(Genuine question) Is teaching children about hell abuse?

[stpurl]

Oh come on Freddy. We Catholic parents are not the ones who say “Grandma is in hell”. What you’re doing is attempting to make it ‘our fault’ that little Jane or Justin THINK ‘Grandma’s in hell’.

You yourself learned about hell and you had no problems. Why wouldn’t the vast majority of children have the same ‘no problem’ experience you did?

 

[MNathaniel]

If you, Freddy and others, can give me any guaranteed examples, and you can make them as secular as you please, of children taught of a possible danger where no child ever misunderstands or becomes worried or confused then do enlighten the rest of humanity so we can follow that oh-so-wise method.

1000x this, and kudos to you for being way more patient and helpful in your phrasing than me.

I’m also reminded of this David Mitchell story from Would I Lie to You?

 

[Emily3]

Thank you, I think that did clarify the drama

 

[Emily3]

That’s a perfect response

 

[Maragal]

I know that children can be traumatised by teaching about Hell. Ive heard people explain the nightmates, the anxiety, becoming non functional adults because how it was explained to them.

I think its enough for a young child to learn “God always wants us to love him. Sadly, some people might not choose to, and therefore separate themselves from Him forever. But if we choose to love Him, we will be with Him forever. And when we make mistakes, we ask forgiveness, and He still loves us. And we pray that everybody comes to love God and we know He wants us all home with Him.” Always start with love and mercy!

I do think its abusive to fill children with fear, and not ultimately healthy for their relationship with God.

 

[Freddy]

Oh come on Freddy. We Catholic parents are not the ones who say “Grandma is in hell”. What you’re doing is attempting to make it ‘our fault’ that little Jane or Justin THINK ‘Grandma’s in hell’.

You yourself learned about hell and you had no problems. Why wouldn’t the vast majority of children have the same ‘no problem’ experience you did?

Why so defensive? I’m asking genuine questions here. There have been no accusations.

 

[stpurl]

Why so quick to accuse others of being defensive, Freddy?

 

[Freddy]

Why so quick to accuse others of being defensive, Freddy?

Because I’m not being accusatory…

 

[stpurl]

I am not accusing you of anything. I am querying you. Why did you raise such concerns about ‘grandma in hell’ when by your own report, you had no problems learning about hell yourself? That is not ‘defensive’, that’s a genuine query.

 

[Beryllos]

@Freddy, no matter what all 'em other people say, you’re all right.

As you can see, it’s not easy being a Catholic. For Pete’s sake, my teenage son has asked me lately if I think my daughter is going to hell. I appreciate your thought-provoking contributions to the discussion.

 

[AlNg]

If she would like to now delve into your explicitly non-Catholic (name removed by moderator)ut, that’s up to her.

welcome everybody to a CAF thread devolving into anti-Catholic nonsense,

I thought that the following was Catholic teaching as it is taken from a Catholic tract:

“The doctrine of hell is so frightening that numerous heretical sects end up denying the reality of an eternal hell. …But the eternal nature of hell is stressed in the New Testament. For example, in Mark 9:47–48 Jesus warns us, “t is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.” And in Revelation 14:11, we read: “And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”…Hell is not just a theoretical possibility. Jesus warns us that real people go there….The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: “The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, ‘eternal fire.’…
“If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment” ( Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).

“But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’” (ibid., 17:7)…"

 

[MNathaniel]

This thread is about, and I quote, “teaching children”.

It is irrelevant to this topic to just smack a catechism teaching on the table.

What is in the catechism about hell is true.

And at the same time, what is in police reports about what happens to many kidnapped children, is also true.

Children need to be fed truth in small, manageable bites. Some burdens and gory details are too heavy for children.

It is enough for a child to know that they shouldn’t get into a car with a stranger because the stranger might take them away from mommy and daddy. The child doesn’t have to be (even, shouldn’t be) burdened with all the gory details of what rape is.

It may be that some children find out (perhaps by overhearing adults in another room) the detailed truth about what happens to some kidnapped children, and these children are traumatized by that premature revelation. It doesn’t make the detailed truth untrue, but it does make it difficult that they found out the detailed truth too soon.

It is not child abuse to tell children the bare bones minimum information they need to avoid getting into a stranger’s van. It would actually be child abuse (neglect) to not tell them what is necessary to guide their behaviour away from that. But at the same time, that doesn’t make it appropriate to sit down a five year old and tell them the detailed truth about the specific physical horrors that may await them if they get into that van.

I honestly don’t know what point you’re trying to make, in this thread about teaching children. As if there’s some false choice between telling children nothing about hell at all, or telling them the scariest possible thing.

It’s not child abuse to tell a child not to get in a van with strangers because the strangers might take them away. Prudently limiting an explanation is not the same as denying the more detailed truth that only adults are able to deal with. If a child accidentally figures out the more detailed truth, perhaps because they get curious and investigate further after being told the limited truth, that’s not the fault of adults who did the responsible thing of telling them the more limited truth. That’s just an unfortunate event.

 

[Freddy]

It may be that some children find out (perhaps by overhearing adults in another room) the detailed truth about what happens…

…to people in hell. Maybe also talking with other kids (and, wouldn’t you know it, kids can be cruel). Maybe through popular media. Too much information at an early age (about what you think is the case) is not good. But too little information allows for a lot of imaginative detail.

I have never met a single person who was scared of hell. And it couldn’t be a worse fate. And it’s for eternity! If anyone thought for a single second that there was a chance they may end up there, they wouldn’t be able to function. They would be rigid with fear.

