Geocentric Universe?

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Um… whats neo-Darwinism? what was wrong with ‘original’ Darwinism, was it not a scientic theory overwhelmingly supported by evidence etc…
Neo-Darwinism (or the Modern Synthesis or the Synthetic Theory) is the foundational theory of modern biology. It is the synthesis of Darwinian natural selection with Mendelian genetics. Darwin showed the importance of natural selection acting on variation as the origin of species. However he had no idea what caused variation from one generation to another, and his ideas about the source of variation were wrong. In the 1930s and 1940s, a set of biologists including JBS Haldane, Ronald Fisher, Sewall Wright, Theodesius Dobzhansky, Ernst Mayr, George Gaylord Simpson and others combined genetic theory and natural selection to create the neo-Darwinian or synthetic theory that is consistent both with the evidence and with population biology amd mathematical genetics. This was further developed by others like Bill Hamilton, Motoo Kimura, Stephen Gould and so on.

Alec
evolutionpages.com/intro_evolution.htm
 
There were a couple questions that people still had here which I notice Robert Sungenis covered in his review of a Catholic Answers article on Galileo. If anyone is interested, or if they’re going to try to rebut Geocentrism :rolleyes:, then they should at least read what their opponents are saying, instead of relying on like-minded sources, who never seem to address the points made. From the article:
So, if you want evidence, I can give you reams of evidence. There is over 1000 pages of
evidence in our book. The problem is not with the evidence, however. The problem is whether
one’s politically-correct mind will allow one to believe the evidence. As I and Dr. Robert
Bennett painstakingly show (my co-author of the book Galileo Was Wrong: The Church Was
Right
, Volume I, who has a doctorate in Physics with an emphasis on Einstein’s General
Relativity), neither the laws of gravity, aberration, parallax, deflection of falling bodies, nor any
other scientific claim or experiment, proves the earth is in motion. Every presumed proof for
heliocentrism can be equally explained from a geocentric system, since, as modern science itself
has admitted, the same forces and motions will occur if the Earth is rotating in a fixed universe
or the universe is rotating around a fixed Earth. As far as modern science is concerned, there is
no difference between these two models. Ernst Mach, the original mentor of Einstein, said this:
Obviously it matters little if we think of the Earth as turning about on its axis, or if we
view it at rest while the fixed stars revolve around it. Geometrically these are exactly
the same case of a relative rotation of the Earth and the fixed stars with respect to one
another.29 All masses, all velocities, thus all forces are relative. There is no basis for us
to decide between relative and absolute motion….If there are still modern authors who,
through the Newtonian water bucket arguments, allow themselves to be misled into
differentiating between relative and absolute motion, they fail to take into account that
the world system has been given to us only once, but the Ptolemaic and Copernican
views are only our interpretations, but both equally true.30

