Geocentrism: why doesn't it just die and be done with?

[grannymh]

As has been demonstrated in many threads, there is a huge difference between individuals, including high ranking clergy and CAF members, who debate scientific theories and Catholic dogma regarding faith in God.
Individuals live and die. Actual Catholic Dogma remains forever under the protection of the Holy Spirit.

Choosing to be Catholic does not require every man, woman, and child to pass a physics test regarding the interaction of objects and energies in the universe.
It does require a basic knowledge and acceptance of Catholicism which can be found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition.

It is no surprise that a few Catholics rebel against various Catholic dogmas. It is no surprise that some Catholics will ignore Church protocol regarding actual dogmas.

 

[hansgeorg]

Perhaps you missed what I said in my last post: “Now I have no more energy for discussions with someone who answers every natural observation and rational argument with an appeal to the supernatural. Your epistemology is so radically different from mine, and from that of most Catholics, that there can be no useful outcome.”.

I have no idea why you think that I would waste my time presenting all the detailed information on these aberrations for you to explain away by the angelic jiggling of stars. My comment was not to you but to others, pointing out that the aberration measured from a satellite is different from the aberration measured from earth - both are non-zero but we would measure zero aberration from a static non-rotating earth.

If you want to do these sums, all the information about the orbits of the satellite and the formulae for calculating aberration (with and without the special relativity correction - which is small by the way) is available on-line - do the sums yourself and I’ll promise to correct any mistakes that you make.

Alec
evolutionpages.com

And the information of how to calculate the other sums, like what it would look like if geocentrism were true and why it does not look like that? Available online too?

Indeed, for me it might be a waste of time to do the sums. But why not do it for others?

Or for yourself, to take a chance and see if geocentrism might not be disproven.

My epistomology is that of St Thomas Aquinas, by the way. If not, show the discrepancy. With relevant quotes from the summa.

Oh, by the way: you may use both the Summa Contra Gentiles and the Summa Theologica.

 

[hansgeorg]

Read:

manifestation.com/neurotoys/eliza.php3

Hello, I am Eliza.

• does God exist?

Don’t you ever say Hello?

• not to machines

I’m not sure I understand you fully.

 

[Rick09]

You completely misunderstand my position, I am not a geocentrist - my issue is with Granny who for a few years now has been vehemently opposed to any Catholic who accepts polygenism on the grounds of infallible teaching - yet of course, this seems to depend on if the teaching in question is personally acceptable to her as she of course does not believe in geocentrism - despite the geocentrists showing quite definitively that heliocentrism was condemned in no uncertain terms.

I never stated that “you” were a geocentrist. So, “you’ve” only further proved that “you’re” a chatterbot because “you” “read” without comprehension.

“Your” arguments are reminiscent of the chatter generated by chatterbots and in this case, they also fit perfectly well with the Jewish Masonic Anti-Catholic, Anti-Science conspiracy designed to keep people away from the Church and to move Catholics out of it.

 

[hansgeorg]

Brother Consolmagno said the real reason that Galileo was eventually brought before the Inquisition and found guilty of suspected heresy is still a mystery. Numerous authors have proposed different findings and the trial is still “a great puzzle for historians,” he said.

Thanks to having many friends in high places, Galileo for years managed to evade any problems for maintaining that the earth revolves around the sun, the Jesuit said.

…

“All of which makes me suspect that the trial was a political setup that had nothing to do with philosophy,” he said.

“The Spanish ambassador to the Holy See had accused Pope Urban VIII in public of being a closet Protestant because he wasn’t vigorously enough supporting the Spanish” side in their fight against the so-called Protestant side, he said.

