Genetics and Neanderthals

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I follow the commonly accepted definition(s) of Homo sapiens, which point to fossils dating back to around 500,000 as among the first Homo sapiens.

Homo sapiens sapiens would appear around 200,000 BCE.
Pardon me. You have provided the “where” Homo sapiens point to and the approximate date. And you have given an approximate date for Homo* sapiens sapiens. *This is interesting information answering the question “when?” However, that is not the question I asked.

Now I would like to have your definition of Homo sapiens and Home sapiens sapiens – which is your belief as to what they are.

Thank you for you time.
 
Pardon me. You have provided the “where” Homo sapiens point to and the approximate date. And you have given an approximate date for Homo* sapiens sapiens. *This is interesting information answering the question “when?” However, that is not the question I asked.

Now I would like to have your definition of Homo sapiens and Home sapiens sapiens – which is your belief as to what they are.

Thank you for you time.
I’m simply using whatever current scientific definiton of those organisms are, and comparing them with the “true men” mentioned in HG. The precise definition of Homo sp. (any particular species of the genus Homo) is irrelevant; what’s important is that there are commonly accepted scientific definitions of Homo sp., definitions that need not correspond exactly to the theological definition of “true men” – because the theological definition of “true men” is not limited to the empirical definition used by scientists in defining Homo sp.

I could mentioned that Homo sp. has characteristic x; but that tells me little, if anything, about whether all specimens of Homo sp. are “true men” in the Catholic sense – unless, of course, you’re suggesting that when scientists define who is Homo sapiens sapiens, that they are also defining who is a “true man”.

If scientists have that ability to determine who fits into the theological category of “true man”, then that would be something remarkable.😃
 
Those two are not the only choices.

“Mere chance” would make the universe itself impossible, or very, very unlikely. .The universe operates via great regularity; organism evolve with great regularity as well. However, there is a degree of “unknowability” in mutations and in events in general. “Mere [only] chance” really does not exist.

Some viruses have DNA as their genetic material; other viruses have RNA instead of DNA.
Is RNA as complex as DNA?
 
Is RNA as complex as DNA?
RNA and DNA are very similar in terms of chemical composition, with just a few minor differences. E.g., both RNA and DNA have four nuclebases, with three of the nucleobases being the same. One major difference is that RNA is mostly single stranded, whereas DNA occurs in the form of two DNA strands bonded together in a double helix. So you could say that DNA is more complex, because it has a double helix structure.

http://attunedharmonics.com/img/RNA_DNA.png

RNA in viruses, though, can be in double-stranded, double helix form, just like the DNA in cells, so the idea that DNA is more “complex” isn’t satisfying.
 
Premise number 3 is the beginning of the Nicene Creed said during the Catholic Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
If a person accepts the premise that creation comes from Intelligence and Will then

The Nicene Creed is the next step in understanding “Intelligence and Will.”
This believing that God the Father is 'intelligence" and had the “will” to create the universe brings us to the next step - believing that God the Father loves His creation and loves His frail children - human beings.

Another definition of that “Intelligence and Will” would be an impersonal creator. This would be like the clock maker concept or a “pure reason” concept that you would see in such characters as “Spock” in “Star Trek”
 
Thank you Ahisma. This stuff is beyond my comprehension but it truely is fascinating.
 
I wish that I could stay here and visit but I have to get ready to go to work. This has been one of the most interesting of threads.Thank you.
 
I’m simply using whatever current scientific definiton of those organisms are, and comparing them with the “true men” mentioned in HG. The precise definition of Homo sp. (any particular species of the genus Homo) is irrelevant; what’s important is that there are commonly accepted scientific definition of Homo sp., which need not correspond exactly to the theological definition of “true men” – because the theological definition of “true men” is not limited to the empirical definition used by scientists in defining Homo sp.

I could mentioned that Homo sp. has characteristic x; but that tells me little, if anything, about whether all specimens of Homo sp. are “true men” in the Catholic sense – unless, of course, you’re suggesting that when scientists define who is Homo sapiens sapiens, that they are also defining who is a “true man”.

If scientists have that ability to determine who fits into the theological category of “true man”, then that would be something remarkable.😃
I am speaking from a scientific position. I assure you, in the scientific field definitions are not irrelevant.

In addition, those who have read #35, #36, and #37 in Humani Generis, know that the issue is not exactly a comparison between Homo sapiens and “true men”. By the way, what is your definition of “true men” or “true man”?

