Genuine Belief

[liquidpele]

Food for thought I figured I would post for discussion. ​

I needed reinforcements. “Look,” I said, “four billion people believe in some sort of God and free will. They can’t all be wrong.”

“Very few people believe in God,” he replied.

I didn’t see how he could deny the obvious. “Of course they do. Billions of people believe in God.”

The old man leaned toward me, resting a blanketed elbow on the arm of his rocker. “Four billion people say they believe in God, but few genuinely believe. If people believed in God, they would live every minute of their lives in support of that belief. Rich people would give their wealth to the needy. Everyone would be frantic to determine which religion was the true one. No one could be comfortable in the thought that they might have picked the wrong religion and blundered into eternal damnation, or bad reincarnation, or some other unthinkable consequence. People would dedicate their lives to converting others to their religions. “A belief in God would demand one hundred percent obsessive devotion, influencing every waking moment of this brief life on earth. But your four billion so-called believers do not live their lives in that fashion, except for a few. The majority believe in the usefulness of their beliefs—an earthly and practical utility—but they do not believe in the underlying reality.”

I couldn’t believe what I was hearing. “If you asked them, they’d say they believe.”

“They say that they believe because pretending to believe is necessary to get the benefits of religion. They tell other people that they believe and they do believer-like things, like praying and reading holy books. But they don’t do the things that a true believer would do, the things a true believer would have to do. If you believe a truck is coming toward you, you will jump out of the way. That is belief in the reality of the truck. If you tell people you fear the truck but do nothing to get out of the way, that is not belief in the truck. Likewise, it is not belief to say God exists and then continue sinning and hoarding your wealth while innocent people die of starvation. When belief does not control your most important decisions, it is not belief in the underlying reality, it is belief in the usefulness of believing.”

“Are you saying God doesn’t exist?” I asked, trying to get to the point.

“I’m saying that people claim to believe in God, but most don’t literally believe. They only act as though they believe because there are earthly benefits in doing so. They create a delusion for themselves because it makes them happy.”

 

[James_S_Saint]

The real issue is not that they don’t genuinely believe, but that they do not believe anything throughout their entire mind.

The real distinction between a holy man and an ordinary man is that the holy man is “whole” in that all he thinks and does are in harmony and agreement. All of his mental “parts” cooperate. The normal man has very many fragmentations in his beliefs and understandings. In a sense part of him totally believes in logic while another part, unable to comprehend logic, knows only what he instinctive desires. Those parts must compete for the man’s authority in exactly the same way that political parties compete for governmental authority.

To say that the man did not genuinely believe in God would be exactly like saying that America did not genuinely believe in God. It all depends on who has the bigger stick at the time.

 

[AndyF]

liquidpele:

A belief in God would demand one hundred percent obsessive devotion, influencing every waking moment of this brief life on earth.

We strive for matured Faith, but we need help in that endeavor. It isn’t either we have it all or we don’t. Our attitude and state of purity help us to receive this grace that matures Faith. Our efforts determine how much more of this grace we receive. Every man has the seed or spark of Faith called conscience regardless of belief or lack thereof. Belief involves aspects of the mystical as well as empirical, so the task is not a simple one. We have a nature that would like us to detract from this goal, and we are tempted by the things of this world. After all is possible to achieve, one will find the remainder is not obtainable in this world.

The old man seems to be overly negative. All appearances show the glass half full, and the challenge is worth it.

AndyF

 

[wanstronian]

I’ve seen it said many times on this forum that a failure to believe in God is a sin. From there, it’s not a huge leap to the idea that, for some people at least, a nominal belief in God is all that is necessary. Actions in support of this belief are not required, just a plain old belief is sufficient to get into heaven.

Realistically, if God does exist, who’s more likely to get into heaven? A lazy, cruel, selfish miser who believes that there is a God, or an atheist who works tirelessly to help others? If the latter, then surely something’s very wrong!

 

[morgantj]

Food for thought I figured I would post for discussion. ​

I needed reinforcements. “Look,” I said, “four billion people believe in some sort of God and free will. They can’t all be wrong.”

“Very few people believe in God,” he replied.

I didn’t see how he could deny the obvious. “Of course they do. Billions of people believe in God.”

