Genetic Adam and Eve

[Hans_W]

Stop the presses. God’s creative endeavors ended on the sixth day, when he entered his rest from creating

Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God finished his work which he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had done. So God blessed the seventh day and hallowed it, because on it God rested from all his work which he had done in creation.

The Holy Bible. (2006). (Revised Standard Version; Second Catholic Edition., Ge 2:1–3). San Francisco: Ignatius Press.

Amen. You just need to convince Grannymh and her Dr Dennis Bonnette that it was all done in six days.

 

[grannymh]

Amen. You just need to convince Grannymh and her Dr Dennis Bonnette that it was all done in six days.

Readers can skip convincing granny that it was all done in six days because granny already understands the difference between scientific explorations in the material/physical world and the Catholic Deposit of faith.

As for the author Dr. Dennis Bonnette, his positions are found in recent publications which are listed in post 32, page 3.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12679543&postcount=32

 

[Hans_W]

Readers can skip convincing granny that it was all done in six days because granny already understands the difference between scientific explorations in the material/physical world and the Catholic Deposit of faith.

As for the author Dr. Dennis Bonnette, his positions are found in recent publications which are listed in post 32, page 3.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12679543&postcount=32

We all know that granny is inconvincible and that she has all “the differences between scientific explorations in the material/physical world and the Catholic Deposit of faith” at her fingertips.

She leans on her retired philosophy professor Dr Dennis Bonnette, who’s understanding of biology puts to shame whatever these newfangled scientists can come up with.

Bonnette’s “Philosophical Impossibility of Darwinian Evolution” destroys all of modern biology with one fell swoop. According to him Theistic Evolution contradicts Catholic doctrine. Obviously this exciting news hasn’t reached Pope Francis yet.

We also know that granny, as always, will have the last word.

 

[grannymh]

:flowers:npatrol:
…

 

[grannymh]

We all know that granny is inconvincible and that she has all “the differences between scientific explorations in the material/physical world and the Catholic Deposit of Faith at her fingertips.

Correct.

Granny is inconvincible when incomplete evidence (either methods or materials) does not warrant an extrapolation to an universal negative.

And yes, granny has the differences between scientific explorations in the material/physical world and the Catholic Deposit of faith” at her fingertips. It is called common sense regarding the existence of two worlds or two realms of information. For general information, there is both the material world and the spiritual world.

 

[thistle]

****I have to admit I have not read most of the posts in this thread so I don’t know if what I have posted below (which I posted in another thread) is relevant to this thread or not.

Genesis 2 : 7. "the Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground, & breathed the breath of life into his nostrils.

I think you will find that the Church does not teach there were no humans before Adam and Eve. It teaches that we are all descended from Adam. These two are not necessarily contradictory.
Remember too that we should not read Genesis in a literalist way. Genesis is about the relationship between God and mankind.

Here is an extract from Cardinal Ratzinger’s Third Homily (para 49) on Genesis - Creation and Evolution:

All of this is well and good, one might say, but is it not
ultimately disproved by our scientific knowledge of how the
human being evolved from the animal kingdom? Now, more
reflective spirits have long been aware that there is no either-or
here. We cannot say: creation or evolution, inasmuch as these
two things respond to two different realities.** The story of the
dust of the earth and the breath of God, which we just heard,
does not in fact explain how human persons come to be but
rather what they are.** It explains their inmost origin and casts
light on the project that they are. And, vice versa, the theory of
evolution seeks to understand and describe biological develop-
ments. But in so doing it cannot explain where the “project” of
human persons comes from, nor their inner origin, nor their
particular nature. To that extent we are faced here with two
complementary — rather than mutually exclusive — realities.

 

[grannymh]

I have to admit I have not read most of the posts in this thread so I don’t know if what I have posted below (which I posted in another thread) is relevant to this thread or not.

Genesis 2 : 7. "the Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground, & breathed the breath of life into his nostrils.

I think you will find that the Church does not teach there were no humans before Adam and Eve. It teaches that we are all descended from Adam. These two are not necessarily contradictory.
Remember too that we should not read Genesis in a literalist way. Genesis is about the relationship between God and mankind.

