Genuflecting

[Eilish_Maura]

I would offer that the tabernacle being placed on (or immediately behind) the altar would draw attention to the entire altar, and that there would be no contention between the altar and the tabernacle. See my other posts on the excerpts from documents about the tabernacle.

It would be very hard to place the tabernacle on the altar where mass is said without generating all manner of misunderstanding.

Even among those I have met who know and recognize the Real Presence they do not know the purposes for reserving the Blessed Sacrament. Some think it is reserved because it is the central focus of the church - which is not true because the altar where Mass takes place is.

On another forum it was said that it was good to have the tabernacle behind the altar so when if the priest is making use of ad orientum he would be able to face Jesus. Now why would that be necessary or desireable? We don’t offer the Mass to Jesus and the priest is in persona Christi at mass.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Right, however, EM is only an Instruction (rather than some dogmatic proclamation) and so it can be overruled in the future (as Inter Oecumenici was overruled in this case.) It is also not part of Vatican II, as a matter of fact. Finally, the “sign value” behind it may be found to be of less importance than the previously existing sign value of the tabernacle being a part of the altar itself.

The previous sign value is what has generate much of the confusion that lead to the Instruction.

 

[japhy]

It would be very hard to place the tabernacle on the altar where mass is said without generating all manner of misunderstanding.

Which is why priests can give catechesis in their homilies. Things can be explained. People understanding their faith is a good thing.

Even among those I have met who know and recognize the Real Presence they do not know the purposes for reserving the Blessed Sacrament. Some think it is reserved because it is the central focus of the church - which is not true because the altar where Mass takes place is.

See above. The reserved Blessed Sacrament isn’t the focus of the Mass, because Mass can be celebrated with an empty tabernacle. All it takes is teaching and instruction.

On another forum it was said that it was good to have the tabernacle behind the altar so when if the priest is making use of ad orientum he would be able to face Jesus. Now why would that be necessary or desireable? We don’t offer the Mass to Jesus and the priest is in persona Christi at mass.

See? Misinformation. Someone misunderstands to whom Mass is being prayed: to the Father, by the Son (as opposed to to the Son). All it takes is catechesis. The homily is a great place to get that done.

But it does make sense to pray in the direction of the tabernacle, not because it is the direction of the Blessed Sacrament, but because it is like unto the Holy of Holies, and as Israel prayed before it to God, so we pray, facing East, facing the crucifix, facing Jesus who will return, facing (why not?) the tabernacle (the Holy of Holies), and the priest, in persona Christi, prays to the Father.

All it takes is catechesis. Without instruction, we might as well not change a thing.

 

[Brendan]

This ia an official explanation as to why the tabernacle should not be on the altar of celebration given in the document “Eucharisticum Mysterium” (1967) No. 55: That incidentally is an official Church Document, not something I snatched out of the air,

“In the celebration of Mass the principal modes of Christ’s presence to his Church emerge clearly one after the other: first he is seen to be present in the assembly of the faithful gathered in his name; then in his word, with the reading and explanation of Scripture; also in the person of the minister;** finally, in a singular way under the Eucharistic elements.** Consequently, on the grounds of the sign value, i**t is more in keeping with the nature of the celebration that, through reservation of the sacrament in the tabernacle, Christ not be present Eucharistically from the beginning on the altar **where Mass is celebrated. That presence is the effect of the consecration and should appear as such.”

Read it as you will, it seems pretty cut and dried where the focus is to be.

As far as genuflecting, you do not genuflect to the altar or to the Crucifix. You genuflect to the Tabernacle wherever it may be when you pass in front of it, the same way you did before they were moved.

Note the key word, that the tabernacle should no longer be on the altar. That is accomplished by detatching the altar from the reredos. Note that EM never mentions moving the tabernacle out from the sanctuary, only that it not be placed on the altar.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

But it does make sense to pray in the direction of the tabernacle, not because it is the direction of the Blessed Sacrament, but because it is like unto the Holy of Holies, and as Israel prayed before it to God, so we pray, facing East, facing the crucifix, facing Jesus who will return, facing (why not?) the tabernacle (the Holy of Holies), and the priest, in persona Christi, prays to the Father.

Where does the Church teach that the tabernacle is in any way “the Holy of Holies”??

 

[Brendan]

Where does the Church teach that the tabernacle is in any way “the Holy of Holies”??

We get the name “Tabernacle” from the Holy of Holies in the Temple. It was the heart of the Temple in Jerusalem, the “Holy Ground” were the ark had rested, and thus where God resided on Earth.

The Church used the same term for OUR Holy of Holies, our place where God resides on Earth.

The very fact we use the term “Tabernacle” is because it is the Holy of Holies.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

We get the name “Tabernacle” from the Holy of Holies in the Temple. It was the heart of the Temple in Jerusalem, the “Holy Ground” were the ark had rested, and thus where God resided on Earth.

The Church used the same term for OUR Holy of Holies, our place where God resides on Earth.

The very fact we use the term “Tabernacle” is because it is the Holy of Holies.

