Genuflecting for Pope

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atjar said:
He is an earthly politician. Don’t kid yourself. He’s a politician for the Catholic Church, as Barack Obama is a politician for the Democratic Party. If you want to say he’s Christ’s representative on earth, go ahead.
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Oh, it’s not just me, but the Church herself who gives him that title. Oh, and Christ gave him the title of Foundation of the Church; does that not deserve respect, more so than some guy whom just a bit less than 50% of the US likes?
But he’s not Christ, and venerating a sinning human being, as well as venerating art, and bleeding statues, and saints, is idolatry.
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Hmmm… atjar vs. orthodox Catholicism, which to choose? Careful, friend: you’re veering into Evangelical territory here.
Christ is the way; all else is background noise. If only through Christ you are saved, why venerate intermediaries, especially those you have to kneel in front of?
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Perhaps because without Mary’s fiat, Christ would not have come? Or because without St Joseph’s protection, He could have been killed? The list goes on and on.

God has given us the gift of saints who aid us on our path to Christ and the gift of a Church that teaches us how to reach Him. Are you going to put your word against Sacred Tradition, against the Doctors, against the theologians against the saints, against the popes, against the mystics, and against the Church herself?
 
JamesTheJust said:
So you allege that all the saints (i.e. people whom we know to be in Heaven) who have done so have been unconfessed idolaters, and that all the popes, Doctors of the Church, Fathers, mystics, theologians, and other Catholics who have for 2000 years promoted the practice of kneeling before statues to have been promulgating heresy? :rolleyes:
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I have never been told that I should kneel before a statue of a saint. Nor have any of the peoples you mentioned promoted this practice to my knowledge.
 
KrazyKat said:
I have never been told that I should kneel before a statue of a saint. Nor have any of the peoples you mentioned promoted this practice to my knowledge.
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🙂 For me, I turn to the saints, especially our Blessed Mother, as I turned to close family members and friends. I ask them to pray for me.

I know that Mary, the saints, and the Pope have no power except the power of prayer. The power of prayer that we all have when we approach God.

I see nothing wrong in asking anyone to pray for me.

When I look at a photo of my mother, sister or brother who I have lost in this world. I will talk to them and ask them to pray for me. I do not worship them. That is no different than representations of statues. No different all. Photos and statues merely remind us of whom we love.
 
JamesTheJust said:
Oh, it’s not just me, but the Church herself who gives him that title. Oh, and Christ gave him the title of Foundation of the Church; does that not deserve respect, more so than some guy whom just a bit less than 50% of the US likes?

Hmmm… atjar vs. orthodox Catholicism, which to choose? Careful, friend: you’re veering into Evangelical territory here.

Perhaps because without Mary’s fiat, Christ would not have come? Or because without St Joseph’s protection, He could have been killed? The list goes on and on.

God has given us the gift of saints who aid us on our path to Christ and the gift of a Church that teaches us how to reach Him.
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God is all powerful; St. Joseph’s protection and Mary’s fiat (she drove a car? Hah!) were because God made it so to make sure his son was born and protected until adulthood to fufull prophesy. Again, you are ascribing intermediaries the same kind of veneration that should be reserved only for Christ. No need for it.
AJ
 
I think that Atjar just wants to fight. I think I will not try to come to any understanding with him or her. There are many wonderful people (many who disagree with me on a variety of reasons) who enjoy discussing issues without looking for a fight. These are the people I love to talk to.

But I do appreciate those who are patient with him or her.
 
atjar said:
God is all powerful; St. Joseph’s protection and Mary’s fiat were because God made it so
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Nope. We’re not Calvinists; both Joseph and Mary had free will.
to make sure his son was born and protected until adulthood to fufull prophesy. Again, you are ascribing intermediaries the same kind of veneration that should be reserved only for Christ. No need for it.
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Again: it’s not just me. It’s the Church. Veneration of saints is a part of Catholicism. Surely you’re familiar with the parts of the Mass where we implore the saints to intercede for us.
She drove a car? Hah!
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Not sure whether you’re being sarcastic or not. Just in case, I’ll post this:
The word “fiat” means an official decree or to give sanction to something. In Latin it means “let there be” or “let it happen/exist.” For example, in Genesis when God said “Let there be light” the Latin phrase is “fiat lux.”
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The word in common language has become a kind of “catch all” word to describe a permission received or a rule given.
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Mary’s response to the angel was a “fiat” statement: “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word.” Or in Latin: “dixit autem Maria ecce ancilla Domini fiat mihi secundum verbum tuum et discessit ab illa angelus”
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When we refer to Mary’s fiat we are referring to Mary’s submission to the will of God.
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HelenRose said:
🙂 For me, I turn to the saints, especially our Blessed Mother, as I turned to close family members and friends. I ask them to pray for me.

I know that Mary, the saints, and the Pope have no power except the power of prayer. The power of prayer that we all have when we approach God.

I see nothing wrong in asking anyone to pray for me.

When I look at a photo of my mother, sister or brother who I have lost in this world. I will talk to them and ask them to pray for me. I do not worship them. That is no different than representations of statues. No different all. Photos and statues merely remind us of whom we love.
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But the pope’s or saint’s “power of prayer” is no more powerful than you own. Christ taught us how the pray; we don’t need saints or bleeding statues or any other apparitions to do it for us. Again, he gave you all the tools you need on your road to salvation. Use them. Don’t rely on spooks in the sky or statutes of dead people.
AJ
 
HelenRose said:
I think that Atjar just wants to fight. I think I will not try to come to any understanding with him or her. There are many wonderful people (many who disagree with me on a variety of reasons) who enjoy discussing issues without looking for a fight. These are the people I love to talk to.
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I’m with you.
 
