Genuflecting in Anglican Churches - Anglican Eucharist

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As I said, it is sad.
Theres a fine line of being asked to be respectful and asking for too much. Like, I would be okay with taking off my shoes in a mosque, or covering my head in a jewish temple, or stand/sit in a bhuddist service. But, too ask someone to grovel on the floor, or sumthing to that extent is asking too much. That is why the missalettes instruct that visitors are asked to sit and stand when everyone does, but are only invited to kneel after the Sanctus and should not feel obligated to do so. I would bow etc., genuflect is one of the highest forms of reverence reserved only for teh Blessed Sacrament.
 
But in a Catholic Church, it is proper to genuflect towards the altar or the crucifix, if there is no tabernacle in the sanctuary. Frequently, as in my old church, the tabernacle is housed in a chapel.

So, if I’m in a Protestant church and there is a cross, I have no problem genuflecting to the cross. This is because I am genuflecting to what the cross symbolizes. I believe that this is wholly appropriate.

Now, if an Episcopalian were actively misled by what I was doing into believing that I believed that the eucharist in his church was the same as the Eucharist in mine, I would reconsider. But in general, I don’t think this happens. That is, I don’t think that there are any Episcopalians who would think that I was giving equivalent endorsement of their beliefs based on me genuflecting before I entered a pew.

That said, there are things I wouldn’t do, because they would communicate such a thing to even the casual observer. These would be praying before their tabernacle or going to adoration at their church. I would never do such a thing.

But genuflect? I am doing it to the cross, not the bread.
The genuflection, seen as a sign of adoration, is reserved always for the Eucharist. It is reserved also for the cross ***only ***between its solemn veneration on Good Friday and the beginning of the Easter Vigil.
To state that it is ok to genuflect at any time to the Cross, is misleading and spreading confusion.

See http://www.arch.pvt.k12.ia.us/Worship/PDFs/GIRM-Genuflect bow.pdf
 
This is a misrepresentation of the duty placed on Catholics.

We have no duty to “respect the beliefs” of others, in that there is any obligation to behave as if they were true if they are not.

Gerry
“Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” Sound familiar?

I assume you would want non-catholics to respect your belief? Right? Well…
 
OP said “hey, I know that teh Anglican church teaches Real Presence in their eucharist, but does that mean it is valid?”

Someone may have pointed this out. If kittens are born in the oven and somebody calls them biscuits does that mean they are?

I was Episcopalian for 20 years. I am reverent when I am in an Episcopal Church or any church for that matter. But Genuflecting is reserved for Christ. And the bread and wine in the Epsicopal church are bread and wine, nothing more. They call them “the real presence” but the Catholic church does not recognize it as such.
Queen Elizabeth I reputedly said, “Christ was the word that spake it. He took the bread and break it; And what his words did make it That I believe and take it.” And she was a good, pious Anglican. But she alledgedly said this while Mary her sister was queen. Undoubtedly ahe said this to hedge whether or not it was truly HIs blessed body and blood or not.
 
Melanie Ann said “In the Episcopal Mass, any blessed Sacrament elements are consumed entirely. The Priest is required to consume any blessed sacraments not used during the Eucharist. So nothing resides in a Tabernacle, and, in fact, there is no Tabernacle (so far as I have ever seen!) because there is no retained Host, at least not in an Episcopal church. (Anglicans can feel free to chime in and dissent!)”

Having been in many Episcopal churches with AUMBRYs which is what Episcopalians call tabernacles, I must disagree. There was reserve sacrament (as it was called in the PECUSA) placed there after every eucharist.
Aumbry - A receptacle to hold the Reserved Sacrament, that is affixed to a wall, or sits on a shelf apart from an altar (see Tabernacle). An aumbry may also be used as a place where chrism and oil are kept; this aumbry is separate from the one used for the Sacrament, and is not identified by the burning of a Sanctuary Lamp.
stannesdamascus.org/a.htm
 
When I was a Presbyterian, later Anglican, it used to bother my how ignorant “we” were about the Catholic Church. Now that I’m Roman Catholic, I find that “we” are just as ignorant and probably more self rightous.

