Genesis ???

[Prayer_Warrior]

By accepting the theory of evilution, you accept the idea that death occured prior to sin and that does not make sense, since the penalty for sin was death.

p.s. I have one other ??. What does it mean theat you ‘catholics’ are “required” to believe something. Isn’t the whole idea of faith based on the evidence of things not seen ???

***‘Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for. By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, l so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.’ *** Heb 11:1-3

Have a nice day !!

I didn’t say I accepted the theory of evolution regarding humans. Physical death clearly entered the world for plants and animals prior to the fall of mankind. We fill up our gas tanks as a result of it. Animals and plants do not have eternal souls, never did as far I can see from scripture or Church teaching. The “tree of life” was meant for humankind. If you want to believe that no plant or animal died before the fall of man, you go right ahead. I believe you truly short change the masterful plan of God… were it not for the explosion of plant and animal life millions of years ago and their subsequent deaths, we would not have had a major fuel supply that saw us through until our God-given technology comes up with something else.

Of course, I do not discount the possibility that God decided to create everything in 6 human days (though scripture clearly tells us that a day to God is like a thousand years- a term which in Jewish idiom which means " a really long time"). With God all things are possible, but the Bible does not say that each of these days were human days, does it?? It just says “days” and I choose to believe that it is referring to one of God’s days.

What I mean by “required belief” is that if you do not believe in official teachings of the Church than you are being disobedient to the Church that Jesus founded. Let me put it this way, if you want to claim you are a Christian, isn’t it required that you believe that Jesus is our Savior, the Son of God? Which, by the way, is another required belief of the Catholic Church. I was simply saying there are teachings we must believe in order to call ourselves Catholic, there are teachings you must believe in order to call yourself a Christian.

 

[tm30]

i am concerned about those of you who claim that the Book of Genesis is not ALL truth. The Bible is God’s INSPIRED word to us, complete and infallible.

ALL Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16-17

So I ask what part of Genesis do you think is not quite up to standards with 2 Timothy ???

Have a Good Day !

Do you tell people the sun sets in the west? If so, why? Why are you lying to people and telling them it sets in the west? Everyone knows the sun doesn’t “set”. It’s the rotation of the earth on its axis that brings nightfall by turning away from the sun.

Now. Do you see where I’m going with this?

Does the sun set in the west? Of course it does - everyone knows that! Is that factual? No, of course not! But by saying that “the sun sets in the west”, you are conveying a truth about the position of the sun as opposed to your immediate location when nightfall comes. So when you say, “the sun sets in the west”, despite the fact its utterly scientfically false, no one is going to call you a liar because that statement still conveys a truth.

God did not “dictate” Genesis or any of the other books. The HUMAN authors were inspired to convey infallible TRUTH by the means they were familiar with at the time which their audience would understand. e.g., the author of Genesis did not include a scientific recap of Creation because, well, science obviously wasn’t his forte, the knowledge didn’t exist in the first place and the average Hebrew had other things to worry about even if he COULD add an explanation to Genesis. Thus, in addressing his audience of mostly illiterate and uneducated and transient Hebrews, he used his skills, by the inspiration of God, to convey infallible Truth in the manner best suited to his environment.

 

[tm30]

i am sure (not being catholic i am really not sure actually) that the early ***‘church fathers’ ***that are always being refered to here did not believe in evilution, they believed it just the way the Bible spells it out.
Have a great day !!

They didn’t believe in Joseph Smith, either.

 

[trth_skr]

Genesis is a factual account. Whether it is consistent with the modern scientific viewpoint is open to debate, and somewhat unconsequential.

The creation was real, Adam and Eve were real, the flood was real. The absolute literalness of some of the times, etc. are somewhat open to debate, but these things actually occured.

Genesis is not myth. This is the big lie of the modernists.

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com

 

[trth_skr]

Do you tell people the sun sets in the west? If so, why? Why are you lying to people and telling them it sets in the west? Everyone knows the sun doesn’t “set”. It’s the rotation of the earth on its axis that brings nightfall by turning away from the sun.

Or it could be the rotation of the universe around the common earth-universal axis. In either case, it is still figurative speech. The sun does not set in either the heliocentric or the geocentric picture.

Genesis is not figurative speech. It is clear from context when figurative speech is used.

God did not “dictate” Genesis or any of the other books.

