone above the mountains?

is it a sort of allegorical history, like the 7day creation?

and is the Exodus account more like a story “based on a true story”?

(I’m not deliberately doubting any point of the Catholic faith here, just thinking through it.)
 
patricius79 said:
I’m wrestling with some questions about the flood, e.g.

if this was a local flood, as I believe, then how could the waters have gone above the mountains?

is it a sort of allegorical history, like the 7day creation?

and is the Exodus account more like a story “based on a true story”?

(I’m not deliberately doubting any point of the Catholic faith here, just thinking through it.)
Click to expand...
In my view, the Flood story contains both literal and figurative elements. So there literally was a flood, and a Noah, and an ark with animals. But the extent of the flood is a figure for the extent of sin, and of the offer of salvation. It was not a local flood; it was a worldwide flood – but not so extensive as to cover all the land, nor kill all human persons, not kill all animals. And the animals on the ark were there as a figure for all life on earth. We need not believe that every species on earth was represented, because the animals who were literally on the ark were a figure representing all species.

Other stories in the OT also have both literal and figurative elements.

The Exodus story is mainly literal, but certain elements are figurative, such as the waters turning to blood. This is a figure for the waters becoming undrinkable, so that to drink would be deadly (hence the use of the term blood).
 
Ron_Conte said:
In my view, the Flood story contains both literal and figurative elements. So there literally was a flood, and a Noah, and an ark with animals. But the extent of the flood is a figure for the extent of sin, and of the offer of salvation. It was not a local flood; it was a worldwide flood – but not so extensive as to cover all the land, nor kill all human persons, not kill all animals. And the animals on the ark were there as a figure for all life on earth. We need not believe that every species on earth was represented, because the animals who were literally on the ark were a figure representing all species.

Other stories in the OT also have both literal and figurative elements.

The Exodus story is mainly literal, but certain elements are figurative, such as the waters turning to blood. This is a figure for the waters becoming undrinkable, so that to drink would be deadly (hence the use of the term blood).
Click to expand...
Very well said!
 
If all the ocean basins are leveled off water would cover the earth to a depth of around 9000 feet. If one adds the water found in deep rocks (new knowledge) the amount of water on the earth is no longer an issue. One other thought, perhaps the highest mountains at the time were no higher than 9000 feet.

Exodus and the flood are historical.
 
thanks everyone!

Buffalo, how sure are you that your ideas do not conflict with science? I need to know so that I don’t pass on a false argument, when I don’t need to anyway

Copland, my same question to you

(Evangelical Catholic apologetics, correct me if I’m wrong, says that there was no worldwide flood. and they cite an article “proving” that the Bible is describing a local flood)
 
patricius79 said:
I’m wrestling with some questions about the flood, e.g.

if this was a local flood, as I believe, then how could the waters have gone above the mountains?

is it a sort of allegorical history, like the 7day creation?

and is the Exodus account more like a story “based on a true story”?

(I’m not deliberately doubting any point of the Catholic faith here, just thinking through it.)
Click to expand...
There are stories of worldwide floods in other cultures. The Babylonian flood story comes immediately to mind.

The Exodus account has not been identified with any chronological precision, but the sties identified in the story can be located with certain degrees of accuracy, and topographical details (e.g. of Sinai) reflect personal eye-witness knowledge. The ritual memorial of the crossing of the Red Sea gives additional credence to a historical foundation. The reason some scholars reject the historicity of Exodus is because 1) no secular source of the exodus exists, 2) the numbers (600,000 males, 2,000,000 total Israelites) involved in the exodus appear too large to survive in the Sinai peninsula for an extended period of time (according to naturalist assumptions), 3) Supernatural events (e.g. parting of Red Sea, manna, etc.) strike secular scholars as too fantastic to be believed, therefore bearing on the historical reliability of the text in general.
 
Ron_Conte said:
In my view, the Flood story contains both literal and figurative elements. So there literally was a flood, and a Noah, and an ark with animals. But the extent of the flood is a figure for the extent of sin, and of the offer of salvation. It was not a local flood; it was a worldwide flood – but not so extensive as to cover all the land, nor kill all human persons, not kill all animals. And the animals on the ark were there as a figure for all life on earth. We need not believe that every species on earth was represented, because the animals who were literally on the ark were a figure representing all species.

Other stories in the OT also have both literal and figurative elements.

The Exodus story is mainly literal, but certain elements are figurative, such as the waters turning to blood. This is a figure for the waters becoming undrinkable, so that to drink would be deadly (hence the use of the term blood).
Click to expand...
There is no Biblical basis for these statements.

Peace,
Ed
 
Madaglan said:
There are stories of worldwide floods in other cultures. The Babylonian flood story comes immediately to mind.