The key scientific issue in Humani Generis is the direct, immediate source of the current human person’s anatomy. Do I detect a misunderstanding of Humani Generis?
 
By the way, what is your definition of “true men” or “true man”?
Would not the “true Man” be described in Genesis 2:7: “Then the LORD God formed a man****c] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.”

CCC 364: “The human body shares in the dignity of “the image of God”: it is a human body precisely because it is animated by a spiritual soul…”

Genesis doesn’t mention any precise, scientific characteristics that are possessed by “true Men”, anatomical or otherwise. What makes an organism a “true Man” is the animation of a physical body by a spiritual soul. That physical body could conceivably be scientifically classified as Homo sapiens sapiens, Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, Homo sapiens antecessor, etc. The physical body could even be that of an extra-terrestrial organism who, nonetheless, is animated by a spiritual soul.
 
If a person accepts the premise that creation comes from Intelligence and Will then

The Nicene Creed is the next step in understanding “Intelligence and Will.”
This believing that God the Father is 'intelligence" and had the “will” to create the universe brings us to the next step - believing that God the Father loves His creation and loves His frail children - human beings.

Another definition of that “Intelligence and Will” would be an impersonal creator. This would be like the clock maker concept or a “pure reason” concept that you would see in such characters as “Spock” in “Star Trek”
Believing that a personal God is the Creator is the first step. This may sound nit-picky but there are some advocates of intelligence who do not accept the Divine Revelation of the existence of two real persons as founders of humanity and therefore original sin did not occur. (eventually Jesus becomes a prophet and not the Savior of all people)

While I do accept the idea that some kind of outside-of-nature intelligence may lead someone to further explore the concept of a real God, I really doubt it effectiveness on the large scale.
 
Would not the “true Man” be described in Genesis 2:7: “Then the LORD God formed a man****c] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.”

CCC 364: “The human body shares in the dignity of “the image of God”: it is a human body precisely because it is animated by a spiritual soul…”

Genesis doesn’t mention any precise, scientific characteristics that are possessed by “true Men”, anatomical or otherwise. What makes an organism a “true Man” is the animation of a physical body by a spiritual soul. That physical body could conceivably be scientifically classified as Homo sapiens sapiens, Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, Homo sapiens antecessor, etc. The physical body could even be that of an extra-terrestrial organism who, nonetheless, is animated by a spiritual soul.
Mine quoting does not work with the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition.
 
Thank you for pulling me back from the precipice of sola catechisa.😃
On the other hand, it is important that readers understand that a part of a sentence from a single paragraph in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition may be interesting and appropriate in its singular expression. Nonetheless, if one is actually interested in Catholic teaching on the human person, then one has to look at the whole context of paragraphs 355 - 421 and not just a nugget.
 
Believing that a personal God is the Creator is the first step. This may sound nit-picky but there are some advocates of intelligence who do not accept the Divine Revelation of the existence of two real persons as founders of humanity and therefore original sin did not occur. (eventually Jesus becomes a prophet and not the Savior of all people)

While I do accept the idea that some kind of outside-of-nature intelligence may lead someone to further explore the concept of a real God, I really doubt it effectiveness on the large scale.
Before one can believe in a personal God as the Creator, one has to first believe that a creator exists.

From that position we can then accept that the Creator is God the Father, as revealed to us by Divine Revelation.

Or:

We can reject that the creator is God the Father and imagine that this creator to be anything from a cold logical mind to a myraid of gods and goddesses.
 
Your claim is design does not exist or that it cannot be detected?
My claim is that idea of intelligent design is not amenable to the scientific process to prove or to disprove. It is sometimes mistakenly thought of as scientific in some circles.
 
My claim is that idea of intelligent design is not amenable to the scientific process to prove or to disprove. It is sometimes mistakenly thought of as scientific in some circles.
Is intelligent design a scientific theory?
Yes. The scientific method is commonly described as a four-step process involving observations, hypothesis, experiments, and conclusion. Intelligent design begins with the observation that intelligent agents produce complex and specified information (CSI). Design theorists hypothesize that if a natural object was designed, it will contain high levels of CSI. Scientists then perform experimental tests upon natural objects to determine if they contain complex and specified information. One easily testable form of CSI is irreducible complexity, which can be discovered by experimentally reverse-engineering biological structures to see if they require all of their parts to function. When ID researchers find irreducible complexity in biology, they conclude that such structures were designed.
 
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