Genesis

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He is misunderstanding “figuratively” here. “Figurative” has to do with such things as “eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge”, the “fruit” and “tree” may be figurative; now, if the Bible said, “And then Eve ate an apple from the apple tree of knowledge of good and evil”, one would be required to take it literally if one believes the Bible is inerrant, e.g. the Catholic Church (although there are dissenting interpretations of Dei Verbum). As it is currently phrased, context allows the “fruit” to be generalized, and only the “sin” concretized.

But, in this, the genealogies, the Bible states categorically a plain, mathematical fact: there are two choices: 1) the Bible is wrong, and the author lied or fictionalized, or 2) the fact is correct.

I also take exception to the Church “moving in this direction”. The Church does not move; its doctrines are eternal and immutable. If this is the case, St Thomas Aquinas reading Genesis in the 1200s, or St Paul reading it in the first century, could not have had a correct understanding of it. Modern naturalistic science has come and said “thus it is”, and religion has bowed, and said, “we reinterpret the Bible, we read your discoveries in to it”. So has it ever been: when has there ever been a time where religion has said, “Thus it is so”, and the naturalistic scientists said, “Yea, it is: therefore although our facts are right, our philosophical framework is not, and our interpretations are incorrect: we must take the facts and re-interpret them in to a non-atheistic framework”?

Long age interpretations were never thought of before “deep time” uniformitarianism because popular in the mid-19th century. No one, before Lyell and Darwin, reading the Bible, came to any conclusions like those reading after, and influenced, by such men, would. This is called eisegesis, or poor exegesis, and involves reading external material and pre-conceived notions in to the Biblical text, instead of letting the text speak for itself. Note that this does not discount a sensus plenior. We’ll speak more on this below.

A mark of eisegesis is the extensive use of verbal gymnastics, redefinition, and rhetorical legerdemain, setting one verse against another and reading outside of context: thus, the word “yom” in Genesis 1 can technically mean “indefinite period of time”, but in the context it is given, with both “evening and morning” and a cardinal or ordinal number, it must mean a 24-hour day; whenever “yom” is used with these modifiers, it indicates either 1) the daylight period, 2) a 24-hour period of day and night. Now, in Genesis 2, “yom” is appended with the preposition “b” (making “be’yom”), which is a figurative usage: “In the day when the LORD created the heaven and earth”, analogous to our English usage, “in the day of the Apostles”.

Now, Scripture has multiple senses. All of these senses are based on the literal, or, more correctly, the historico-grammatical. It is quite possible that great and decreasing longevity was a sign of spiritual decay; but if no men actually had great longevity, the allegorical interpretation falls apart, as the Biblical author is at best using a lie to illustrate a spiritual truth - and what kind of truth is it, that is illustrated with a lie? If the sole meaning was of spiritual decay, the inspired author could have said so easily in far fewer words, or appended, “and their ages decreased due to sin”. The Bible, in fact, does state so, although not quite as plainly: but such an interpretation presupposes individuals with the stated ages in order to be coherent!

Take the Ark of Noah to be another example; it has been interpreted as a type of the Church. This is because those who were in the ark were saved, and required the ark to be saved, and those who were without, perished. Now, if no one in the historical ark was actually saved, and those who were outside of it didn’t perish - that is, if there was not a global flood - the typology is meaningless. If there was no ark and no flood, it becomes obvious that it is fruitless, and, indeed, insane to interpret it as a type of the Church. For if the ark did not exist, the typology does not exist; if men were not saved in it, and did not perish outside of it, it no longer has any analogy with the Church. A type that did not exist has been interpreted as having an antitype in the Church. If one persists with this line of reasoning, the Church does not exist! One must both abandon the typology, and confess that the Biblical author was not only incorrect, but that he invented an absolute myth, which myth was then interpreted as foreshadowing the Church.

(Continued below)
 
(Continued from above)

One could now just as easily search for allusions to Christ and his religion in the Odyssey, the Iliad, the Theogony, the Works and Days, the Aeneid, and the Metamorphoses! - and they would be equally true and valid, as in this case, “truth” and “validity” have lost all dimension of “correspondence to reality”, and have become some sort of nebulous concept of “spiritually beneficial fictions”, or myths, or lies. Thus, if “truth” does not correspond to reality, and the definition of a “lie” is “does not correspond to reality”, the very definition of truth is lie!

For, if such is the case, each is equally true, and “inspiration” loses its meaning; Homer was an “inspired” artist and author of fiction, and nothing more could be said about the author of the account of the ark.

More to come quite soon.

I close, due to length requirements, with a passage you should meditate on and read prayerfully, written by Pope St Peter:

"Knowing this first of all, that** scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing**, following their own sinful desires. They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” *

For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly." (2 Pet 3:3-7 ESV)

Is St Peter himself using a fiction, a falsehood, to illustrate the impending judgment? By comparing it with a non-existent past judgment? If so, are we not right to say, if the coming judgment - by the same word, nonetheless - is going to be similar to the past one, that, in truth, no judgment is coming at all, just as no Deluge came before?

(The below are notes to myself on parts of the response I have not yet fleshed out; ignore them)

The supposed incorrect value of pi given for the brazen bath in Kings.

Now, with Galileo (after "science reinterprets Bible, Ptolemy, Copernicus, Einstein’s special relativity (maybe discuss simultaneity, impossibility) shows that from frame of reference Earth, Ptolemy was correct, and from frame of reference sun, Copernicus was correct; all that can be said is that Copernicus allows a simpler mathematical explanation of orbits, etc., not that he is more true in any sense. Frames of reference.)