Here is an extract from Cardinal Ratzinger’s Third Homily (para 49) on Genesis - Creation and Evolution:

All of this is well and good, one might say, but is it not
ultimately disproved by our scientific knowledge of how the
human being evolved from the animal kingdom? Now, more
reflective spirits have long been aware that there is no either-or
here. We cannot say: creation or evolution, inasmuch as these
two things respond to two different realities.** The story of the **
**dust of the earth and the breath of God, which we just heard, **
**does not in fact explain how human persons come to be but **
rather what they are. It explains their inmost origin and casts
light on the project that they are. And, vice versa, the theory of
evolution seeks to understand and describe biological develop-
ments. But in so doing it cannot explain where the “project” of
human persons comes from, nor their inner origin, nor their
particular nature. To that extent we are faced here with two
complementary — rather than mutually exclusive — realities.

Thank you for the above.

In reality, when we refer to Genesis as not being read in a “literalist way”, we are actually talking about 50 chapters! It should be obvious that not every word in every verse of 50 chapters automatically becomes a Catholic doctrine duly defined by a major Ecumenical Church Council. Questions?

It should be obvious that the only verse in the second chapter of Genesis referred to by Cardinal Ratzinger in post 65 is Genesis 2:7. Has Genesis 2:7 been officially declared Divine Revelation by the Catholic Church and therefore, it is in the Catholic Deposit of Faith? Of course not, because as Cardinal Ratzinger clearly points out “the theory of evolution seeks to understand and describe biological developments.”

Biological developments, now known as the Science of Human Evolution, cannot explain where the “project” of human persons comes from, nor their inner origin, nor their particular nature. To that extent we are faced here with two complementary — rather than mutually exclusive — realities.

Please note that it is correct to call the two realities “complementary”. For example, God’s gift of natural science benefits humankind especially in the medical arena. This is not a blanket approval of the Science of Human Evolution which currently contains opposition to some fundamental Catholic doctrines.

When one reads ‘In the Beginning…’ A Catholic Understanding of the Story of Creation and the Fall (my copy credits Pope Benedict XVI), I suggest that all of the “Third Homily” be read.

The Catholic Church maintains that the Original Sin was committed by the first Original fully-complete (body & soul, dust & breath) human person. Since Original means original, that is first, it should be obvious that there would not be an originating population of original humans. The human species began from an Original (first)population of two.

 

[clem456]

Amen. You just need to convince Grannymh and her Dr Dennis Bonnette that it was all done in six days.

Are proposing that God created the Grand Canyon fully formed, as it exists in it’s present state, 6 days ago? Like on January 29th 2015?

 

[Hans_W]

Are proposing that God created the Grand Canyon fully formed, as it exists in it’s present state, 6 days ago? Like on January 29th 2015?

Could have been 5 minutes ago, with all our memories thrown in.

 

[thistle]

Could have been 5 minutes ago, with all our memories thrown in.

I don’t think anyone here is suggesting the 6 days in Genesis means 6 literal 24 hour periods and the Church does not require us to believe that.

 

[clem456]

If you want to see how world class Catholics read Genesis try Theology of the Body.
JP2 exposes the profound truth in Genesis and never once does the subject of science come up.
(of course if you do want to know about genetics or geological time, buy some science textbooks.)

 

[Ignatius]

Is it acceptable for a Catholic to believe in a genetic Adam and Eve, which were not our first parents, but common human ancestors to all mankind. Since we would have inherited Original Sin from our first common parents, it would be in compliance to the Catholic faith, correct? Even if they did not mate with one another?

nature.com/news/genetic-adam-and-eve-did-not-live-too-far-apart-in-time-1.13478
pbs.org/wgbh/nova/next/evolution/our-genetic-adam-and-eve/

Yes, I think that could fit within within the framework of orthodox Catholic teaching. Just to be sure, I would ask the question in the “Ask an Apologist” forum though.

 

[grannymh]

Yes, I think that could fit within within the framework of orthodox Catholic teaching. Just to be sure, I would ask the question in the “Ask an Apologist” forum though.

The problem is that the current Science of Human Evolution will not budge from its position that the originating population of the human species is in the thousands. Correct Catholic teaching is that the human species is from an originating population of two. No matter what kind of being is called human by science, the Catholic Church insists that the population of two are true fully-complete (spiritual soul/decomposing anatomy) human beings with our human nature.

In Humani Generis, Pius XII refers to polygenism as being unacceptable. Today, the populations which appear on the Science of Human Evolution Cladograms are basically polygenism.