Pope Leo XIII (Providentissimus Deus:

For all the books which the Church receives as sacred and canonical, are written wholly and entirely, with all their parts, at the dictation of the Holy Ghost; and so far is it from being possible that any error can co-exist with inspiration, that inspiration not only is essentially incompatible with error, but excludes and rejects it as absolutely and necessarily as it is impossible that God Himself, the supreme Truth, can utter that which is not true.

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com

 

[JimG]

Let me put this another way, do you guys believe in creation or evolution ??

Speaking for myself, the anser is yes.

I believe in creation because God created everything.

I believe in evolution because He didn’t create everything all at once. So apparently, there was some type of change over time. That has nothing to do with theism or atheism.

 

[tm30]

Genesis is not figurative speech. It is clear from context when figurative speech is used.

Okaaaaaayyyyy. So how was time measured during the first three days of Creation?

 

[tm30]

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.comMark Wyatt
[www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com](http://www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com/)

By the way - VERY interesting site you have . I have it bookmarked.

 

[patg]

Genesis is not figurative speech.

Genesis is figurative speech.

It is clear from context when figurative speech is used.

That’s how we know it is a myth. Genesis is mostly myth by the definition of the word. Those interested in how the church presents this should read “And God Said What?” by Margaret Ralph. This book is used as the textboook in a great many parish’s adult scriptural education classes.

 

[trth_skr]

Okaaaaaayyyyy. So how was time measured during the first three days of Creation?

Prior to the fourth day, (my understanding) is that it is more open, since the sun was created on the fourth day. So there may be more wiggle room in the first three days (if you are looking for such).

Since the entire creation is “something out of nothing”, i.e., miraculous, I do not know why it could not have happened exactly as stated (in seven days). God is not limited to our current understanding of science.

Note: More literal interpretations of Genesis are pretty rare these days. For everyone’s information, the next Catholic Apologetics Study Bible to be put out by Robert Sungenis will be Genesis. I suspect it will have a very literal (and thus consistent with the Church fathers, yes including Augustine ) teaching in it.

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com

 

[trth_skr]

…Those interested in how the church presents this should read “And God Said What?” by Margaret Ralph. This book is used as the textboook in a great many parish’s adult scriptural education classes.

You might also check out St. Augustine: *The Literal Meaning of Genesis. *
*
This is probably more consistent with teaching throughout the 2000 year history of the Church. I personally am very cautious about current “popular” books on theological topics (though I do want to read the Pope’s new book on Jesus). Recent decades especially, and the last century have seen a lot of innovation in the area of Scriptural interpretation. When in doubt, stick with what the Church has always taught.

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com

 

[trth_skr]

By the way - VERY interesting site you have . I have it bookmarked.

Thanks, tm30.

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com

 

[anthony022071]

Genesis becomes more recognizably factual and historical from
around chapter 12,with Abraham. The earlier parts are necessarily more mythological in nature,for lack of more detailed,fleshed-out information than the scripture-writers had as to what happened,and when,
in the far-distant past. Scientists,historians,archeologists and anthropologists have to do their own myth-making when they are dealing with anything that happened before about 3000BC with the first Sumerian cities and written records (what I call the horizon of history). Before this period,there are just artifacts,fossils,skeletons,footprints,handprints,cave art,primitive tools. So the murky,indistinct history of Earth and man has to be
delineated and fleshed out with a lot of conjecture which passes for fact.
And the scientists,historians,archeologists and anthropologists
have to compress millions of years of conjectural history into a few paragraphs,digestable and believable to the general public.

 

[trth_skr]

…Scientists,historians,archeologists and anthropologists have to do their own myth-making when they are dealing with anything that happened before about 3000BC with the first Sumerian cities and written records (what I call the horizon of history). Before this period,there are just artifacts,fossils,skeletons,footprints,handprints,cave art,primitive tools. So the murky,indistinct history of Earth and man has to be
delineated and fleshed out with a lot of conjecture which passes for fact.
And the scientists,historians,archeologists and anthropologists
have to compress millions of years of conjectural history into a few paragraphs,digestable and believable to the general public.

It is because of this weakness of "scientists,historians,archeologists and anthropologists ", a weakness that God does not suffer from, that Genesis could be quite literal, yet not appear so to "scientists,historians,archeologists and anthropologists ".