One can understand whether something is allowed to be, or designed to be, taken figuratively from context. Now, with the “toledot” (“these are the generations of”) in Genesis, the context does not allow such a figurative reading.*
 
But, in this, the genealogies, the Bible states categorically a plain, mathematical fact: there are two choices: 1) the Bible is wrong, and the author lied or fictionalized, or 2) the fact is correct.
John talks about “144,000” in the Book of Revelations – a “plain, mathematical fact”. Does that mean that, unless there are only 144,000 in heaven, “the Bible is wrong”? :rolleyes:
 
Context, context, context!

Revelation is a vision, a parable, a metaphor, all the way through. There are, possibly, a few literal statements in the book - mainly the introduction, and the last part that begins, “whosoever addeth or taketh away from the words of this book, such will be added unto the plagues therein; such will have their part subtracted from the Book [or Tree] of Life”. Some say the “144,000” is an indefinite number. The argument in favour of this is symmetry: a dozen of a dozen thousands. Possibly, but it seems to my eye to be too exact (although much less exact than “963 years were his days”). It seems that the 144,000 should be read in the context of a highly-allegorical, metaphorical vision, like the angels in the visions of Ezekiel. That is, it is symbolical itself, and indefinite in a sense, narrowly differentiated from the above.

In other words, are there really physical saints in the immaterial heaven offering prayers transmuted in to incense before the Lord? So that he can smell our requests? Nonetheless, the book is profoundly true and profoundly moving - just as Jesus’ parables are, and, likewise, in both situations the context can tell us that the author is not speaking historically: which vineyard, again, and which master paid his workers “unfairly”? Which vineyard had the tenants come to and kill the Son? Now, when Jesus says, “From Abel to Zechariah”, it appears that he is speaking historically.

Now, one could argue that Genesis is a highly-allegorical, metaphorical narrative…but none of the hallmarks of Hebrew poetry or metaphor (mainly repetition of ideas) are there, outside of a few passages (such as Gen 1:26f, “made in the image of God, in the image and likeness of God he created him, male and female he created them” - the “image” is a key to determining this passage is poetical), and I don’t believe one would get too far.

“Literal” doesn’t mean “literalistic”; that’s why I mention “historico-grammatical”, a “plain” reading, which often is literal, but takes in to account the literary features, genre, etc. of a passage, and thus does not fall in to a crass literalism as Origen did. The famous allegorizer of the Bible - nothing in it was truly real or true for him - spiritualized away every last passage: but when he came to the one that said “Are born eunuchs, or are made eunuchs by men, or make themselves eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven”, he took it literally and castrated himself. A failure of the historico-critical method: even more of a failure of the allegorical!

The rest of my post stands (for now) - keep 'em coming, I like honing my skills here (both here, as in “in this area”, and here, as in CAF).
 
Erratum: “…a failure of the historico-grammatical [not historico-critical] method…”

As iron sharpens iron, so doth one man sharpen another.
 
I’ll give you the short answer-no!
I was going to say that I’m not sure what you’re saying “no” to, after I reread my quote and your reply I think I get it now. :o You’re saying that we don’t have to take these ages literally, right?
 
He is misunderstanding “figuratively” here. “Figurative” has to do with such things as “eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge”, the “fruit” and “tree” may be figurative; now, if the Bible said, “And then Eve ate an apple from the apple tree of knowledge of good and evil”, one would be required to take it literally if one believes the Bible is inerrant, e.g. the Catholic Church (although there are dissenting interpretations of Dei Verbum). As it is currently phrased, context allows the “fruit” to be generalized, and only the “sin” concretized.

But, in this, the genealogies, the Bible states categorically a plain, mathematical fact: there are two choices: 1) the Bible is wrong, and the author lied or fictionalized, or 2) the fact is correct.

I also take exception to the Church “moving in this direction”.
With all due respect, I think someone representing CA would have a firmer understanding of what we’re to believe than any of posters.
Here is another reply from CA to this question:catholic.com/quickquestions/did-people-really-live-for-900-years-as-described-in-genesis
 
I was going to say that I’m not sure what you’re saying “no” to, after I reread my quote and your reply I think I get it now. :o You’re saying that we don’t have to take these ages literally, right?
Correct. That God created the universe out of nothing, we have to believe, that we are all descended from two parents, we have to believe, that there was a "Fall " we have to believe and that we need a Redeemer because of that fall, we have to believe. There is no bookin our church that dissects every line of scripture .it would be impossible. Just think.what is more important to believe. That God created the world out of nothing or that Methuselah lived 900 years.
 
I was looking up information about whether Catholics are expected to believe that people in Genesis really lived to be 900+ years old. I found this video where Tim Staples addresses this and does a fine job.
Thoughts?

catholic.com/video/is-genesis-to-be-understood-figuratively
I’ve never had a problem accepting the long life spans. We see a regular decline in lifespans: Adam lived 930 years, Sem 600, Thare 205, Abraham 175, Moses 120. I’ve always attributed this decline to the effect of original sin.
 
What 's cool about being Catholic and not a fundamentalist is that it you are free to believe the ages the old testament or not.
 
What 's cool about being Catholic and not a fundamentalist is that it you are free to believe the ages the old testament or not.
Honestly, I could never embrace fundamentalism. Some things (not just the ages in the OT) simply make no sense to me and if I was told that I had to believe such and such, I’d have to leave the church.
 
According to Genesis Adam and Eve had preternatural gifts. Presumably this meant they were genetically pristine so long ages is not an issue.

Why would anyone think it not possible?
 
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