 

[Afterman]

One of the more elegant ways I’ve heard explaining the apparent conflict between what science has shown to be more likely (polygenism), and what what the Church teaches (that there were a literal Adam and Eve), goes something like this:

There is a distinction between someone who is genetically human, and one who is spiritually human. A “genetic human” would be one of the long-ago ancestors that Homo sapiens evolved from, but were without the same sort of soul that humans have - rather, they had animal souls. A “spiritual human” are Homo sapiens with human souls.

They would still have bred with the other Homo sapiens (which would technically have been bestiality, and therefore may have been the first sin), so all they would still be the parents of all humanity.

So basically, all this argument does is make a distinction between “genetic polygenism” and “spiritual polygenism”, allowing for humans to have still come from a group of common genetic ancestors, but from only two spiritual ancestors, which we call Adam and Eve.

Isn’t this take a bit dangerous to assume, considering that these so-called soulless homo sapiens with which Adam and Eve bred were just as rational and fully functioning, conscious and with human emotion? Why would God deny a whole society of humans eternal souls, saving this gift only for two? I’m sorry, but I don’t get it.

 

[clem456]

The problem is that the current Science of Human Evolution will not budge from its position that the originating population of the human species is in the thousands. Correct Catholic teaching is that the human species is from an originating population of two.

The Catholic Church does NOT propose or endorse a scientific explanation for the material origin of humanity. The Church allows science it’s area of competence.
Here is one discussion of the issue.
ewtn.com/library/Theology/SINEVOL.HTM

Conclusion

In the attempt to rethink the Theology of original sin in the light of the scientific theory of evolution and polygenism, scholars have sought to determine the literary genre of the first chapters of Genesis, and in particular Gen. 1-3. And usually, following closely the documents of the Magisterium, they affirm that it is a theological aetiology, that is, a particular vision of history, a picturesque story which is largely symbolic, of an event which really happened (original sin). Consequently, they think that the bible is not concerned with the scientific question of evolution or polygenism and these are, therefore, not denied by Revelation.

Working on these premises, various hypotheses have been proposed to reconcile Revelation with science within the framework of a more modern theology of original sin. They are still only hypotheses, plausible to a greater or lesser extent, while the scientific theories are by no means certain and are in need of further completion and proof. The Magisterium of the Church in her latest documents has given clarifications of a specifically theological nature, while allowing those who are properly qualified to continue their studies.

A sincere fidelity to the Magisterium of the Church, which has received from Christ the charge of guarding and interpreting the deposit of Revelation, is essential in this investigation. Furthermore, this enters into the very scientific method of a sound theology and exegesis. Within this context, research workers can proceed assured of a true deepening of Revelation and a healthy aggiornamento, even in this very difficult problem.

However, it must be remembered that Revelation and dogma, concerning the origin of man and original sin, remains unchanged as regards its completeness. The task of the above mentioned scholars is simply to rethink the theology of this revealed doctrine in order that they may present it in a manner more adapted to the scientific and philosophical mentality of modern man. Thus they will make it more acceptable and really useful both for life and salvation.

Granny
No matter what kind of being is called human by science, the Catholic Church insists that the population of two are true fully-complete (spiritual soul/decomposing anatomy) human beings with our human nature.

In Humani Generis, Pius XII refers to polygenism as being unacceptable. Today, the populations which appear on the Science of Human Evolution Cladograms are basically polygenism

.
Here is the actual passage concerning polygenism, in context, from Humani Generis.
w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis.html

1. For these reasons the Teaching Authority of the **Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter - for the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God. **
   …
2. When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth **true men **who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose **with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam **and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.

This is not disputing the science of evolution despite what fundamentalists assert. It is disputing the notion that true men (unity of body and soul, not just a body) could have descended from a general population without originating in Adam. In other words, it is disputing the notion that the human soul also evolved willy-nilly and diluting the doctrine of original sin. This whole thing is in the theological context of original sin.

The Catholic Church is concerned with theology, not science. When science over-reaches to propose theology, then the Church addresses it. This is why Humani Generis was proposed, to flesh out the relationship between science and theology.