Since the Bible says it’s good to have two or three witness, let me throw in another two
Ph.D.s in Physics to back up what Fred is saying:
As we have seen, Leibniz and Mach emphasized that the Ptolemaic geocentric system
and the Copernican heliocentric system are equally valid and correct….the Copernican
world view, which is usually seen as being proved to be true by Galileo and
Newton….the gravitational attraction between the sun and the planets, the earth and
other planets do not fall into the sun because they have an acceleration relative to the
fixed stars. The distant matter in the universe exerts a force, –mgamf, on accelerated
planets, keeping them in their annual orbits….In the Ptolemaic system, the earth is
considered to be at rest and without rotation in the center of the universe, while the sun,
other planets and fixed stars rotate around the earth….Now the gravitational attraction
of the sun is balanced by a real gravitational centrifugal force due to the annual rotation
of distant masses around the earth (with a component having a period of one year). In
this way the earth can remain at rest and at an essentially constant distance from the
sun. The diurnal rotation of distant masses around the earth (with a period of one day)
yields a real gravitational centrifugal force flattening the earth at the poles. Foucault’s
pendulum is explained by a real Coriolis force acting on moving masses over the earth’s
surface in the form –2mgvme × ωUe, where vme is the velocity of the test body relative to
the earth and ωUe is the angular rotation of the distant masses around the earth. The
effect of this force will be to keep the plane of oscillation of the pendulum rotating
together with the fixed stars.34
Or how about this simple statement from Arthur Eddington, the very scientist
responsible for promoting Einstein’s theory of Relativity with dubious solar eclipse
photographs in 1919:
The bulge of the Earth’s equator may be attributed indifferently to
the Earth’s rotation or to the outward pull of the centrifugal force
introduced when the Earth is regarded as non-rotating.35
So there you have it, plain as the nose on your face. To put it
simply, Hoyle, Assis, and Eddington are saying that when an
astronomer takes into consideration the trillions upon trillions of stars
surrounding us in the universe, their combined force must be
calculated in order to find the center of mass for the universe. Properly
placed, those trillions of stars will allow an object as small as the Earth to be situated precisely in
that center of mass, and, according to Newton’s own laws in his famous Principia, the center of
mass will remain motionless. In fact, Newton himself suggested the Earth could fill that
position.36 But have you ever seen such evidence admitted by Catholic apologists who are
feverishly working on the Galileo affair to come up with some other reason why the Church
made a “mistake” in condemning heliocentrism? I even had one Catholic tell me that he wasn’t
going to pay any attention to what Hoyle and other scientists have said on this matter. As far as
he was concerned, Galileo was right and the case is closed. Any further investigation into the
matter is, in his words, “only going to embarrass the Church.” What’s really “embarrassing” is to
see close-minded Catholics refuse to examine the scientific evidence, but at the same time claim
that science trumps the Church. As Feyerabend puts it: “It is a pity that the Church of today,
frightened by the universal noise made by the scientific wolves, prefers to howl with them
instead of trying to teach them some manners.”37
 
He claims the laws of gravity do not prove the Earth is in motion. However, we know that two objects always move about their center of mass- unless their is a singularity at the center of the Earth, the center of mass of the Earth and the Sun (or the Earth and the Moon for that matter) would be somewhere that is not the center of the Earth. Thus, the Earth would be in motion.
Unless of course you make the 1/10^231238572439563496759346590348659346503476593476593465093274659 or so assumption that every sub atomic particle is positioned so perfectly that the Earth never moves, and that EVER SINGLE act of randomness that the uncertainty principle allows for is cancelled out with respect to every axis.
 
keep in mind- there are estimated to be 3*10^80 particles greater in size than an electron in the universe. Each would have to positioned perfectly and every motion in each of those particles, including those that function discreetly, would have to cancel out perfectly.
 
keep in mind- there are estimated to be 3*10^80 particles greater in size than an electron in the universe. Each would have to positioned perfectly and every motion in each of those particles, including those that function discreetly, would have to cancel out perfectly.
Read the book! Or simply go back to the gyroscope analogy. Have you ever put a gyroscope into motion? Did you spin it perfectly? Or did it wobble? Well, guess what? The universe wobbles! Of course, heliocentrists say that the earth wobbles, but that is a philosophical view, not a scientific one. But God put the universe in motion around an immobile earth, and once it was in motion the fine tuning doesn’t have to be anywhere near the numbers you mentioned. Even still, the fine tuning of the universe - courtesy of God - that has been measured dwarfs your numbers. And, of course, the wobble of the universe was no accident…
Thus far, even though he is a heliocentrist by preference who is looking for some proof of his system, Hoyle has been fair with his geocentric counterpart. What other avowed heliocentrists ridicule as “absurd,” Hoyle counts as a viable alternative. In fact, we should add here that many pages earlier Hoyle had already suggested to his reader that one of the reasons the stars may follow an epicyclic pattern is due to what …was already known to the Greeks that spring-to-summer-to-autumn differs from autumn-to-winter-to-spring by three days. It was explained by Hipparchus."1068
Since, as Hoyle admits, in the geocentric system the universe rotates around the Earth and carries the sun with it, it follows that both the sun and the stars will form an annual epicyclic path with respect to the Earth. As we suggested earlier, the epicycles may exist because there is a designed imbalance in the distribution of matter in the universe that will subsequently cause a precession or wobble in the rotation, which in turn will help produce the periodic movement that we experience practically on Earth as the four seasons. In this view, the universe is much like a spinning gyroscope that wobbles when it begins to tilt, or when it is disturbed while rotating; or has an additional weight at one point on its circumference.
Galileo Was Wrong: The Church Was Right, Volume I, p.350
 
