Genocide in the Old Testament

[cornbread_r2]

A couple of problems I have with Akin’s explanation:

He assumes that unbaptized babies always go to Heaven. IIRC, the church has never definitively ruled on that.

If we assume, as he does, that the finite Earthly suffering of innocent children is outweighed by the infinite joy they will experience in Heaven , then what would stop anyone from killing innocent children for the same reasons? I understand that God might still fault the murderer and condemn them, but if the innocent child ultimately benefits in any case, then some people might be willing to take that chance.

 

[_Abyssinia]

I think the so-called OT minimalists have provided the best way out of this dilemma: based on the extant archeological evidence it’s entirely possible that these wholesale slaughters never even occurred.

Regarding archeological evidence, there was a time when some people were skeptical for various Biblical locations and people, and then evidence is found such as for the Hittites, King David, Edomites for example.

There may be evidence for Canaan conquest

apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=13&article=593

 

[bzkoss236]

Couple of things

1. God is the creator. Only he has the right to give and take life freely. We might see this as unjust, but for God, death is not the end of us. God may have taken the innocents to the bosom of abraham to await Christ and sent the evil to pit of the damned.
2. If the children and women were not also killed, they would have sought revenge for their husbands and fathers which would have made it difficult, if not impossible, for the Israelites to do what God commanded and to go where God wanted them to go.

 

[Obsculta]

For what were the unborn children judged? What had they done that deserved judgement?

For what were the infants judged? What had they done that deserved judgement?

rossum

As a Catholic, the passage “Does a clay pot argue with its maker?” comes to mind.

 

[Back2Church]

A couple of problems I have with Akin’s explanation:

He assumes that unbaptized babies always go to Heaven. IIRC, the church has never definitively ruled on that.

Considering absolutely no one was baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit back then in old testament times, then wouldn’t this be a problem for all of humanity, not just babies?

I’m still learning the faith, so I could be way off here, but doesn’t the church teach that all those who died before Christ were still covered by his salvation (provided they were fit to receive His mercy? Or something along those lines?

Because your objection of saying babies in the O.T. can’t be saved because they weren’t baptized means absolutely on one from the O.T. Was saved since there was no baptism yet. If that was the case, then it didn’t matter who killed who at what age, because they were all going to hell anyways.

So yeah, I object to your objection, heh.

 

[cornbread_r2]

Regarding archeological evidence, there was a time when some people were skeptical for various Biblical locations and people, and then evidence is found such as for the Hittites, King David, Edomites for example.

None of which is evidence for the conquest as it is described in the OT.

There may be evidence for Canaan conquest

apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=13&article=593

When a source presumes that the bible is the inerrant, inspired word of God and uses that as a premise for its argument, I think it loses considerable scientific credibility.

---

The most convincing argument I’ve heard against the conquest as described: We’ve found no evidence in the highlands of the sudden appearance of 2-3 million people who had presumably just spent more than 400 years in Egypt; no Egyptian pottery, inscriptions, artifacts, etc… Is it possible that Egyptian culture made no mark on the Hebrews during that 400 years period or that the Hebrews jettisoned *all of it *on the way to the highlands if it did? IMO, that’s highly unlikely.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Thank you so much. Out of all the posts on this thread, I must say that this one was the most helpful because that article was extremely helpful. The doubt that I have been having concerning these Old Testament passages is now resolved. Thank you for posting this.

I also want to thank everyone else for posting. It was interesting to see the various viewpoints.

That article was equally useful for me. I am glad it helped you.

 

[cornbread_r2]

Considering absolutely no one was baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit back then in old testament times, then wouldn’t this be a problem for all of humanity, not just babies?

I’m still learning the faith, so I could be way off here, but doesn’t the church teach that all those who died before Christ were still covered by his salvation (provided they were fit to receive His mercy? Or something along those lines?

Because your objection of saying babies in the O.T. can’t be saved because they weren’t baptized means absolutely on one from the O.T. Was saved since there was no baptism yet. If that was the case, then it didn’t matter who killed who at what age, because they were all going to hell anyways.

So yeah, I object to your objection, heh.

So remove the word “unbaptized” and insert the word “innocent”. The point stands. AFAIK, the church has never definitively ruled on what happens to their souls.

 

[clem456]

Couple of things

1. God is the creator. Only he has the right to give and take life freely. We might see this as unjust, but for God, death is not the end of us. God may have taken the innocents to the bosom of abraham to await Christ and sent the evil to pit of the damned.