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com

 

[zackonattack]

Of course ALL the Word of God, including ALL of Genesis is true. Why do you think that Satan has been attacking the book of Genesis in particular, and the whole bible in general. The foundation of Christianity is set forth in the Book of Genesis. There is no proof whatsoever that Genesis was written by J, P etc. That is just so-called “higher criticism,” which I’m sure God is really impressed with.
The first 11 chapters of Genesis in particular have been attacked as myth and fairy tales. From those chapters you get the first part of the Apostles Creed, the creation of the universe, the creation of man, orginal sin etc. When Adam and Eve were standing in the Garden they were not standing on millions of years of dead bones (like evolutionists teach) since death did not come into existence until Adam sinned. Jesus and the other writers of the New Testament referred to the book of Genesis on numerous accounts. That’s good enough for me. I take the word of Jesus over the “higher critics.” All these people that attack the book of Genesis are just poor, lost pagan souls. Anyone regenerated by the power of the Holy Spirit and born from above, would have no doubt whatsoever about the Inspired scriptures. By the way, the whole bible, OT and NT are inerrant. (CCC #107) They don’t just “contain” the word of God, but ARE the Words of God. The bible is God’s revelation to man in an objectively verifiable format–the written Word. It is written so man does not have any excuse for not knowning what God wants us to know. It is my opinion that what the so-called “higher criticism” teaches us that is of any value, can be written on the back of a postage stamp. Read the Word of God, meditate on the Word day and night, and treasure the fact that God has given his revelation to us in space, time and history. Please refer to paragraph 107 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC). To me that settles it. There is nothing to debate. God doesn’t reveal in his Word, or confuse people with myths and fairy tales. We need to get on our knees and praise God for his WORD.

 

[zackonattack]

Genesis becomes more recognizably factual and historical from
around chapter 12,with Abraham. The earlier parts are necessarily more mythological in nature,for lack of more detailed,fleshed-out information than the scripture-writers had as to what happened,and when,
in the far-distant past. Scientists,historians,archeologists and anthropologists have to do their own myth-making when they are dealing with anything that happened before about 3000BC with the first Sumerian cities and written records (what I call the horizon of history). Before this period,there are just artifacts,fossils,skeletons,footprints,handprints,cave art,primitive tools. So the murky,indistinct history of Earth and man has to be
delineated and fleshed out with a lot of conjecture which passes for fact.
And the scientists,historians,archeologists and anthropologists
have to compress millions of years of conjectural history into a few paragraphs,digestable and believable to the general public.

ANTHONY 022071–Personally I could care less about what scientists, historians, archeologists and anthropologists have to deal with. They are all fallen, sinners and are very limited by the rational mind which is inferior to the revealed Word of God. Men can have opinions all they want to but it doesn’t change anything in the Word of God. Whenever the word “day” is preceded by a number what follows is to be taken literally. God created the entire universe in 6 24 hour days and could have done it in 6 seconds. Man can question all he wants to (and man, using his fallen, depraved, limited reason) questions God all the time. But God is God and HE cannot lie. Jesus said he was the way the TRUTH and the life. Jesus, Paul and all writers of the NT held the OT scriptures in very high regard. They never, ever in one single instance, referred to the scriptures as myth or cute little stories, but quoted the scriptures with authority. The scriptures are truth as taught by the One, Holy, Catholic Apostolic Church: CCC #107. I always get a kick out of the footnotes in some of these bibles. It makes one wonder if those “higher critics” are even believers, or where their faith is. I don’t think it is in the Word of God, but rather placed in their false god–the god of reason. When we all stand before the judgment seat of God, I will rely on what Jesus did for me on the Cross (2 Cor 5:18-21) I just would not want to be in the place of those that stand before that judgement seat and plead the “scientic method,” or the false god of reason.

Here is a quote that is the teaching of the Church:

Pope Leo XIII stated that “it is absolutely wrong and forbidden either to narrow inspiration to certain parts only of Holy Scripture or to admit that the sacred writer has erred” and condemned “the system of those who, in order to rid themselves of these difficulties, do not hesitate to concede that divine inspiration regards the things of faith and morals, and nothing beyond” ( Providentissimus Deus 20).

 

[patg]

Of course ALL the Word of God, including ALL of Genesis is true.

Yes, it is true - God created everything and mankind suffers when it deviates from God’s rules.

Why do you think that Satan has been attacking the book of Genesis in particular, and the whole bible in general.

Haven’t noticed.

The foundation of Christianity is set forth in the Book of Genesis. There is no proof whatsoever that Genesis was written by J, P etc. That is just so-called “higher criticism,” which I’m sure God is really impressed with.

No, there isn’t proof in any direction which is why the Church does not require belief in the literal historicity of Genesis.

The first 11 chapters of Genesis in particular have been attacked as myth and fairy tales.