There were a couple questions that people still had here which I notice Robert Sungenis covered in his review of a Catholic Answers article on Galileo. If anyone is interested, or if they’re going to try to rebut Geocentrism :rolleyes:, then they should at least read what their opponents are saying, instead of relying on like-minded sources, who never seem to address the points made.
Does the Sungenis book cover the fact that parts of the earth move relative to other parts (place tectonics, earthquakes) and that hence all of the earth cannot be at rest relative to the rest of the universe?

If so, does he cover the scientific experiments have been performed to show that those moving parts of the earth are indeed moving? Science should be able to show different results from different parts of the earth’s surface - for example the east and west coasts of Iceland.

I do not want to purchase a book that does not answer this question.

rossum
 
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rossum:
The ultimate truth is that there is no Ultimate Truth
Too bad you can’t see that that statement is a ridiculous contradiction.
You are not the first person to notice my sig. The original source is Mark Siderits, “Thinking on Empty: Madhyamika Anti-Realism and Canons of Rationality” in S Biderman and B.A. Schaufstein, eds, Rationality In Question (1989). Dordrecht: Brill.

I have not read Siderits but saw the quote in a piece on Nagarjuna. The “Madhyamika” in Siderits’ title refers to the religious and philosophical school of Buddhism that Nagarjuna founded. I have seen the same quote again in other places in reference to the Madhyamika and Nagarjuna - it seems quite popular. The quote is intentionally paradoxical; paradox is necessary to remind us that words are insufficient when trying to describe the fundamental nature of reality.

For a philosophical discussion of Nagarjuna and reality see the web article Nagarjuna and the Limits of Thought. The Siderits quote is at the end of section four of the article:

There is, then, no escape. Nagarjuna’s view is contradictory. The contradiction is, clearly a paradox of expressibility. Nagarjuna succeeds in saying the unsayable, just as much as the Wittgenstein of the Tractatus. We can think (and characterize) reality only subject to language, which is conventional, so the ontology of that reality is all conventional. It follows that the conventional objects of reality do not ultimately (non-conventionally) exist. It also follows that nothing we say of them is ultimately true. That is, all things are empty of ultimate existence; and this is their ultimate nature, and is an ultimate truth about them. They hence cannot be thought to have that nature; nor can we say that they do. But we have just done so. As Mark Siderits (1989) has put it, “the ultimate truth is that there is no ultimate truth.”
For a similar approach to the same topic:The emptiness of emptiness is the fact that not even emptiness exists ultimately, that it is also dependent, conventional, nominal, and in the end it is just the everydayness of the everyday. Penetrating to the depths of being, we find ourselves back on the surface of things and so discover that there is nothing, after all, beneath those deceptive surfaces. Moreover, what is deceptive about them is simply the fact that we assume ontological depth lurking just beneath.

Jay Garfield, “Empty words, Buddhist philosophy and cross-cultural interpretation.” OUP 2002.

rossum
 
While my knowledge of physics and cosmology leaves much to be desired, the idea of a geocentric universe seems inherently improbable.

Let me get my head around this. An inhabited planet which is the third planet out from its primary star, located in a spiral arm of one galaxy among trillions of galaxies, is the center of rotation of the entire universe, every object in which rotates around the earth in a fixed 24 hour period.

The universe has a diameter of about 156 billion light years. If the entire universe rotates around the earth, then those galaxies at the far edge of the universe must cover a distance of about 490 billion light years every 24 hours. That is quite a bit in excess of the speed of light. Improbable? I think so.
 