A few alternatives to the Jesuit brother:

newadvent.org/cathen/06342b.htm

It was not until four years later that trouble arose, the ecclesiastical authorities taking alarm at the persistence with which Galileo proclaimed the truth of the Copernican doctrine. That their opposition was grounded, as is constantly assumed, upon a fear lest men should be enlightened by the diffusion of scientific truth, it is obviously absurd to maintain. On the contrary, they were firmly convinced, with Bacon and others, that the new teaching was radically false and unscientific, while it is now truly admitted that Galileo himself had no sufficient proof of what he so vehemently advocated, and Professor Huxley after examining the case avowed his opinion that the opponents of Galileo “had rather the best of it”. But what, more than all, raised alarm was anxiety for the credit of Holy Scripture, the letter of which was then universally believed to be the supreme authority in matters of science, as in all others. When therefore it spoke of the sun staying his course at the prayer of Joshua, or the earth as being ever immovable, it was assumed that the doctrine of Copernicus and Galileo was anti-Scriptural; and therefore heretical. It is evident that, since the days of Copernicus himself, the Reformation controversy had done much to attach suspicion to novel interpretations of the Bible, which was not lessened by the endeavours of Galileo and his ally Foscarini to find positive arguments for Copernicanism in the inspired volume. Foscarini, a Carmelite friar of noble lineage, who had twice ruled Calabria as provincial, and had considerable reputation as a preacher and theologian, threw himself with more zeal than discretion into the controversy, as when he sought to find an argument for Copernicanism in the seven-branched candlestick of the Old Law. Above all, he excited alarm by publishing works on the subject in the vernacular, and thus spreading the new doctrine, which was startling even for the learned, amongst the masses who were incapable of forming any sound judgment concerning it. There was at the time an active sceptical party in Italy , which aimed at the overthrow of all religion, and, as Sir David Brewster acknowledges (Martyrs of Science), there is no doubt that this party lent Galileo all its support.
In these circumstances, Galileo, hearing that some had denounced his doctrine as anti-Scriptural, presented himself at Rome in December, 1615, and was courteously received. He was presently interrogated before the Inquisition , which after consultation declared the system he upheld to be scientifically false, and anti-Scriptural or heretical, and that he must renounce it. This he obediently did, promising to teach it no more. Then followed a decree of the Congregation of the Index dated 5 March 1616, prohibiting various heretical works to which were added any advocating the Copernican system.

Encyclopedia Britannica, macropedia (2007, vol. 19, p. 640):

In 1624 Galileo went to Rome and had six interviews with Pope Urban VIII.
…
But in giving Simplicio the final word, that God could have made the universe anyway he wanted to and still made it appear to us the way it does, he put Pope Urban VIII’s favourite argument in the mouth of the person who had been ridiculed throughout the dialogue.

It seems Pope Urban VIII had taken a similar stance as Parisian Bishop Tempier (who had by condemnations of propositions how God “could not have” created the universe paved the way for Nicole d’Oresme and then Copernicus.)

Finally, it may be noted that the previous Pope had made a new calendar (the Gregorian) from calculations of equinox by astronomers that the Sigillikon (Patriarchal Bull in the Orthodox Church as they say/among Photians as they said) qualified as “atheist astronomers”. This might have on the Papacy put some pressure in an ecumenical or simply polemical and apologetical way to prove to the East it was not apostate from Gospel and believer in “atheist astronomers”.

 

[Rick09]

You completely misunderstand my position, I am not a geocentrist - my issue is with Granny who for a few years now has been vehemently opposed to any Catholic who accepts polygenism on the grounds of infallible teaching - yet of course, this seems to depend on if the teaching in question is personally acceptable to her as she of course does not believe in geocentrism - despite the geocentrists showing quite definitively that heliocentrism was condemned in no uncertain terms.

I never stated that “you” were a geocentrist. So, “you’ve” only further proved that “you’re” a chatterbot because “you” read without comprehension.

“Your” arguments are reminiscent of the chatter generated by chatterbots and in this case, they also fit perfectly well with the Jewish Masonic Anti-Catholic, Anti-Science conspiracy designed to keep people away from the Church and to move Catholics out of it.

(I put “you” in quotes because I’m not certain how one should address a chatterbot that’s part of a conspiracy).

 

[grannymh]

And you’ve only further proved that you’re a chatterbot because you “read” without comprehension. I never wrote that you were a geocentrist.