The old man leaned toward me, resting a blanketed elbow on the arm of his rocker. “Four billion people say they believe in God, but few genuinely believe. If people believed in God, they would live every minute of their lives in support of that belief. Rich people would give their wealth to the needy. Everyone would be frantic to determine which religion was the true one. No one could be comfortable in the thought that they might have picked the wrong religion and blundered into eternal damnation, or bad reincarnation, or some other unthinkable consequence. People would dedicate their lives to converting others to their religions. “A belief in God would demand one hundred percent obsessive devotion, influencing every waking moment of this brief life on earth. But your four billion so-called believers do not live their lives in that fashion, except for a few. The majority believe in the usefulness of their beliefs—an earthly and practical utility—but they do not believe in the underlying reality.”

I couldn’t believe what I was hearing. “If you asked them, they’d say they believe.”

“They say that they believe because pretending to believe is necessary to get the benefits of religion. They tell other people that they believe and they do believer-like things, like praying and reading holy books. But they don’t do the things that a true believer would do, the things a true believer would have to do. If you believe a truck is coming toward you, you will jump out of the way. That is belief in the reality of the truck. If you tell people you fear the truck but do nothing to get out of the way, that is not belief in the truck. Likewise, it is not belief to say God exists and then continue sinning and hoarding your wealth while innocent people die of starvation. When belief does not control your most important decisions, it is not belief in the underlying reality, it is belief in the usefulness of believing.”

“Are you saying God doesn’t exist?” I asked, trying to get to the point.

“I’m saying that people claim to believe in God, but most don’t literally believe. They only act as though they believe because there are earthly benefits in doing so. They create a delusion for themselves because it makes them happy.”

I agree with the speaker. Many people that believe, believe in belief, more then they really believe in a god. They believe in belief in a god.They believe in the utitlity and benefits of holding a belief. They would rather believe in something, anything, no matter how unrational, then not believe in anything at all.

 

[tonyrey]

I’ve seen it said many times on this forum that a failure to believe in God is a sin.It is a serious error to state that a failure to believe in God is a sin. If a person sincerely believes that God does not exist it would be wrong to pretend or act as if He does.

The Church teaches that our ultimate authority is our conscience.

From there, it’s not a huge leap to the idea that, for some people at least, a nominal belief in God is all that is necessary. Actions in support of this belief are not required, just a plain old belief is sufficient to get into heaven.

That amounts to absurd superstition.
Realistically, if God does exist, who’s more likely to get into heaven? A lazy, cruel, selfish miser who believes that there is a God, or an atheist who works tirelessly to help others? If the latter, then surely something’s very wrong! You have been anticipated by denunciation of the Pharisees by Jesus - and the parable of the Good Samaritan.

 

[tonyrey]

                                 *I've seen it said many times on this forum that a failure to believe in God is a sin.It is a serious error to state that a failure to believe in God is a sin. If a person sincerely believes that God does not exist it would be wrong to pretend or act as if He does.*

                              The Church teaches that our ultimate authority is our conscience.

From there, it’s not a huge leap to the idea that, for some people at least, a nominal belief in God is all that is necessary. Actions in support of this belief are not required, just a plain old belief is sufficient to get into heaven.

That amounts to absurd superstition.

Realistically, if God does exist, who’s more likely to get into heaven? A lazy, cruel, selfish miser who believes that there is a God, or an atheist who works tirelessly to help others? If the latter, then surely something’s very wrong!

You have been anticipated by the denunciation of the Pharisees by Jesus - and the parable of the Good Samaritan.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Food for thought I figured I would post for discussion. ​

…But they don’t do the things that a true believer would do, the things a true believer would have to do. If you believe a truck is coming toward you, you will jump out of the way. That is belief in the reality of the truck. If you tell people you fear the truck but do nothing to get out of the way, that is not belief in the truck. Likewise, it is not belief to say God exists and then continue sinning and hoarding your wealth while innocent people die of starvation. When belief does not control your most important decisions, it is not belief in the underlying reality, it is belief in the usefulness of believing.”

“Are you saying God doesn’t exist?” I asked, trying to get to the point.

“I’m saying that people claim to believe in God, but most don’t literally believe. They only act as though they believe because there are earthly benefits in doing so. They create a delusion for themselves because it makes them happy.”

Arguments of this sort are the most disingenuous, particularly as it regards Christianity, specifically as it regards Catholism. Two extreme examples illustrate the insincerity and illogical position of the non-beleivers using this argunment. The examples are Usama bin Laden and Mother Teresa; both could arguably be said to fit the ‘genuine belief’ of the OP to their respective religions and to the unbeliever, unless everyone claiming that particular faith lives it to the extent of those examples they are deemed to be false making the overall beliefs false.