According to the Pocket Catholic Dictionary

TABERNACLE. A cupboard or boxlike receptacle for the exclusive reservation of the Blessed Sacrament. In early Christian times the sacred species was reserved in the home because of possible persecution. Later dove-shaped tabernacles were suspended by chains before the altar. Nowadays tabernacles may be round or rectangular and made of wood, stone, or metal. They are covered with a veil and lined with precious metal or silk, with a corporal beneath the ciboria or other sacred vessels. According to the directive of the Holy See, since the Second Vatican Council, tabernacles are always solid and inviolable and located in the middle of the main altar or on a side altar, but always in a truly prominent place (Eucharisticum Mysterium, May 25, 1967, II, C). (Etym. Latin tabernaculum, tent, diminutive of taberna, hut, perhaps from Etruscan.)

therealpresence.org/cgi-bin/getdefinition.pl

And Newadvent.org does not list this link in its entry regarding the tabernacle:

newadvent.org/cathen/14424a.htm

 

[japhy]

Where does the Church teach that the tabernacle is in any way “the Holy of Holies”??

To be precise, “tabernacle” is a word for “tent”, which was mishkan, the portable sanctuary in which the Israelites transported the Ark of the Covenant. Of course, in churches, the tabernacle does not contain the “Ark”, it contains God Himself in the Most Blessed Sacrament.

My analogy was not a precise one; sorry.

 

[japhy]

And Newadvent.org does not list this link in its entry regarding the tabernacle:

newadvent.org/cathen/14424a.htm

To be fair, the Catholic Encyclopedia makes absolutely no reference whatsoever to the tabernacle of the Israelites.

 

[MrS]

We get the name “Tabernacle” from the Holy of Holies in the Temple. It was the heart of the Temple in Jerusalem, the “Holy Ground” were the ark had rested, and thus where God resided on Earth.

The Church used the same term for OUR Holy of Holies, our place where God resides on Earth.

The very fact we use the term “Tabernacle” is because it is the Holy of Holies.

In addition, the Holy of Holies was separated from view by a curtain, or veil (the veil that was torn top to bottom when Christ died)

Today, many many tabernacles have a veil covering the actual door as a reminder that it is the Holy of Holies.

 

[japhy]

In my first post, I’d said the Sanctuary was the Holy of Holies (which the Catholic Encyclopedia does allude to); later I said the tabernacle also was “like unto the Holy of Holies”. I will admit the Church does not explicitly teach the second (but might implicitly), and that my statement was an interpretation of my own.

 

[MrS]

In my first post, I’d said the Sanctuary was the Holy of Holies (which the Catholic Encyclopedia does allude to); later I said the tabernacle also was “like unto the Holy of Holies”. I will admit the Church does not explicitly teach the second (but might implicitly), and that my statement was an interpretation of my own.

In the OT and in Jewish practice, the priests could all enter the area just outside the Holy of Holies. Only the High Priest could actually enter the Holy of Holies.

In Catholicism, Who is the High Priest? Jesus.

Who are the priests… the celebrants of the Mass.

Who resides outside the the Tabernacle… the priests.

Who resides inside the Tabernacle… the High Priest

.

 

[THurifer2]

Where does the Church teach that the tabernacle is in any way “the Holy of Holies”??

Where do you suppose the term Tabernacle comes from?

Why do you suppose the church uses the specific term tabernacle?

 

[Eilish_Maura]

To be fair, the Catholic Encyclopedia makes absolutely no reference whatsoever to the tabernacle of the Israelites.

It seems reasonable that IF it was that much of a influence it would at least get a small note in the encyclopedia’s entry.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Where do you suppose the term Tabernacle comes from?

Why do you suppose the church uses the specific term tabernacle?

I posted the Catholic Dictionary definition and the link to the Catholic Encyclopedia entry as a follow up to the first time this came up here.

The word’s origin has been noted.

 

[palmas85]

Right, however, EM is only an Instruction (rather than some dogmatic proclamation) and so it can be overruled in the future (as Inter Oecumenici was overruled in this case.) It is also not part of Vatican II, as a matter of fact. Finally, the “sign value” behind it may be found to be of less importance than the previously existing sign value of the tabernacle being a part of the altar itself.

Hey I agree with you. I was just posting something that many apparently aren’t aware of.

 

[palmas85]

The previous sign value is what has generate much of the confusion that lead to the Instruction.

There wasn’t any confusion at all as far as I can recall. Sorry. We knew exactly what the Tabernacle was, what the consecration was and what it did what the reserved Blessed Sacrament was and we knew what the altar was… Believe it or not we were actually taught those things in catechism classes.

The only confusion existed in the minds of those hell bent on reform whether they were needed or not,

 

[THurifer2]

I posted the Catholic Dictionary definition and the link to the Catholic Encyclopedia entry as a follow up to the first time this came up here.

The word’s origin has been noted.

Great, What do you think of the church choosing the term tabernacle then…since we all know its origin.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

There wasn’t any confusion at all as far as I can recall. Sorry. We knew exactly what the Tabernacle was, what the consecration was and what it did what the reserved Blessed Sacrament was and we knew what the altar was… Believe it or not we were actually taught those things in catechism classes.

The only confusion existed in the minds of those hell bent on reform whether they were needed or not,

Yep - and no one was taught that if you chewed the Host your mouth would fill up with blood or that it was horribly wrong to let it touch your teeth.

I am glad you were not aware of any such issues and most in your area were well trained.

But it does exist - some of it has shown up in these forums.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

Please stay on topic, people, for the sake of the OP. Thank you.