Geocentric theorem

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first of all i would like to say hi to everyone. i haven’t been on in a while so hello to you all! 🙂

in my history class today, we learned an indepth look at the protestant reformation and pre protestant reformation, blubonic plague etc. when talking about why the reformation happened my teacher recited that lack of faith was the reason why, but also being the geocentric therom. the catholic church supported this. this is obviously not true because we know that the sun is the center of the universe. so 1. does the bible have any say on this. 2. why did the church support it 3. how does this make the church true?
 
first of all i would like to say hi to everyone. i haven’t been on in a while so hello to you all! 🙂

in my history class today, we learned an indepth look at the protestant reformation and pre protestant reformation, blubonic plague etc. when talking about why the reformation happened my teacher recited that lack of faith was the reason why, but also being the geocentric therom. the catholic church supported this. this is obviously not true because we know that the sun is the center of the universe. so 1. does the bible have any say on this. 2. why did the church support it 3. how does this make the church true?
hi. 👋

"Galileo came to Rome to see Pope Paul V (1605-1621). The pope, weary of controversy, turned the matter over to the Holy Office, which issued a condemnation of Galileo’s theory in 1616. Things returned to relative quiet for a time, until Galileo forced another showdown.

At Galileo’s request, Cardinal Robert Bellarmine, a Jesuit—one of the most important Catholic theologians of the day—issued a certificate that, although it forbade Galileo to hold or defend the heliocentric theory, did not prevent him from conjecturing it. When Galileo met with the new pope, Urban VIII, in 1623, he received permission from his longtime friend to write a work on heliocentrism, but the new pontiff cautioned him not to advocate the new position, only to present arguments for and against it. When Galileo wrote the Dialogue on the Two World Systems, he used an argument the pope had offered, and placed it in the mouth of his character Simplicio. Galileo, perhaps inadvertently, made fun of the pope, a result that could only have disastrous consequences. Urban felt mocked and could not believe how his friend could disgrace him publicly. Galileo had mocked the very person he needed as a benefactor. He also alienated his long-time supporters, the Jesuits, with attacks on one of their astronomers. The result was the infamous trial, which is still heralded as the final separation of science and religion.


It is a good thing that the Church did not rush to embrace Galileo’s views, because it turned out that his ideas were not entirely correct, either. Galileo believed that the sun was not just the fixed center of the solar system but the fixed center of the universe. We now know that the sun is not the center of the universe and that it does move—it simply orbits the center of the galaxy rather than the earth.

As more recent science has shown, both Galileo and his opponents were partly right and partly wrong. Galileo was right in asserting the mobility of the earth and wrong in asserting the immobility of the sun. His opponents were right in asserting the mobility of the sun and wrong in asserting the immobility of the earth.

Had the Catholic Church rushed to endorse Galileo’s views—and there were many in the Church who were quite favorable to them—the Church would have embraced what modern science has disproved."

taken from here:

catholic.com/library/galileo_controversy.asp

go down to the last part to read about the issue of infallibility.

i don’t really have anything to add, but wanted to provide the Church’s POV.
 
the catholic church supported this. this is obviously not true because we know that the sun is the center of the universe. so 1. does the bible have any say on this. 2. why did the church support it 3. how does this make the church true?
Hi

I think it is a case of firstly not preserving the originaly revealed Word in the original languabe. Secondly the translators could not translate it correctly as they and the Church could not understand it correctly.

Science is the Work of God and Revealed-Books or Religion is the Word of God; since both are done by GodAllahYHWH, there cannot be any difference in them logically.

Thanks
 
thank you jen fl, that was very kind of you to take your time to post that. but there is one thing i dont understand. How about the bible? what is its say on the earth? is it the center? isn’t this wrong if it says so?
 
well the physics of it all goes far :hypno: beyond my understanding as all one has to do is read through this thread to see for themselves:

catholic-forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=875

but, heliocentrism is only a hypothesis (albeit a widely accepted one)…but regardless, science has not proven either geocentrism or heliocentrism.
 
also, i am not certain that the Church taught geocentricism as an infallible doctrine. the Church can only speak infallibly on issues concerning faith and morals.

i could be wrong (will have to investigate more) but the scripture mentioning the earth being fixed could be figurative to demonstrate that God has made man the most important of creatures in the universe.
 
you are welcome, although i am not sure i did that much.

as usual the depths one can uncover via any Catholic topic are endless!

best wishes,
jen
 
"Galileo came to Rome to see Pope Paul V (1605-1621). The pope, weary of controversy, turned the matter over to the Holy Office, which issued a condemnation of Galileo’s theory in 1616. Things returned to relative quiet for a time, until Galileo forced another showdown. …

taken from here:

catholic.com/library/galileo_controversy.asp

go down to the last part to read about the issue of infallibility.

i don’t really have anything to add, but wanted to provide the Church’s POV.
You left out the most important part of your own link:

"Galileo could have safely proposed heliocentricity as a theory or a method to more simply account for the planets’ motions. His problem arose when he stopped proposing it as a scientific theory and began proclaiming it as truth, though there was no conclusive proof of it at the time. Even so, Galileo would not have been in so much trouble if he had chosen to stay within the realm of science and out of the realm of theology. But, despite his friends’ warnings, he insisted on moving the debate onto theological grounds.