Is God a truck, wreckless and purposely trying to kill people and your only option is to jump out of the way proving your disbelief or staying put and getting run over proving your faith? Or is the non-believer assuming the believer being faced with the god-truck bearing down on them is required to stay put having faith that the god-truck will somehow not do them harm because they have the extreme faith required of the non-beleiver to prove the existence of God?

God is not the truck or the person driving it. Belief in God in not belief that the truck won’t harm you as it comes toward you just because you believe in God. The old man in the OP suggests those who beleive in God do so only out of a self-interested delusion. I would ask the old man if he thinks lying is appropriate to his personal philosophy. If he said no, but admitted to lying for one reason or other in his life I would say he has no belief in himself and is as false as those he calls false who believe in God.

The non-believers insist a believer be perfect by claiming faith or be false, but not themselves for claiming no faith and still being false by nature of being human. A right belief in God does not remove the human condition of tempation to sin and giving into it, it just helps get through the difficult times and do better than you would unassisted.

 

[Eucharisted]

Living faith is true faith. A dead faith, faith without love, is a false faith.

 

[reggieM]

This was a good post by liquidpele – searching for an explanation.

The premise was clearly stated:

“Look,” I said, “four billion people believe in some sort of God and free will. They can’t all be wrong.”

That is clear and logical. How could that many people be totally wrong? How could anyone judge them all without knowing them also? Even if we didn’t know if they were right or wrong in their belief, what explanation is there for so many people – some very intelligent and accomplished – who all believe in some sort of God? (The question of free-will is even more significant because every nation on earth builds judicial and educational systems assuming that humans have free-will). How is this possible?

What kind of explanation could there be? The usual attempts are that all of those people are deceived or are lying.

“Very few people believe in God,” he replied.

This is presented as the explanation. People have either deceived themselves, or they’re insincere in their belief.

I didn’t see how he could deny the obvious. “Of course they do. Billions of people believe in God.”

Your judgement was quite good here – how could he make a sweeping claim like that, denying the obvious evidence of billions of people who do believe?

Four billion people say they believe in God, but few genuinely believe.

This is a very cynical view of humanity, but aside from that, how would he know this?
The proof he gives is by first, creating a God that people have to believe in.
Second, he creates rules that his God requires of all believers (those rules and understandings are not in line with Catholic belief – but of his own).
Third, he says that people do not fulfill the rules he made up for the god he made up.

Interestingly, some of his version of God is very similar to Catholicism. He says that people would do various things – like give their wealth (how much?) to the needy.

He says basically that sin would cease – there would be no greed and no indifference.

“They say that they believe because pretending to believe is necessary to get the benefits of religion.

This again is the cynical view of humanity. Billions believe in God, attend religious worship, participate in their faith communities, give what they can to charity, seek for spiritual growth and in moral betterment – why? Because they’re “pretending to believe”. Supposedly, this is all a show. If that many people are essentially lying to themselves and others, how could we trust the testimony of anyone on other matters?

But they don’t do the things that a true believer would do, the things a true believer would have to do.

If he is saying that believers should live even better lives than they do, or that there is too much of a carefree attitude towards the reverence that God deserves - that is an excellent and important point. All believers do need that criticism (and the best will gladly accept the correction). But belief does not confer an immediate and total moral-overhaul on a person (in the Catholic view). Belief transforms the inner life by giving light to the mind – a vision, so to speak, of the love of God for us. But after that, it takes steady, consistent effort for a lifetime in order to become a saint, for example.

But most importantly, it’s not right to claim that everyone is acting under the wrong motives. Far better to look at the highest examples of the Catholic Faith. Father Damien of Molokai, for example, who sacrificed his life to live in a leper colony and serve the dying people there. Cynics tried to claim that he had some ulterior motive also – but that’s just an extreme bad faith argument. He died of leprosy himself. It doesn’t follow.

“I’m saying that people claim to believe in God, but most don’t literally believe. They only act as though they believe because there are earthly benefits in doing so. They create a delusion for themselves because it makes them happy.”

So here again – that is a very bold claim and the explanation comes down to “they are deluded”.
It’s a bold because he’s claiming he knows the inner soul, truth and awareness of “most” of the 4 billion belivers. He is judging their motives – even though, externally, “they act as though they believe”.