I haven’t noticed anyone calling them fairy tales. Yes they are myths by the definition of myth: *an imaginative story that uses symbols to explore a realty beyond our comprehension. *

A myth is about reality. Myth is not a synonym for fiction. In fact, we are not commenting on the truth or falsity of the content of something we call a myth at all, we are talking about the form. A myth represents a serious attempt to come to grips with reality. The myths that are revelation have succeeded in coming to grips with the reality of God’s relationship with human beings in a profound way.

A myth is about reality and it also an imaginative story that must use symbols because the reality the myth explores is one which is beyond the author’s comprehension.

A myth deals with reality but not with a specific event in recorded history.

The author who chose to explore the question of creation does not have the option of giving an historical explanation. He doesn’t know a historical explanation. The author makes it very evident that his genre is not historical by his obvious use of symbols. These stories do not date back to the beginning of time. The author is not contemporary whith the dawn of creation. These are very sophisticated stories. At the dawn of civilization society did not have a highly sophisticated view of marriage as expressed in Genesis 2:24. Neither farming nor the establishment of towns was an early development in prehistoric life, yet the fourth chapter of Genesis reports that Cain, who tilled the soil, married and built a town, all while separated from the family of his birth. These stories reflect a much more highly sophisticated society than would a story about the actual first human beings on the face of the earth. However, when we understand the literary form of the story, questions that presume historicity appear irrelevant. The text will simply not support a claim of historicity.

 

[trth_skr]

…The author who chose to explore the question of creation does not have the option of giving an historical explanation. He doesn’t know a historical explanation.

Maybe God gave him one?

The author makes it very evident that his genre is not historical by his obvious use of symbols.

Like the sun, moon and stars? Man, the animals, plants, water, sky, firmament? These sound like actual things we can experience today.

These stories do not date back to the beginning of time. The author is not contemporary whith the dawn of creation.

No, but the Inspirerer (God) is.

These are very sophisticated stories. At the dawn of civilization society did not have a highly sophisticated view of marriage as expressed in Genesis 2:24. Neither farming nor the establishment of towns was an early development in prehistoric life, yet the fourth chapter of Genesis reports that Cain, who tilled the soil, married and built a town, all while separated from the family of his birth. These stories reflect a much more highly sophisticated society than would a story about the actual first human beings on the face of the earth. However, when we understand the literary form of the story, questions that presume historicity appear irrelevant. The text will simply not support a claim of historicity.

You are presuming that man had to develop out of ingnorance into rationality. How do you know what God taught man, and even passed on to Cain? Cain offered fruits of the fields to God, so there must have been some farming before he was cast out.

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com

 

[trth_skr]

…the Church does not require belief in the literal historicity of Genesis…

Nor do they require you to pray the rosary. What’s the point?

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com

 

[zackonattack]

PATG:

Quote:
Why do you think that Satan has been attacking the book of Genesis in particular, and the whole bible in general.

Haven’t noticed.

Quote:
The foundation of Christianity is set forth in the Book of Genesis. There is no proof whatsoever that Genesis was written by J, P etc. That is just so-called “higher criticism,” which I’m sure God is really impressed with.

You haven’t noticed people attacking the bible, the book of Genesis and the first 11 chapters? The attack is unrelenting, vicious, and of couse idiotic. As for calling the bible a bunch of fairy tales all you have to do is listen to the History Channel for a while, and their lost experts, the Jesus Seminar “scholars”.

Personally, you can believe what you want about the bible because that doesn’t change a thing. The Revealed word of God to man is truth, not truth mixed with myth. You can define myth anyway you want. Revelation is far superior to man’s false god of reason, and far superior to any of the scientists or “higher critics.”

The church has always taugh the truth of scripture and ALL of the church Fathers believed in a literal interpretation of Genesis. I’m not sure why anyone of faith would believe otherwise. In a different post I quoted from Pope Leo, but all of the documents I have found show the Church has been consistent through the ages that Adam and Eve were real people, that Adam’s sin is what brought death into the world, that God had a plan of salvation from Genesis 3:15 on (actually eternally) and than plan goes throughout the entire bible.
It never ceases to amaze me that some of the strongest views I encounter about the bible being full of myths and errors come from believers. And the atheists love it. I can’t count the times I’ve had nonbelievers at work say “why should I believe in the bible when your own theologians don’t believe the bible.” They have a good point. Now, I’ve stated my views that I believe the bible is absolutely inerrant and to be believe above all else. To me, there is nothing to debate. The bible is God’s revelation to man and that’s that. So for me, end of discussion on that.