No Catholic can deny this.
But that is not the heart of the question, which is, did God actually will and command the Israelites to commit these actions. The Catholic interpretation of scripture most definitely does not require this step of literalist belief.

1. If the children and women were not also killed, they would have sought revenge for their husbands and fathers which would have made it difficult, if not impossible, for the Israelites to do what God commanded and to go where God wanted them to go.

You gotta watch our for those children with swords!
Taken in the context of the whole of the Scriptures, which is how the Church interprets them, this is a difficult scenario to swallow, given the whole of revelation that we have.

 

[bzkoss236]

No Catholic can deny this.
But that is not the heart of the question, which is, did God actually will and command the Israelites to commit these actions. The Catholic interpretation of scripture most definitely does not require this step of literalist belief.

You gotta watch our for those children with swords!
Taken in the context of the whole of the Scriptures, which is how the Church interprets them, this is a difficult scenario to swallow, given the whole of revelation that we have.

Does children fighting in war sound ridiculous to you? Maybe you should check some of those photos from the war in the middle east. And even if a child is too young to carry a weapon, he won’t always. It isn’t as hard to swallow as you think it is.

 

[clem456]

Regarding archeological evidence, there was a time when some people were skeptical for various Biblical locations and people, and then evidence is found such as for the Hittites, King David, Edomites for example.

There may be evidence for Canaan conquest

apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=13&article=593

Evidence or not, contradictions or not (the bible is chock full of them), actual factual or not…
God wanted to communicate something through the author. The truth God wanted to communicate goes beyond the integrity of the literal facts. The inerrancy and inspiration lie in God himself, not -merely- in the historical details, or in the author.

 

[clem456]

Does children fighting in war sound ridiculous to you? Maybe you should check some of those photos from the war in the middle east. And even if a child is too young to carry a weapon, he won’t always. It isn’t as hard to swallow as you think it is.

Yea, it does happen a lot. Maybe their parents and leaders have convinced them it’s God’s will.

 

[_Abyssinia]

None of which is evidence for the conquest as it is described in the OT.

When a source presumes that the bible is the inerrant, inspired word of God and uses that as a premise for its argument, I think it loses considerable scientific credibility.

---

The most convincing argument I’ve heard against the conquest as described: We’ve found no evidence in the highlands of the sudden appearance of 2-3 million people who had presumably just spent more than 400 years in Egypt; no Egyptian pottery, inscriptions, artifacts, etc… Is it possible that Egyptian culture made no mark on the Hebrews during that 400 years period or that the Hebrews jettisoned *all of it *on the way to the highlands if it did? IMO, that’s highly unlikely.

You have not addressed the extra Biblical evidence in the article.

Evidence for post Exodus Israelite sites have been discovered

haaretz.com/news/have-the-first-israelite-sites-built-after-exodus-been-found-1.273654

Sinatic inscriptions in Wadee El-Mukattab, Sinai record some of the events of the Exodus from a non Hebrew source

bibleprobe.com/exodus.htm

Leiden Papyrus 348, an Egyptian document, says, 'distribute grain rations to the soldiers and to the ‘Apiru who transport stones to the great pylon of Rameses.’ Scholars have mixed views on whether ‘Apriu’ can refer to Hebrews, some thing it can, some think it can not. Exodus 1:11 says Hebrews, ‘built supply cities, Pithom and Rameses, for Pharaoh’ so the Leiden Papyrus 348 would fit with Exodus 1:11

18th dynasty painted inscriptions in Egyptian tombs show slaves making bricks etc. Professor Hoffmeier says in an article, ‘It is worth noting, that the practice of using forced labor for building projects is only documented for the period 1450 to 1200, the very time most biblical historians place the Israelites in Egypt’