That makes it even worse. For example, even if a person actually did everything that he wants to see (giving wealth to the poor, striving to convert everyone, living sleepless nights worrying about their faith) – he says that they’re “only acting as though they believe” but they really don’t.

This is prejudging everyone and claiming to know their inner motives. But that is simply impossible. Only God can judge at that level of insight.

So, as I see it, this is a very bitter reply. It’s not open to the reality of sincere people who believe in God. It’s a close-minded approach – claiming that they’re deluded.

And what does that say about the gentleman making these sweeping judgements on his fellow humans? How could he possibly know this information about billions of believers?

The most reasonable conclusion for an atheist to arrive at is that he does not know how so many could claim and practice belief in God. It is unreasonable to claim that not one of them has solid grounds for that belief. Therefore, an atheist should simply say that it is very possible that God does exist. Many intelligent people claim to have experienced or recognized God (through prayer, reflection, study, beauty, etc). Some have claimed direct revelations.

Something like this seems to be a calm, rational view that an atheist could take:

“While I personally do not believe that God exists, given that so many trustworthy and intelligent people do sincerely believe in God, I can recognize that there must be a likelihood that there is a God and that He has communicated to people in ways that I have not recognized for myself.”

But simply claiming that everyone is pretending to believe and is otherwise deluded is very embittered and negative towards others.

 

[liquidpele]

This was a good post by liquidpele – searching for an explanation.

I’m not sure if you were implying it in your post, but just to clarify this was not a story that involved me.

 

[reggieM]

Realistically, if God does exist, who’s more likely to get into heaven? A lazy, cruel, selfish miser who believes that there is a God, or an atheist who works tirelessly to help others? If the latter, then surely something’s very wrong!

It’s an excellent question and something believers and non-believers should reflect on. You might have heard that it is a sin to refuse to believe in and worship God, but some will go farther and say virtually all that is required is that a person “believe that God exists”.

That is sort of like the Protestant view of *sola fide *-- faith alone is necessary. But that leads to the contradictions that you spell out. What good is claiming to believe when your behavior is very bad?

In the Catholic world we have to work to overcome our sinfulness and even our bad tendencies or habits. We can’t just say that they don’t count as long as we’re believers.

The need to thank and worship God is something that is very important. It means that the motives and directions are towards God who is loving goodness and fulfillment of being.

If we fail to seek God sincerely, then this is turning away from the highest aim. Other actions may be good, but they’re of lesser priority. We receive many gifts from God – the gift of life itself, so it’s essential to thank God and honor Him first, and then go out to do good works.

 

[reggieM]

I’m not sure if you were implying it in your post, but just to clarify this was not a story that involved me.

Ooops. I did think that … it sounded like you were reporting on something that happened to you. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[wanstronian]

The Church teaches that our ultimate authority is our conscience.

Oooh, careful with your quotes there! Your post attributed comments to me that I didn’t make!

That amounts to absurd superstition.

It’s just a hypothesis. I’m not claiming that’s what all - or even many - theists think.

You have been anticipated by the denunciation of the Pharisees by Jesus - and the parable of the Good Samaritan.

Maybe I have - that doesn’t make the point any less valid, does it?

 

[tonyrey]

                           **tonyrey**                     
             *The Church teaches that our ultimate authority is our conscience.*

Oooh, careful with your quotes there! Your post attributed comments to me that I didn’t make!

I’m confused. Which post?

*That amounts to absurd superstition. *
It’s just a hypothesis. I’m not claiming that’s what all - or even many - theists think.

Thank goodness for that!

*You have been anticipated by the denunciation of the Pharisees by Jesus - and the parable of the Good Samaritan. *
Maybe I have - that doesn’t make the point any less valid, does it?

Great minds think alike!

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Food for thought I figured I would post for discussion. ​

I needed reinforcements. “Look,” I said, “four billion people believe in some sort of God and free will. They can’t all be wrong.”

“Very few people believe in God,” he replied.

I didn’t see how he could deny the obvious. “Of course they do. Billions of people believe in God.”

The old man leaned toward me, resting a blanketed elbow on the arm of his rocker. “Four billion people say they believe in God, but few genuinely believe. If people believed in God, they would live every minute of their lives in support of that belief. Rich people would give their wealth to the needy. Everyone would be frantic to determine which religion was the true one. No one could be comfortable in the thought that they might have picked the wrong religion and blundered into eternal damnation, or bad reincarnation, or some other unthinkable consequence. People would dedicate their lives to converting others to their religions. “A belief in God would demand one hundred percent obsessive devotion, influencing every waking moment of this brief life on earth. But your four billion so-called believers do not live their lives in that fashion, except for a few. The majority believe in the usefulness of their beliefs—an earthly and practical utility—but they do not believe in the underlying reality.”