But kids? They get upset if they think Santa might miss them out because they have been naughty.

 

[MNathaniel]

…to people in hell. Maybe also talking with other kids (and, wouldn’t you know it, kids can be cruel). Maybe through popular media. Too much information at an early age (about what you think is the case) is not good. But too little information allows for a lot of imaginative detail.

I have never met a single person who was scared of hell. And it couldn’t be a worse fate. And it’s for eternity! If anyone thought for a single second that there was a chance they may end up there, they wouldn’t be able to function. They would be rigid with fear.

But kids? They get upset if they think Santa might miss them out because they have been naughty.

I literally don’t know what your point is, commenting in this thread.

Could you summarize the point you’re trying to make?

Are you trying to answer the OP something? Are you trying to answer me something? What bottom line do you want me to walk away from this thread with?

Do you disagree with me about something? I literally can’t even tell if that is true. I’m not exaggerating. I literally don’t know what takeaway you want me to take away from your ‘replies’ to my comments.

If I had a gun to my head right now, I’d have to guess that you seem to disagree with me about something? Because something about your commenting tone seems as if you’re not trying to communicate agreement? But if I had to guess at what takeaway you actually want me to take away, I would end up wordless and shot in the head. I honestly, to my core, don’t know what you want to communicate by your words here.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

…to people in hell. Maybe also talking with other kids (and, wouldn’t you know it, kids can be cruel). Maybe through popular media. Too much information at an early age (about what you think is the case) is not good. But too little information allows for a lot of imaginative detail.

I have never met a single person who was scared of hell. And it couldn’t be a worse fate. And it’s for eternity! If anyone thought for a single second that there was a chance they may end up there, they wouldn’t be able to function. They would be rigid with fear.

But kids? They get upset if they think Santa might miss them out because they have been naughty.

I literally don’t know what your point is, commenting in this thread.

I’m pointing out that kids can be scared of hell how ever you explain it to them. And not just from a personal position. And you’ve spent more time wondering about what I’ve posted than I have spent posting it.

 

[MNathaniel]

I’m pointing out that kids can be scared of hell how ever you explain it to them. And not just from a personal position. And you’ve spent more time wondering about what I’ve posted than I have spent posting it.

So… okay, you are agreeing with me?

I guess I’ll just leave it there, then.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

I’m pointing out that kids can be scared of hell how ever you explain it to them. And not just from a personal position. And you’ve spent more time wondering about what I’ve posted than I have spent posting it.

So… okay, you are agreeing with me?

If you believe that it’s an incredibly difficult concept for mature minds to comprehend and that everyone has different ideas as to what it entails and however you explain it to a child, popular conceptions of hellfire and damnation are rife and will colour that child’s understanding of it and in not a few cases will frighten the kid, not just for his personal well being but for those whom he or she loves, especially those recently departed and that, in passsing, no adult appears to worry about it to any extent…then yes. I am agreeing with you.

 

[Motherwit]

This was Pope St JPII’s explanation of hell.

http://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/audiences/1999/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_28071999.html

In a theological sense however, hell is something else: it is the ultimate consequence of sin itself, which turns against the person who committed it. It is the state of those who definitively reject the Father’s mercy, even at the last moment of their life.

… The images of hell that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted. They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy. This is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church summarizes the truths of faith on this subject: “To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called ‘hell’” (n. 1033).

…The thought of hell — and even less the improper use of biblical images — must not create anxiety or despair, but is a necessary and healthy reminder of freedom within the proclamation that the risen Jesus has conquered Satan, giving us the Spirit of God who makes us cry “Abba, Father!” ( Rm 8:15; Gal 4:6).

 

[MNathaniel]

If you believe that it’s an incredibly difficult concept for mature minds to comprehend and that everyone has different ideas as to what it entails and however you explain it to a child, popular conceptions of hellfire and damnation are rife and will colour that child’s understanding of it and in not a few cases will frighten the kid, not just for his personal well being but for those whom he or she loves, especially those recently departed and that, in passsing, no adult appears to worry about it to any extent…then yes. I am agreeing with you.

Freddy, with respect… I’m not seeing an invitation into conversation here. Like, it doesn’t look like you’re making any kind of a specific ‘point’ that you are inviting someone to either agree or disagree with? You’re more making loose and generally agreeable statements about hell being a “difficult concept”, and the most contentious thing you say is that “no adult appears to worry about [hell] to any extent”… but I assume that if you really sat down and thought about it a minute, you would be able to think of counter-examples to the latter for yourself, so you don’t actually need me to role-play that part of the conversation. And it wouldn’t be a particularly meaningful statement (from my perspective) for me to point out that some adults do in fact appear to worry about hell to a significant extent (e.g. self-flagellating and throwing themselves in thorn bushes to mortify the flesh, and attending Confession in tears, etc). It’d just be describing details of the world around us. Sort of like describing the weather. And maybe I’m not enough of a ‘discuss the weather’ person to track how such a conversation is meant to unfold.

So I hope you won’t be bothered if I stop trying to figure out how to turn this into a conversation. I hope you’re having a lovely day in the sunny down under! For further discussion of the weather (if that’s what this thread now is), I might leave it to people who understand the purpose of those weather-based conversations better.

 

[Freddy]

It’s a sunny 20 degrees here. Commiserations to all those in northern climes…

Y’all have a nice day.