The Exodus account has not been identified with any chronological precision, but the sties identified in the story can be located with certain degrees of accuracy, and topographical details (e.g. of Sinai) reflect personal eye-witness knowledge. The ritual memorial of the crossing of the Red Sea gives additional credence to a historical foundation. The reason some scholars reject the historicity of Exodus is because 1) no secular source of the exodus exists, 2) the numbers (600,000 males, 2,000,000 total Israelites) involved in the exodus appear too large to survive in the Sinai peninsula for an extended period of time (according to naturalist assumptions), 3) Supernatural events (e.g. parting of Red Sea, manna, etc.) strike secular scholars as too fantastic to be believed, therefore bearing on the historical reliability of the text in general.
Click to expand...
The Exodus story has come into question because God has been removed from the picture. Using only a secular perspective removes the God of Israel who brought them out of Egypt “with a mighty hand.” What, modern Jews were just celebrating a fable all these years at Passover? I think not. Just as secular scholars would have a hard time believing that a crucified man could come back to life, bodily, after three days.

Peace,
Ed
 
edwest2 said:
The Exodus story has come into question because God has been removed from the picture. Using only a secular perspective removes the God of Israel who brought them out of Egypt “with a mighty hand.” What, modern Jews were just celebrating a fable all these years at Passover? I think not. Just as secular scholars would have a hard time believing that a crucified man could come back to life, bodily, after three days.

Peace,
Ed
Click to expand...
You are right. The stories related in exodus are accounts of God working in history to save the Israelites. God works in history, even using miraculous means to save.

As way of rejoinder to the three secular objections to the historicity of exodus:
  1. No secular, historical evidence of exodus - while there are no records of a mass exodus as described in the book, we know that slaves and other groups traversed the Sinai Peninsula, and that the route itself, as described in the text, presents striking details that suggest an eye-witness account.
  2. Large number of people could not survive in wilderness - the belief that God supernaturally intervened (e.g. providing manna), where without God they would have perished under natural circumstances.
  3. Objection of historicity due to supernatural events - if one believes that God exists and works in creation, this is not a problem.
 
patricius79 said:
I’m wrestling with some questions about the flood, e.g.

if this was a local flood, as I believe, then how could the waters have gone above the mountains?

is it a sort of allegorical history, like the 7day creation?

and is the Exodus account more like a story “based on a true story”?

(I’m not deliberately doubting any point of the Catholic faith here, just thinking through it.)
Click to expand...
Why not take the word of God literally. Do not be a Modernist, adjusting every revelation true or false or half true or half false based on what Modern science tells you. Sure its no wonder few believe anything traditional anymore. Do you really think the Scriptures would describe the worldwide flood in detail, and a theology based on it if it was only a local flood. Do you really think the Bible would tell us only 8 humans survived if millions survived elsewhere. What sort of nonsensical revelation would that be? The height of today’s mountains are a result of the Flood and it was the seismic eruptions that occurred during the flood and the shifting plates thereafter that caused the likes of Mt Everest. Who knows what height they were before the Flood. The idea that science shows this or that is of no worth compared with the omnipotent power of God. Science shows us there could not have been a virgin birth, nor a rising from the dead, nor the hundreds of miracles then and since then. but you do believe in them, don’t you? The Ark represents Christ, the only way to salvation. But if you go according to modern science millions were saved outside the Ark. What theology remains once modern science gets finished with it, none.
 
patricius79 said:
thanks everyone!

Buffalo, how sure are you that your ideas do not conflict with science? I need to know so that I don’t pass on a false argument, when I don’t need to anyway

Copland, my same question to you

(Evangelical Catholic apologetics, correct me if I’m wrong, says that there was no worldwide flood. and they cite an article “proving” that the Bible is describing a local flood)
Click to expand...
Enough water? Confident.
9000 feet deep? Confident.
Catastrophism - Confident.

Height of highest mountain at the time - not sure. Need more data to come in.

Flood stories all over the world (over 500)in separated cultures. Something big happened.

Ancient Chinese Characters -

Exodus - Mt Sinai was incorrectly enshrined by Helena mother of Constantine. So of course no evidence is found there.

But look here: The burned mountain top of Jabal Al Lawz:

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRj7Am0ka7itRprxm6k5W8xL3f3f_O-wMmwfJBpvKqqc6QPf30Y

http://image58.webshots.com/658/0/12/66/2204012660100178050lIxicN_ph.jpg

Go to google earth and zoom in to see the evidence for yourself.

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSgD63q5uSTXzYvUxfy3JZ8B0Km-__ozwUBkg-BtEpnKeTGdqJDaQ
 
patricius79 said:
I’m wrestling with some questions about the flood, e.g.

if this was a local flood, as I believe, then how could the waters have gone above the mountains?

is it a sort of allegorical history, like the 7day creation?

and is the Exodus account more like a story “based on a true story”?