I couldn’t believe what I was hearing. “If you asked them, they’d say they believe.”

“They say that they believe because pretending to believe is necessary to get the benefits of religion. They tell other people that they believe and they do believer-like things, like praying and reading holy books. But they don’t do the things that a true believer would do, the things a true believer would have to do. If you believe a truck is coming toward you, you will jump out of the way. That is belief in the reality of the truck. If you tell people you fear the truck but do nothing to get out of the way, that is not belief in the truck. Likewise, it is not belief to say God exists and then continue sinning and hoarding your wealth while innocent people die of starvation. When belief does not control your most important decisions, it is not belief in the underlying reality, it is belief in the usefulness of believing.”

“Are you saying God doesn’t exist?” I asked, trying to get to the point.

“I’m saying that people claim to believe in God, but most don’t literally believe. They only act as though they believe because there are earthly benefits in doing so. They create a delusion for themselves because it makes them happy.”

Excellent food for thought, Pele! There are some Christians who believe with their whole lives, and I pray that you might get to know them.

As far as I am concerned, the really lukewarm Christians would be better off as pagans. Then the world might see the sincerity of the remaining Christians, and come to believe.

Years ago, by the way, Kierkegaard wrote something quite similar in his “Attack on Christendom.”

 

[wanstronian]

I’m confused. Which post?

Number 6. No biggie.

 

[Fran65]

The simple answer to this argument is that we (Catholics) are not all capable of becoming Saints. That is because we are all sinful. Some without doubt are called to Sainthood, and have the strength and grace to achieve it. That is a great thing and shows what could be achieved. The majority of us however, are too frail, selfish, greedy and doubting to attempt it.

I enjoy watching tennis. I can’t play because of my heart condition, but when I did I knew that with practice and dedication I could have been a much better player. I watched Graf, Henin, Clijsters and wondered whether I could ever have been as a good. I was too lazy, too caught up in other things and too doubting to attempt it. The fact that I didn’t attempt it doesn’t mean that I didn’t really enjoy tennis or didn’t think I could. It didn’t mean that the possibility of being a great tennis player wasn’t there.

That is why we need salvation. If we were all capable of Sainthood and the perfect love of God then the sacrifice that Jesus made would not be necessary. God knows that we are imperfect, God knows that often we do less than our best, but God loves us anyway and has provided a way back to Him through Jesus.

The old man demands that all those who believe in God be Saints. That is not possible given our human, fallen nature.

 

[liquidpele]

The simple answer to this argument is that we (Catholics) are not all capable of becoming Saints. That is because we are all sinful. Some without doubt are called to Sainthood, and have the strength and grace to achieve it. That is a great thing and shows what could be achieved. The majority of us however, are too frail, selfish, greedy and doubting to attempt it.

I enjoy watching tennis. I can’t play because of my heart condition, but when I did I knew that with practice and dedication I could have been a much better player. I watched Graf, Henin, Clijsters and wondered whether I could ever have been as a good. I was too lazy, too caught up in other things and too doubting to attempt it. The fact that I didn’t attempt it doesn’t mean that I didn’t really enjoy tennis or didn’t think I could. It didn’t mean that the possibility of being a great tennis player wasn’t there.

That is why we need salvation. If we were all capable of Sainthood and the perfect love of God then the sacrifice that Jesus made would not be necessary. God knows that we are imperfect, God knows that often we do less than our best, but God loves us anyway and has provided a way back to Him through Jesus.

The old man demands that all those who believe in God be Saints. That is not possible given our human, fallen nature.

The point was that people should be saints, the point was that most religious people don’t seem to really take their religion as seriously as one would expect given the magnificence of what it claims. To use your analogy, I wouldn’t expect everyone to be as good as Graf, but I would expect them to follow the games and understand the rules and history of the game like their eternal soul depended on it.

 

[liquidpele]

The point was that people should be saints, the point was that most religious people don’t seem to really take their religion as seriously as one would expect given the magnificence of what it claims. To use your analogy, I wouldn’t expect everyone to be as good as Graf, but I would expect them to follow the games and understand the rules and history of the game like their eternal soul depended on it.

Sigh… that first thing should have read “The point was NOT that people should be saints”