[

• In a surviving Egyptian document called Leiden Papyrus 348, orders are given to “distribute grain rations to the soldiers and to the 'Apiru who transport stones to the great pylon of Rameses.” This brings to mind Exodus 1:11, which says the Hebrews “built supply cities, Pithom and Rameses, for Pharaoh.” While hotly debated, 'Apiru is believed by some scholars to refer to the Hebrews, the 'Ibri. If a future discovery of an inscription could link this word to the Hebrews, this document would prove to be our first direct extrabiblical reference to the children of Israel in slavery in Egypt.
  [*]Recent discoveries of military outposts on a road leading from Egypt into Canaan, built by Pharaoh Seti I and earlier kings in the thirteenth century B.C., shed new light on why a northern route for the Exodus would have meant war for the Israelites. Exodus 13:17 states: "When Pharaoh let the people go, God did not lead them by way of the land of the Philistines, although that was nearer; for God thought, ‘If the people face war, they may change their minds and return to Egypt.’ " Instead, the Bible explains, “God led the people by the roundabout way of the wilderness.”
  [*]While it is virtually impossible 3,000 years later to retrace the footsteps of a people who escaped over a sand-swept wilderness, an Egyptian letter (Anastasi III) from guards at a “border crossing” between Egypt and the Sinai helps explain Moses’ insistent cry, “Let my people go!” The text indicates that in the thirteenth century the Egyptians maintained a tight border control, allowing no one to pass without a permit. The letter describes two slaves who—in a striking parallel to the Israelite escape—flee from the city of Rameses at night, are pursued by soldiers, but disappear into the Sinai wilderness. “When my letter reaches you,” writes the official to the border guard, “write to me about all that has happened to [them]. Who found their tracks? Which watch found their tracks? Write to me about all that has happened to them and how many people you send out after them.” Another inscription from the same cache of documents (Anastasi VI) records that an entire tribe gained permission to enter Egypt from Edom in search of food.
  [*]If it seems incredible to believe that 600,000 men plus women and children could have survived as a people in the Sinai wilderness for 40 years, we may be misinterpreting the number, says Hoffmeier. Hebrew University professor Abraham Malamat, for one, points out that the Bible often refers to 600 and its multiples, as well as 1,000 and its multiples, typologically in order to convey the idea of a large military unit. “The issue of Exodus 12:37 is an interpretive one,” says Hoffmeier. “The Hebrew word eleph can be translated ‘thousand,’ but it is also rendered in the Bible as ‘clans’ and ‘military units.’ When I look at the question as an Egyptologist, I know that there are thought to have been 20,000 in the entire Egyptian army at the height of Egypt’s empire. And at the battle of Ai in Joshua 7, there was a severe military setback when 36 troops were killed. If you have an army of 600,000, that’s not a big setback.” In other words, the head count may have been far fewer than suggested by a literal reading of Exodus 12:37.
  [*]While conservative scholars debate an “early” and “late” date for the Exodus (fifteenth century or thirteenth century B.C.), all but the most skeptical scholars agree that the Israelites were in Canaan by the year 1208 B.C. This date was set a century ago with the discovery of the Merneptah Stele. This seven-foot high, black granite stone contains a victory hymn of Pharaoh Merneptah, which proclaims, “The Canaan is plundered with every hardship. / Ashkelon is taken, Gezer is captured, / [and] Yano’am reduced to nothing. / Israel is laid waste, his seed is no more.”
  

ctlibrary.com/ct/1998/september7/8ta044.html](Did the Exodus Never Happen? | Christianity Today)

 

[_Abyssinia]

Archeologist’s have discovered stables to breed and keep at least 460 horses, in the city of Piramesse

weekly.ahram.org.eg/1999/461/fr2.htm

Bones of horses, human beings and chariots have been found in the sea at Nuiweba

arkdiscovery.com/red_sea_crossing.htm

Exodus 14:5-7 describes Pharaoh sending chariots to chase the slaves who ran away

Evidence of an eruption from a volcano from Aegean island of Thera has been discovered

‘‘This time difference is rather striking, as it could fit the desert period of 40 years separating the Exodus from the destruction of Jericho, mentioned in ancient Hebrew texts,’’ the archeologists write. Bruins is a professor at the Ben-Gurion University of the Negev in Israel. Van der Plicht is at the University of Groningen in the Netherlands.

thefreelibrary.com/EVIDENCE+BACKS+BIBLE’S+JERICHO+BATTLE+STORY,+ARCHEOLOGISTS+SAY.-a083956818

In 1966, Manfred Bietak, Austrian archaeologist, discovered and excavated ruins at Avaris, which was the capital of Egypt under Hykoses and the modern name for this city is Tell el-Dab’a. Bietak discovered methods of burial differing from Egyptians and the walls of buildings, floor plans etc were like those built by Hebrews in Israel

That is evidence of Israel having been in Egypt in an hieroglyphic inscription that has been dated to nearly 200 years prior to the Merneptah stele

biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/ancient-cultures/ancient-israel/does-the-merneptah-stele-contain-the-first-mention-of-israel

 

[_Abyssinia]

Archeologist’s have discovered stables to breed and keep at least 460 horses, in the city of Piramesse

weekly.ahram.org.eg/1999/461/fr2.htm

Bones of horses, human beings and chariots have been found in the sea at Nuiweba

arkdiscovery.com/red_sea_crossing.htm

Exodus 14:5-7 describes Pharaoh sending chariots to chase the slaves who ran away