I too find some of the replies uncharitable.
Fred
 
I would like to say that is unfortunate that some Catholics posting here are being uncharitable. This is a poor way to represent the Catholic Faith. However, being charitable does not mean comprising doctrines of the Church. We must remember that because of an invalid Apostolic Succession, the Holy Orders of the Anglican churches are invalid, and hence so is their Eucharist.
 
The question of the validity of Anglican orders in Roman eyes is indeed a thorny matter. And in truth there was a difficulty in terms of Apostolic succession in the Church of England, where a doubt unquestionably did hang over the matter of the bishops’ Succession in Marian/Elizabethan times.

The (Anglican) Church of Ireland, however, is an entirely different matter. Here there was no hiatus whatsoever in terms of direct transmission of Apostolic Succession. The bishops, as a body (with only two exceptions) accepted the Anglican Settlement at the time of the Reformation, and the Church proudly proclaims its direct line of descent from Patrick in the 400s. Moreover, the participation of C of I bishops in the ordination of C of E Bishops in the past 500 years undoubtedly has long since conferred the thread of true Apostolicity back to the C of E bishops.

On the matter of the understanding of the Eucharist, it is my understanding that the ARCIC talks had reached a point of substantial understanding of the position of both the Catholic and Anglican sides, which seemed to be remarkably close to agreement. Great progress had also been made on the question of the position of the Pope and on Authority. But there has been nothing on this in quite a number of years. The matter seems to have stalled, and personally, I was left with the impression that Rome had lost interest in Ecumenism. I stand, gladly, to be corrected on this point. Can anyone say where it stands on the present Holy Father’s agenda?

Personally, as an Anglo-Catholic, I have no difficulty in subscribing to the doctrine of Transubstantiation, although I believe that it was proclaimed rather late - in the 1400s? [Council of Constance?] I feel, however that a reliance on the words and intention of Our Saviour is a surer anchor on which to pin my belief. The old ‘jingle’

His was the word that spake it;
He took the Bread and brake it;
And what that word did make it,
I do believe and take it.

sums my position. And I see nothing in this that is contrary to holding to Transubstantiation as a tenet of faith.

As to genuflecting in Anglican churches, it is not required. Respect can be shown in many ways - pausing to say a quiet prayer, light a candle, buy a book of magazine. Besides, most Anglican churches where I come from do not reserve the Blessed Sacrament, so a genuflection would not be appropriate. It is customary among Anglicans, however, to incline the head in a modest bow when passing before the altar. This indicates respect for the place where our ‘sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving’ is made.

Anglicanism occupies a precarious place between the Roman Catholic Church and the much furtherer shores of the Genevan-style Reformation. It leans rather towards the Roman Catholic Church which most Anglicans regard as the great Mother Church of the West, and the Pope as the Patriarch - the Father. It is saddening, therefore to see some of the comments that I have noticed from time to time here on this board. Surely triumphalism has no part to play in shaping realtions between Christian brothers and sisters? Is it every bit as hindering to unity as the Reformers’ name-calling? Certainly there were bad Popes, but the Office of the Papacy always remains unsullied; and while calling the Pope the Antichrist may have seemed justified in terms of a Borgia, it was forgotten that Our Lord instituted the Office and that Office must always be respected and honoured regardless of the incumbent. But moderation, sadly, was not a virtue of those far off times. We should make it a virtue in the here and now.

Jesus’ prayer was that we all be one. We owe it to our Master to encourage each other, in all charity, towards that goal.
 
The question of the validity of Anglican orders in Roman eyes is indeed a thorny matter. And in truth there was a difficulty in terms of Apostolic succession in the Church of England, where a doubt unquestionably did hang over the matter of the bishops’ Succession in Marian/Elizabethan times.

The (Anglican) Church of Ireland, however, is an entirely different matter. Here there was no hiatus whatsoever in terms of direct transmission of Apostolic Succession. The bishops, as a body (with only two exceptions) accepted the Anglican Settlement at the time of the Reformation, and the Church proudly proclaims its direct line of descent from Patrick in the 400s. Moreover, the participation of C of I bishops in the ordination of C of E Bishops in the past 500 years undoubtedly has long since conferred the thread of true Apostolicity back to the C of E bishops.