"In 1614, Galileo felt compelled to answer the charge that this ‘new science’ was contrary to certain Scripture passages. His opponents pointed to Bible passages with statements like, ‘And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed . . .’ (Josh. 10:13). This is not an isolated occurrence. Psalms 93 and 104 and Ecclesiastes 1:5 also speak of celestial motion and terrestrial stability. A literalistic reading of these passages would have to be abandoned if the heliocentric theory were adopted. Yet this should not have posed a problem. As Augustine put it, ‘One does not read in the Gospel that the Lord said: “I will send you the Paraclete who will teach you about the course of the sun and moon.” For he willed to make them Christians, not mathematicians.’ Following Augustine’s example, Galileo urged caution in not interpreting these biblical statements too literally.

"Unfortunately, throughout Church history there have been those who insist on reading the Bible in a more literal sense than it was intended. They fail to appreciate, for example, instances in which Scripture uses what is called ‘phenomenological’ language—that is, the language of appearances. Just as we today speak of the sun rising and setting to cause day and night, rather than the earth turning, so did the ancients. From an earthbound perspective, the sun does appear to rise and appear to set, and the earth appears to be immobile. When we describe these things according to their appearances, we are using phenomenological language.

"The phenomenological language concerning the motion of the heavens and the non-motion of the earth is obvious to us today, but was less so in previous centuries. Scripture scholars of the past were willing to consider whether particular statements were to be taken literally or phenomenologically, but they did not like being told by a non-Scripture scholar, such as Galileo, that the words of the sacred page must be taken in a particular sense.

"During this period, personal interpretation of Scripture was a sensitive subject. In the early 1600s, the Church had just been through the Reformation experience, and one of the chief quarrels with Protestants was over individual interpretation of the Bible.

“Theologians were not prepared to entertain the heliocentric theory based on a layman’s interpretation. Yet Galileo insisted on moving the debate into a theological realm.There is little question that if Galileo had kept the discussion within the accepted boundaries of astronomy (i.e., predicting planetary motions) and had not claimed physical truth for the heliocentric theory, the issue would not have escalated to the point it did. After all, he had not proved the new theory beyond reasonable doubt.” [Emphasis added]
 
You left out the most important part of your own link:

"Galileo could have safely proposed heliocentricity as a theory or a method to more simply account for the planets’ motions. His problem arose when he stopped proposing it as a scientific theory and began proclaiming it as truth, though there was no conclusive proof of it at the time. Even so, Galileo would not have been in so much trouble if he had chosen to stay within the realm of science and out of the realm of theology. But, despite his friends’ warnings, he insisted on moving the debate onto theological grounds.

"In 1614, Galileo felt compelled to answer the charge that this ‘new science’ was contrary to certain Scripture passages. His opponents pointed to Bible passages with statements like, ‘And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed . . .’ (Josh. 10:13). This is not an isolated occurrence. Psalms 93 and 104 and Ecclesiastes 1:5 also speak of celestial motion and terrestrial stability. A literalistic reading of these passages would have to be abandoned if the heliocentric theory were adopted. Yet this should not have posed a problem. As Augustine put it, ‘One does not read in the Gospel that the Lord said: “I will send you the Paraclete who will teach you about the course of the sun and moon.” For he willed to make them Christians, not mathematicians.’ Following Augustine’s example, Galileo urged caution in not interpreting these biblical statements too literally.

"Unfortunately, throughout Church history there have been those who insist on reading the Bible in a more literal sense than it was intended. They fail to appreciate, for example, instances in which Scripture uses what is called ‘phenomenological’ language—that is, the language of appearances. Just as we today speak of the sun rising and setting to cause day and night, rather than the earth turning, so did the ancients. From an earthbound perspective, the sun does appear to rise and appear to set, and the earth appears to be immobile. When we describe these things according to their appearances, we are using phenomenological language.

"The phenomenological language concerning the motion of the heavens and the non-motion of the earth is obvious to us today, but was less so in previous centuries. Scripture scholars of the past were willing to consider whether particular statements were to be taken literally or phenomenologically, but they did not like being told by a non-Scripture scholar, such as Galileo, that the words of the sacred page must be taken in a particular sense.

"During this period, personal interpretation of Scripture was a sensitive subject. In the early 1600s, the Church had just been through the Reformation experience, and one of the chief quarrels with Protestants was over individual interpretation of the Bible.

“Theologians were not prepared to entertain the heliocentric theory based on a layman’s interpretation. Yet Galileo insisted on moving the debate into a theological realm.There is little question that if Galileo had kept the discussion within the accepted boundaries of astronomy (i.e., predicting planetary motions) and had not claimed physical truth for the heliocentric theory, the issue would not have escalated to the point it did. After all, he had not proved the new theory beyond reasonable doubt.” [Emphasis added]
good point. :tiphat: thank you for highlighting that.
 
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