While my knowledge of physics and cosmology leaves much to be desired, the idea of a geocentric universe seems inherently improbable.

Let me get my head around this. An inhabited planet which is the third planet out from its primary star, located in a spiral arm of one galaxy among trillions of galaxies, is the center of rotation of the entire universe, every object in which rotates around the earth in a fixed 24 hour period.

The universe has a diameter of about 156 billion light years. If the entire universe rotates around the earth, then those galaxies at the far edge of the universe must cover a distance of about 490 billion light years every 24 hours. That is quite a bit in excess of the speed of light. Improbable? I think so.
However, if you had grown up being taught that and scientists agreed, you wouldn’t be so skeptical.
 
Read the book! Or simply go back to the gyroscope analogy. Have you ever put a gyroscope into motion? Did you spin it perfectly? Or did it wobble? Well, guess what? The universe wobbles! Of course, heliocentrists say that the earth wobbles, but that is a philosophical view, not a scientific one. But God put the universe in motion around an immobile earth, and once it was in motion the fine tuning doesn’t have to be anywhere near the numbers you mentioned. Even still, the fine tuning of the universe - courtesy of God - that has been measured dwarfs your numbers. And, of course, the wobble of the universe was no accident…
Again, that’s an imperfect analogy. Let’s say the Earth has been at the center of the universe since the beginning of time. There would have to be so many dynamic forces at play. For example, let’s say I throw a ball in the air. The center of mass of the ball-Earth system changes- both objects are pulled towards the center of mass. If the Earth move even slightly, which it would, it is no longer dead center. Gravitational forces would have to compensate with perfect precision for everything- as i type, the center of mass of the “Earth-fingertip” system is in constant flux! I alone am exerting no less than 10 dynamic forces on the Earth, forcing it too move! I just lifted my feet up- more forces! The universe would have a hard enough time keeping the Earth due to my forces alone- and I represent under 10^-(obscenely large number goes here)% of the forces acting on Earth.
 
However, if you had grown up being taught that and scientists agreed, you wouldn’t be so skeptical.
I didn’t see a rebuttal in there. Questioning why he holds his belief does not validate yours.
 
However, if you had grown up being taught that and scientists agreed, you wouldn’t be so skeptical.
Maybe, although having physicists agreeing and teaching that faster than light travel is workable in view of a geocentric universe strikes me as equally improbable!
 
Maybe, although having physicists agreeing and teaching that faster than light travel is workable in view of a geocentric universe strikes me as equally improbable!
All this is based on what we think we now know. Science is provisional. Your kids could have an entirely different world view.
 
All this is based on what we think we now know. Science is provisional. Your kids could have an entirely different world view.
So this is the “but you can’t be 100’% sure” fallacy? I assume you have carried this to it’s logical conclusion and govern your life by Solipsism?
 
The big science paradigms change with the young. So I have no doubt you will probably die believing what you do now.
No doubt. But geocentrism is even older than me!

I would hope to see a new science paradigm; physics hasn’t made much progress in the past quarter century. Perhaps it could change back to geocentrism, but I don’t think I will live to see it.
 
While my knowledge of physics and cosmology leaves much to be desired, the idea of a geocentric universe seems inherently improbable.

Let me get my head around this. An inhabited planet which is the third planet out from its primary star, located in a spiral arm of one galaxy among trillions of galaxies, is the center of rotation of the entire universe, every object in which rotates around the earth in a fixed 24 hour period.

The universe has a diameter of about 156 billion light years. If the entire universe rotates around the earth, then those galaxies at the far edge of the universe must cover a distance of about 490 billion light years every 24 hours. That is quite a bit in excess of the speed of light. Improbable? I think so.
This is not science. This is philosophy. But as I stated before, the lines are blurred.

A geocentric universe is a philosophical ideal, as is a heliocentric universe. The fact is that no one, except God himself, truly scientifically knows what the center of the universe truly is because we do not control it and we didn’t create it.

Our religious faith teaches that God considers each of us to equally be “centers” of the universe.
 
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