On the matter of the understanding of the Eucharist, it is my understanding that the ARCIC talks had reached a point of substantial understanding of the position of both the Catholic and Anglican sides, which seemed to be remarkably close to agreement. Great progress had also been made on the question of the position of the Pope and on Authority. But there has been nothing on this in quite a number of years. The matter seems to have stalled, and personally, I was left with the impression that Rome had lost interest in Ecumenism. I stand, gladly, to be corrected on this point. Can anyone say where it stands on the present Holy Father’s agenda?

Personally, as an Anglo-Catholic, I have no difficulty in subscribing to the doctrine of Transubstantiation, although I believe that it was proclaimed rather late - in the 1400s? [Council of Constance?] I feel, however that a reliance on the words and intention of Our Saviour is a surer anchor on which to pin my belief. The old ‘jingle’

His was the word that spake it;
He took the Bread and brake it;
And what that word did make it,
I do believe and take it.

sums my position. And I see nothing in this that is contrary to holding to Transubstantiation as a tenet of faith.

As to genuflecting in Anglican churches, it is not required. Respect can be shown in many ways - pausing to say a quiet prayer, light a candle, buy a book of magazine. Besides, most Anglican churches where I come from do not reserve the Blessed Sacrament, so a genuflection would not be appropriate. It is customary among Anglicans, however, to incline the head in a modest bow when passing before the altar. This indicates respect for the place where our ‘sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving’ is made.

Anglicanism occupies a precarious place between the Roman Catholic Church and the much furtherer shores of the Genevan-style Reformation. It leans rather towards the Roman Catholic Church which most Anglicans regard as the great Mother Church of the West, and the Pope as the Patriarch - the Father. It is saddening, therefore to see some of the comments that I have noticed from time to time here on this board. Surely triumphalism has no part to play in shaping realtions between Christian brothers and sisters? Is it every bit as hindering to unity as the Reformers’ name-calling? Certainly there were bad Popes, but the Office of the Papacy always remains unsullied; and while calling the Pope the Antichrist may have seemed justified in terms of a Borgia, it was forgotten that Our Lord instituted the Office and that Office must always be respected and honoured regardless of the incumbent. But moderation, sadly, was not a virtue of those far off times. We should make it a virtue in the here and now.

Jesus’ prayer was that we all be one. We owe it to our Master to encourage each other, in all charity, towards that goal.
Very interesting information. Thank you for that.
 
Herod,

With a couple of nuances (the Sacarament is reserved, locally, for example), your attitude is mine.

The progress of the ARCIC, in reaching some theoretical agreements, has been largely rendered moot by the issue of females in collars/mitres, and some of the sexual issues. Too bad. Paul and Michael had such hopes.

On transubstantiation, Fourth Lateran, I think, and then Trent.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus
 
The genuflection, seen as a sign of adoration, is reserved always for the Eucharist. It is reserved also for the cross ***only ***between its solemn veneration on Good Friday and the beginning of the Easter Vigil.
To state that it is ok to genuflect at any time to the Cross, is misleading and spreading confusion.

See http://www.arch.pvt.k12.ia.us/Worship/PDFs/GIRM-Genuflect bow.pdf
You’re right. Just looked it up in the GIRM on the USCCB website.

I guess I mistook common mispractice for correctness.

Thanks.
 
“Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” Sound familiar?
Yes, but that’s why we have the duty to respect the person, isn’t it? I’ve simply never encountered the concept of respecting something merely because someone else believes it. That respect can lead to a quiet, “No, I don’t” when someone says, say, “Surely you believe in reincarnation.” A lack of it would lead to calling someone who asked the question a rude name, which would be neglect of the duty.
I assume you would want non-catholics to respect your belief? Right? Well…
Actually, I couldn’t care less. But I might come down on them like a ton of bricks, in a weak moment, if they abuse me because of them. I, as they, have rights. One of the last things one should worry about is what other people think of Catholic beliefs. My Dad’s relatives were a wee free Presbyterian sect who hated Catholics – the Pope as anti-Christ, as per the Westminster Confession – and when Dad converted, they called Mom a “papist bitch.” Didn’t shake our beliefs a bit.