JamesTheJust said:
Nope. We’re not Calvinists; both Joseph and Mary had free will.

Again: it’s not just me. It’s the Church. Veneration of saints is a part of Catholicism. Surely you’re familiar with the parts of the Mass where we implore the saints to intercede for us.

Not sure whether you’re being sarcastic or not. Just in case, I’ll post this:
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Fiat. Lighten up. It’s a car as well!
As to veneration of saints. Last time I will say it: It’s part of Catholicism made up by human beings, the same human beings that at one time said the way to heaven is through paid indulgences and the same human beings who taught the earth is the center of the universe. Veneration of saints is a human, not biblical, creation and as such subject to being not the right thing to do.
That is all.
 
KrazyKat said:
I have never been told that I should kneel before a statue of a saint. Nor have any of the peoples you mentioned promoted this practice to my knowledge.
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There is no hard-and-fast requirement to kneel at any time other than the prescribed parts of Mass, but kneeling is a common Latin Catholic posture of supplication and prayer. If you look in any well-built church with statues and shrines for them, you will often find a prie-dieu or kneeler in front of it, which is a signal that it is customary to kneel.

A common error for Protestants is to assume that prayer = worship, and similarly that kneeling in prayer = worship. We don’t worship statues, yet we kneel before them; we don’t worship the Pope or other prelates of the Church, yet we kneel before them in veneration. Frankly I think the Vatican II generation has some kind of phobic terror of kneeling like it is a throwback to dark old times and should never be spoken of in enlightened circles. Kneeling is one of the honored traditions of the Church and it’s part of the baby that was thrown out with the bathwater of post-Conciliar liturgical reform and renewal.

Now show me in the Vatican II documents where we are discouraged from kneeling in veneration or prayer.

When I asked if you were a single man, it was because I immediately thought of young men kneeling before their beloved to propose marriage, and kissing them tenderly on the hand bearing the ring that signifies their lifelong bond of love. Now I wonder if you would somehow object to this practice as well? Or is that OK as an exception, because it is done out of a carnal, erotic love for a human person, rather than a spiritual, agape veneration for a holy person?
 
Ugh, I’m a born debater. Last post, I promise.
atjar said:
But the pope’s or saint’s “power of prayer” is no more powerful than you own.
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The saints are in the presence of God. Also, Christ came to us through Mary; is it not fitting that we go to Him through her?
Christ taught us how the pray; we don’t need saints or bleeding statues or any other apparitions to do it for us. Again, he gave you all the tools you need on your road to salvation. Use them.
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And some of those tools are His saints.
Don’t rely on spooks in the sky or statutes of dead people.
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This sounds like the typical Protestant polemic.
 
JamesTheJust said:
Ugh, I’m a born debater. Last post, I promise.

The saints are in the presence of God. Also, Christ came to us through Mary; is it not fitting that we go to Him through her?

And some of those tools are His saints.

This sounds like the typical Protestant polemic.
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And my dead father, if he’s in heaven, he’s in the presence of God as well, not different, no more exalted, no more having any more special “in” with God than any other righteous man or woman who makes it to the afterlife, so-called saint or otherwise.
AJ
 
atjar said:
But the pope’s or saint’s “power of prayer” is no more powerful than you own. Christ taught us how the pray; we don’t need saints or bleeding statues or any other apparitions to do it for us. Again, he gave you all the tools you need on your road to salvation.
AJ
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Same old blah blah blah. We do these things because God so willed them. God willed that we have the Communion of Saints. The eye cannot say to the hand “I do not need you.”
atjar said:
And my dead father, if he’s in heaven, he’s in the presence of God as well, not different, no more exalted, no more having any more special “in” with God than any other righteous man or woman who makes it to the afterlife, so-called saint or otherwise.
AJ
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Wrong again. There is a hierarchy in Heaven, different levels of angels, as well as those Saints and people in Heaven. Heaven is not communist.
 
atjar said:
Fiat. Lighten up. It’s a car as well!
As to veneration of saints. Last time I will say it: It’s part of Catholicism made up by human beings
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Okay, now I’m afraid that you’ve been a victim of poor catechesis. I’m sorry if this is so. Catholics believe that the Church is protected by the Holy Spirit from promulgating error using the infallible Magisterium (see John 16:13; Mt 16, 18, etc.).
the same human beings that at one time said the way to heaven is through paid indulgences and the same human beings who taught the earth is the center of the universe.
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If you do a quick search on Catholic apologetics sites, you’ll find that these claims are both false. If you are unfamiliar with these online resources, you can PM me and I’ll send you some. 🙂
Veneration of saints is a human, not biblical, creation and as such subject to being not the right thing to do.
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There are other resources which dispel this as well. You can see the scriptural passage I posted much earlier in the thread (you can’t miss it; it’s in bold) for just a bit of the proof.
 
atjar said:
And my dead father, if he’s in heaven, he’s in the presence of God as well, not different, no more exalted, no more having any more special “in” with God than any other righteous man or woman who makes it to the afterlife, so-called saint or otherwise.
AJ
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If your father is in Heaven, he is a saint (as that’s the definition of saint), and he is suitable to implore for intercession. However, unless your father has been cause for canonization has been opened, we can’t know that he is in Heaven, so he is unsuitable for prayer.
 
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