(I’m not deliberately doubting any point of the Catholic faith here, just thinking through it.)
Click to expand...
or the Genesis flood story, since it appears also in the lore of other ancient mideast civilizations, may relate a real geological event that affected the entire area known to those civilizations in a past age. the story of how one particular family prepared for and reacted to that event is the point of the Genesis story. Just as it is not necessary to explain precisely how each species of flora and fauna were created or evolved, neither is it necessary to explain the science behind the flood in order to appreciate the point of the story. Mankind has faced natural disasters throughout our history, God has intervened in human history for his own purposes and has chosen individuals at certain times in human history through whom he acts and whom he calls for his own purpose.
 
If anyone listens only to science, then what did God do? Nothing? Did Jesus raise the dead, give sight to the blind and cleanse the lepers, instantly, and without technology? What would a scientist standing right next to Him tell us today about how He did it?

“Genesis does not contain purified myths.” Pontifical Biblical Commission, 1909.

Peace,
Ed
 
buffalo said:
Enough water? Confident.
9000 feet deep? Confident.
Catastrophism - Confident.

Height of highest mountain at the time - not sure. Need more data to come in.

Flood stories all over the world (over 500)in separated cultures. Something big happened.

Ancient Chinese Characters -

Exodus - Mt Sinai was incorrectly enshrined by Helena mother of Constantine. So of course no evidence is found there.

But look here: The burned mountain top of Jabal Al Lawz:

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRj7Am0ka7itRprxm6k5W8xL3f3f_O-wMmwfJBpvKqqc6QPf30Y

http://image58.webshots.com/658/0/12/66/2204012660100178050lIxicN_ph.jpg

Go to google earth and zoom in to see the evidence for yourself.

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSgD63q5uSTXzYvUxfy3JZ8B0Km-__ozwUBkg-BtEpnKeTGdqJDaQ
Click to expand...
St. Catherine’s Monastery, at the site of Mt. Horeb/Mt. Sinai, has the original Burning Bush to this day. cruises.about.com/od/asiacruises/ig/St–Catherines-Burning-Bush/st_katherines018.htm

So, there is evidence to be found there!
 
buffalo said:
Enough water? Confident.
9000 feet deep? Confident.
Catastrophism - Confident.

Height of highest mountain at the time - not sure. Need more data to come in.

Flood stories all over the world (over 500)in separated cultures. Something big happened.

Ancient Chinese Characters -

Exodus - Mt Sinai was incorrectly enshrined by Helena mother of Constantine. So of course no evidence is found there.

But look here: The burned mountain top of Jabal Al Lawz:

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRj7Am0ka7itRprxm6k5W8xL3f3f_O-wMmwfJBpvKqqc6QPf30Y

http://image58.webshots.com/658/0/12/66/2204012660100178050lIxicN_ph.jpg

Go to google earth and zoom in to see the evidence for yourself.

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSgD63q5uSTXzYvUxfy3JZ8B0Km-__ozwUBkg-BtEpnKeTGdqJDaQ
Click to expand...
thanks Buffalo. could you or someone explain what is the problem with this paper form Evangelical Catholic Apologetics, an orthodox Catholic site?

philvaz.com/apologetics/p82.htm
 
The Impossible Voyage of Noah’s Ark
ncse.com/cej/4/1/impossible-voyage-noahs-ark

talkorigins.org/

answersincreation.org/noah_ark_feasibility_study.htm

hubpages.com/hub/Noahs-Ark-An-Impossible-Voyage-Part-V
hubpages.com/hub/Noahs-Ark-An-Impossible-Voyage-Part-IV
hubpages.com/hub/Noahs-Ark-An-Impossible-VOyage-Part-III
hubpages.com/hub/Noahs-Ark-The-Impossible-Voyage-Part-II
hubpages.com/hub/Noahs-Ark-The-Impossible-Voyage

How Good Are Those Young-Earth Arguments?
talkorigins.org/faqs/hovind/howgood.html

google.com/#hl=en&expIds=17259,23756,24692,24878,24879,27400,27586&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=water+capony+pressure+cooker+noah&cp=33&pf=p&sclient=psy&rlz=1W1ADBF_en&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=water+capony+pressure+cooker+noah&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=7b989c6c17f79c85

**Just try using common sense, ** Lets say the eight people on the ark, slept 8 hours and used one hour for caring for themselves each day which leaves them 15 hours to work.

That gives them a total of 15 hours times 60 mintues times 8 people which gives them
7,200 work mintues a day. Given that they take only 5 mintues (not realistic in real world) to feed and clean up after each animal each day that gives them a **max of 1,440 animals to care for each day. **

Now go ask your Young Earth Creationist, how many animals was on Noah’s Ark.

The most likely answer you will get is about 16,000 animals.

Now ask yourself,

How much weight in food and waste would each person have to move each day?

What about special needs like exercise, grooming, etc.,

One author realizes this problem and limits the animals to 280 animals. noahs-ark-flood.com/animals.htm

biblestudy.org/basicart/was-noah-ark-big-enough-to-hold-all-animals.html
 
Common sense tells me that the work of God is not the work of man.

Peace,
Ed
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top