“If you were of the world, the world would love you.”

Blessings,

Gerry
 
With some of the intermingling between the clergy of the Anglican Communion and the clergy of what Rome has declared to be Churches with Apostolic Succession, this issue has become very clouded.

You simply cannot know for certain that the Eucharist reserved in an Anglican Communion tabernacle is invalid. If that priest was ordained by a bishop who was ordained by bishops from the Communion and a bishop from one of the Churches with Apostolic Succession, then his ordination by that bishop is valid, and so is the Eucharist, assuming he gave the correct words of institution and intended to consecrate the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Jesus.

Since you cannot know for certain, why take the chance and not genuflect?
 
With some of the intermingling between the clergy of the Anglican Communion and the clergy of what Rome has declared to be Churches with Apostolic Succession, this issue has become very clouded.

You simply cannot know for certain that the Eucharist reserved in an Anglican Communion tabernacle is invalid. If that priest was ordained by a bishop who was ordained by bishops from the Communion and a bishop from one of the Churches with Apostolic Succession, then his ordination by that bishop is valid, and so is the Eucharist, assuming he gave the correct words of institution and intended to consecrate the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Jesus.
Also provided proper form, intent and matter were appropriately present. at the episcopla consecrations and priestly ordinations…

I really hate to play the “are they/aren’t they?”/“isit/isn’t it?” game on matter of sacraments and priests…
 
Also provided proper form, intent and matter were appropriately present. at the episcopla consecrations and priestly ordinations…

I really hate to play the “are they/aren’t they?”/“isit/isn’t it?” game on matter of sacraments and priests…
So do some of us Anglicans. Even so, we understand it has to be done, in some circumstances.

GKC
 
MelanieAnne is unsuscribing to the thread.
Methinks she has become entirely too disturbed on this subject seeing as how she is supposed to be a Catholic now and putting away the heretical beliefs or non-Catholics.

Herod, exactly what is an "anglo-catholic"? You either ARE a Catholic in union with Rome or you are not.
 
MelanieAnne is unsuscribing to the thread.
Methinks she has become entirely too disturbed on this subject seeing as how she is supposed to be a Catholic now and putting away the heretical beliefs or non-Catholics.

Herod, exactly what is an "anglo-catholic"? You either ARE a Catholic in union with Rome or you are not.
That’s right. An Anglo-Catholic is a Catholic not in communion with Rome. Yes, I know you don’t agree.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus
 
So do some of us Anglicans. Even so, we understand it has to be done, in some circumstances.

GKC
Only if you are trying to hash out a a way to exist as a type of anglo-Catholic in the old PECUSA. I am not. That is your battle not mine. Good luck with it, but I have enough on my plate.
 
Herod, exactly what is an "anglo-catholic"? You either ARE a Catholic in union with Rome or you are not.
You can read about Anglo-Catholics here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo_Catholic

They are a party in the Anglican communion that seeks greater identity with the more Catholic elements of their theology over the Protestant influences. Generally, they are a minority party in TAC with foundations most recently rooted in The Oxford movement some 170 years ago.

The problem many Catholics have with the AC claims is one of historical continuity as a “catholic” body. Whereas the East or Old Catholic bodies had a continuity in their catholicity (ie. the recognition of 7 sacraments could generally be seen as continuously intact) the same may not be said of the Anglican Communion.

To many Catholics, this recovery of a more catholic, non-protestant identity may be seen as “too little, too late”. If today a party in the Methodist Church began to use the Roman Missal or the Eastern Divine Liturgy of St. John Chysostom, we would see such external adaptations as being positive, to be sure, but not enough to begin to view that body as a “catholic” body.

Many ACs go through considerable effort and energy to demonstrate that they are possesed of an unbroken lineage of catholicity that was never “Protestant/Reformed”. I am, to date, unconvinced by these claims.

I feel that while they have done an excellent job in creating and promoting a very catholic vision of their faith, it remains problematic to Catholics and Orthodox. Generally we are not comfortable to view them as merely “Catholics in schism” from the rest of the Catholic world in the same way that Eastern Orthodox, Church of the East, Oriental Orthodox, Old Catholics or even Brazillian National Catholics are.
 
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