Evidence of an eruption from a volcano from Aegean island of Thera has been discovered

‘‘This time difference is rather striking, as it could fit the desert period of 40 years separating the Exodus from the destruction of Jericho, mentioned in ancient Hebrew texts,’’ the archeologists write. Bruins is a professor at the Ben-Gurion University of the Negev in Israel. Van der Plicht is at the University of Groningen in the Netherlands.

thefreelibrary.com/EVIDENCE+BACKS+BIBLE’S+JERICHO+BATTLE+STORY,+ARCHEOLOGISTS+SAY.-a083956818

In 1966, Manfred Bietak, Austrian archaeologist, discovered and excavated ruins at Avaris, which was the capital of Egypt under Hykoses and the modern name for this city is Tell el-Dab’a. Bietak discovered methods of burial differing from Egyptians and the walls of buildings, floor plans etc were like those built by Hebrews in Israel

That is evidence of Israel having been in Egypt in an hieroglyphic inscription that has been dated to nearly 200 years prior to the Merneptah stele

biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/ancient-cultures/ancient-israel/does-the-merneptah-stele-contain-the-first-mention-of-israel

 

[_Abyssinia]

Archeologist’s have discovered stables to breed and keep at least 460 horses, in the city of Piramesse

weekly.ahram.org.eg/1999/461/fr2.htm

Bones of horses, human beings and chariots have been found in the sea at Nuiweba

arkdiscovery.com/red_sea_crossing.htm

Exodus 14:5-7 describes Pharaoh sending chariots to chase the slaves who ran away

Evidence of an eruption from a volcano from Aegean island of Thera has been discovered

‘‘This time difference is rather striking, as it could fit the desert period of 40 years separating the Exodus from the destruction of Jericho, mentioned in ancient Hebrew texts,’’ the archeologists write. Bruins is a professor at the Ben-Gurion University of the Negev in Israel. Van der Plicht is at the University of Groningen in the Netherlands.

thefreelibrary.com/EVIDENCE+BACKS+BIBLE’S+JERICHO+BATTLE+STORY,+ARCHEOLOGISTS+SAY.-a083956818

In 1966, Manfred Bietak, Austrian archaeologist, discovered and excavated ruins at Avaris, which was the capital of Egypt under Hykoses and the modern name for this city is Tell el-Dab’a. Bietak discovered methods of burial differing from Egyptians and the walls of buildings, floor plans etc were like those built by Hebrews in Israel

That is evidence of Israel having been in Egypt in an hieroglyphic inscription that has been dated to nearly 200 years prior to the Merneptah stele

biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/ancient-cultures/ancient-israel/does-the-merneptah-stele-contain-the-first-mention-of-israel

 

[_Abyssinia]

Archeologist’s have discovered stables to breed and keep at least 460 horses, in the city of Piramesse

weekly.ahram.org.eg/1999/461/fr2.htm

Bones of horses, human beings and chariots have been found in the sea at Nuiweba

arkdiscovery.com/red_sea_crossing.htm

Exodus 14:5-7 describes Pharaoh sending chariots to chase the slaves who ran away

Evidence of an eruption from a volcano from Aegean island of Thera has been discovered

‘‘This time difference is rather striking, as it could fit the desert period of 40 years separating the Exodus from the destruction of Jericho, mentioned in ancient Hebrew texts,’’ the archeologists write. Bruins is a professor at the Ben-Gurion University of the Negev in Israel. Van der Plicht is at the University of Groningen in the Netherlands.

thefreelibrary.com/EVIDENCE+BACKS+BIBLE’S+JERICHO+BATTLE+STORY,+ARCHEOLOGISTS+SAY.-a083956818

In 1966, Manfred Bietak, Austrian archaeologist, discovered and excavated ruins at Avaris, which was the capital of Egypt under Hykoses and the modern name for this city is Tell el-Dab’a. Bietak discovered methods of burial differing from Egyptians and the walls of buildings, floor plans etc were like those built by Hebrews in Israel

That is evidence of Israel having been in Egypt in an hieroglyphic inscription that has been dated to nearly 200 years prior to the Merneptah stele

biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/ancient-cultures/ancient-israel/does-the-merneptah-stele-contain-the-first-mention-of-israel

 

[_Abyssinia]