 

[clem456]

Saint John Paul 2 addresses Humani Generis here:
ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp961022.htm

1. I am delighted with the first theme which you have chosen: the origin of life and evolution—an essential theme of lively interest to the Church, since Revelation contains some of its own teachings concerning the nature and origins of man. How should the conclusions reached by the diverse scientific disciplines be brought together with those contained in the message of Revelation? And if at first glance these views seem to clash with each other, where should we look for a solution? We know that the truth cannot contradict the truth. (Leo XIII, Providentissimus Deus)
   …
2. Before offering a few more specific reflections on the theme of the origin of life and evolution, I would remind you that the magisterium of the Church has already made some pronouncements on these matters, within her own proper sphere of competence. I will cite two such interventions here.

In his encyclical Humani Generis (1950), my predecessor Pius XII has already affirmed that there is no conflict between evolution and the doctrine of the faith regarding man and his vocation, provided that we do not lose sight of certain fixed points.
…
But even beyond that, man is called to enter into a loving relationship with God himself, a relationship which will find its full expression at the end of time, in eternity. Within the mystery of the risen Christ the full grandeur of this vocation is revealed to us. (Gaudium et Spes, 22) **It is by virtue of his eternal soul that the whole person, including his body, possesses such great dignity. Pius XII underlined the essential point: if the origin of the human body comes through living matter which existed previously, the spiritual soul is created directly by God **(“animas enim a Deo immediate creari catholica fides non retimere iubet”). (Humani Generis)

As a result, the theories of evolution which, because of the philosophies which inspire them, **regard
the spirit **either as emerging from the forces of living matter, or as a simple epiphenomenon of that matter, are incompatible with the truth about man. They are therefore unable to serve as the basis for the dignity of the human person.

There is a lot more relevant material here that room does not allow.
Please, everyone read what the Church actually teaches.

 

[grannymh]

The Catholic Church does NOT propose or endorse a scientific explanation for the material origin of humanity. The Church allows science it’s area of competence.

While it is true that the Catholic Church allows science its area of competence, the Catholic Church continues to oppose the science challenges to Catholic doctrines.

In 1995, Francisco J. Ayala’s scientific bombshell updated the meaning of polygenism to a rather large originating human population. The Catholic Church firmly teaches that the originating population of the human species is a population of two. The Catholic Church continues to oppose the current scientific cladograms (diagrams) which illustrate the progress of humanizing populations since the Homo/Pan common ancestor.

In the same manner as Pius XII opposed scientific polygenism, the Catholic Church opposes the large human species originating population which is an integral part of the science of human evolution.

 

[clem456]

While it is true that the Catholic Church allows science its area of competence, the Catholic Church continues to oppose the science challenges to Catholic doctrines.

In 1995, Francisco J. Ayala’s scientific bombshell updated the meaning of polygenism to a rather large originating human population. The Catholic Church firmly teaches that the originating population of the human species is a population of two. The Catholic Church continues to oppose the current scientific cladograms (diagrams) which illustrate the progress of humanizing populations since the Homo/Pan common ancestor.

In the same manner as Pius XII opposed scientific polygenism, the Catholic Church opposes the large human species originating population which is an integral part of the science of human evolution.

Can you please post the specific links -from the Catholic Church itself- that specifically discuss “Francisco J. Ayala” and/or the term “cladistics”?

You say

The Catholic Church continues to oppose the current scientific cladograms etc…

It would greatly clarify the discussion if you could post specific links.

 

[Hans_W]

The Catholic Church does NOT propose or endorse a scientific explanation for the material origin of humanity. The Church allows science it’s area of competence.
Here is one discussion of the issue.
ewtn.com/library/Theology/SINEVOL.HTM

Thank you for the links. Here they are in chronological order:

w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis.html (Pius XII, 1950)
ewtn.com/library/Theology/SINEVOL.HTM (Paul VI, 1969)
ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp961022.htm (John Paul II, 1996)

Rivers of inks must have been spent on how to interpret the Bible in light of actual history. No doubt, Pope Francis will have his say in due course.

 

[grannymh]

Can you please post the specific links -from the Catholic Church itself- that specifically discuss “Francisco J. Ayala” and/or the term “cladistics”?

There are none in the Catholic Deposit of Faith.

However, a bit of common sense and a wide knowledge of Catholic doctrines will demonstrate why large humanizing populations are not the same as a single population of two fully-complete human progenitors of humankind. As for “Cladistics” and Francisco J. Ayala, Google has a variety of information sources.