Archeologist’s have discovered stables to breed and keep at least 460 horses, in the city of Piramesse

weekly.ahram.org.eg/1999/461/fr2.htm

Bones of horses, human beings and chariots have been found in the sea at Nuiweba

arkdiscovery.com/red_sea_crossing.htm

Exodus 14:5-7 describes Pharaoh sending chariots to chase the slaves who ran away

Evidence of an eruption from a volcano from Aegean island of Thera has been discovered

‘‘This time difference is rather striking, as it could fit the desert period of 40 years separating the Exodus from the destruction of Jericho, mentioned in ancient Hebrew texts,’’ the archeologists write. Bruins is a professor at the Ben-Gurion University of the Negev in Israel. Van der Plicht is at the University of Groningen in the Netherlands.

thefreelibrary.com/EVIDENCE+BACKS+BIBLE’S+JERICHO+BATTLE+STORY,+ARCHEOLOGISTS+SAY.-a083956818

In 1966, Manfred Bietak, Austrian archaeologist, discovered and excavated ruins at Avaris, which was the capital of Egypt under Hykoses and the modern name for this city is Tell el-Dab’a. Bietak discovered methods of burial differing from Egyptians and the walls of buildings, floor plans etc were like those built by Hebrews in Israel

That is evidence of Israel having been in Egypt in an hieroglyphic inscription that has been dated to nearly 200 years prior to the Merneptah stele

biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/ancient-cultures/ancient-israel/does-the-merneptah-stele-contain-the-first-mention-of-israel

 

[_Abyssinia]

Archeologist’s have discovered stables to breed and keep at least 460 horses, in the city of Piramesse

weekly.ahram.org.eg/1999/461/fr2.htm

Bones of horses, human beings and chariots have been found in the sea at Nuiweba

arkdiscovery.com/red_sea_crossing.htm

Exodus 14:5-7 describes Pharaoh sending chariots to chase the slaves who ran away

Evidence of an eruption from a volcano from Aegean island of Thera has been discovered

‘‘This time difference is rather striking, as it could fit the desert period of 40 years separating the Exodus from the destruction of Jericho, mentioned in ancient Hebrew texts,’’ the archeologists write. Bruins is a professor at the Ben-Gurion University of the Negev in Israel. Van der Plicht is at the University of Groningen in the Netherlands.

thefreelibrary.com/EVIDENCE+BACKS+BIBLE’S+JERICHO+BATTLE+STORY,+ARCHEOLOGISTS+SAY.-a083956818

In 1966, Manfred Bietak, Austrian archaeologist, discovered and excavated ruins at Avaris, which was the capital of Egypt under Hykoses and the modern name for this city is Tell el-Dab’a. Bietak discovered methods of burial differing from Egyptians and the walls of buildings, floor plans etc were like those built by Hebrews in Israel

That is evidence of Israel having been in Egypt in an hieroglyphic inscription that has been dated to nearly 200 years prior to the Merneptah stele

biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/ancient-cultures/ancient-israel/does-the-merneptah-stele-contain-the-first-mention-of-israel

 

[_Abyssinia]

Archeologist’s have discovered stables to breed and keep at least 460 horses, in the city of Piramesse

weekly.ahram.org.eg/1999/461/fr2.htm

Bones of horses, human beings and chariots have been found in the sea at Nuiweba

arkdiscovery.com/red_sea_crossing.htm

Exodus 14:5-7 describes Pharaoh sending chariots to chase the slaves who ran away

Evidence of an eruption from a volcano from Aegean island of Thera has been discovered

‘‘This time difference is rather striking, as it could fit the desert period of 40 years separating the Exodus from the destruction of Jericho, mentioned in ancient Hebrew texts,’’ the archeologists write. Bruins is a professor at the Ben-Gurion University of the Negev in Israel. Van der Plicht is at the University of Groningen in the Netherlands.

thefreelibrary.com/EVIDENCE+BACKS+BIBLE’S+JERICHO+BATTLE+STORY,+ARCHEOLOGISTS+SAY.-a083956818

In 1966, Manfred Bietak, Austrian archaeologist, discovered and excavated ruins at Avaris, which was the capital of Egypt under Hykoses and the modern name for this city is Tell el-Dab’a. Bietak discovered methods of burial differing from Egyptians and the walls of buildings, floor plans etc were like those built by Hebrews in Israel

That is evidence of Israel having been in Egypt in an hieroglyphic inscription that has been dated to nearly 200 years prior to the Merneptah stele

biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/ancient-cultures/ancient-israel/does-the-merneptah-stele-contain-the-first-mention-of-israel