Your arguments are reminiscent of the foolish chatter generated by chatterbots and in this case, they fit perfectly well with the Jewish Masonic Anti-Catholic, Anti-Science conspiracy designed to keep people away from the Church and to move Catholics out of it.

You may not be aware that some chatterbots ignore granny’s part in the anti-chocolate haters conspiracy which fits perfectly well with the fore mentioned anti-antics…

 

[hansgeorg]

I never stated that “you” were a geocentrist. So, “you’ve” only further proved that “you’re” a chatterbot because “you” “read” without comprehension.

“Your” arguments are reminiscent of the chatter generated by chatterbots and in this case, they also fit perfectly well with the Jewish Masonic Anti-Catholic, Anti-Science conspiracy designed to keep people away from the Church and to move Catholics out of it.

This talk about chatterboxes means a vast overrating of mindlikeness of mere machine prestanda. I have written about that in two posts including final debates with a man whom I had also debated on Geocentrism twice past year:

hglsfbwritings.blogspot.com/2011/01/qph.html
hglsfbwritings.blogspot.com/2011/01/orchor-what-is-that.html

Mind is not a machine. Chatterboxes would be very quickly detected.

 

[hansgeorg]

You may not be aware that some chatterbots ignore granny’s part in the anti-chocolate haters conspiracy which fits perfectly well with the fore mentioned anti-antics…

In the anti-chocolate haters conspiracy? Meaning you love chocolate?

I do so myself to a default!

 

[Rick09]

This talk about chatterboxes means a vast overrating of mindlikeness of mere machine prestanda…Mind is not a machine. Chatterboxes would be very quickly detected. I am not a chatterbot. I am not a chatterbot.

In post #380, I wrote:

Now watch the conspirators deny the charge or laugh it off as nonsense…which is exactly what you’d expect Jewish Masonic anti-Catholic, anti-Science conspirators to do. – Rick09

So I’m vindicated once again. One will also note “Hans’” odd and often incorrect grammar and word choices, which is further proof that he is a less developed chatterbot.

 

[grannymh]

In the anti-chocolate haters conspiracy? Meaning you love chocolate?

I do so myself to a default!

Chocolate and ice cream are on my health foods list.

Seriously, our Catholic Faith is a precious gift. It is my understanding that St. Thomas Aquinas believed that it is very important to thoroughly understand Catholic dogma. It is also my understanding that St. Thomas Aquinas required that science be done well.

Blessings,
granny

Genesis 1:1

 

[Al_Moritz]

Sorry Granny, but excubitor makes a good case for why geocentrism should also be an infaillible, divinely revealed doctrine:

You can’t have your cake and eat it. If the Church was fallible with geocentrism it was fallible with Humani Generis too.

I don’t see that geocentrism was ever a Catholic dogma:

jloughnan.tripod.com/dogma.htm

(Data there extracted from Ott.)

 

[Al_Moritz]

Hecd, Palm, Moritz and Granny:

I’ve had a breakthrough.

Hans, Razredge and Excubitor are all just a need breed of chatterbots designed by a cabal of Jewish Masonic anti-Catholics. It’s part of a new, growing anti-Catholic, anti-science conspiracy.

Read:

manifestation.com/neurotoys/eliza.php3
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELIZA

Does that or does that not sound quite a lot like Hans, Razredge and Excubitor?

I don’t get it, Rick. Razredge is one of the most pro-science and pro-evolution guys on this forum (I proudly am another one ). Your subsequent post # 388 clarifies nothing but only further obfuscates.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

I don’t get it, Rick. Razredge is one of the most pro-science and pro-evolution guys on this forum (I proudly am another one ). Your subsequent post # 388 clarifies nothing but only further obfuscates.

Think again. I am the most pro scientist of them all. The proof is in the fact that I can smell science in my coffee!!!

It doesn’t get much better than that, rude boy.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

You may not be aware that some chatterbots ignore granny’s part in the anti-chocolate haters conspiracy which fits perfectly well with the fore mentioned anti-antics…

I hate mars bars.

Hey granny, how is that this thread still exists? Are you a flat earther?

 

[hansgeorg]

What I actually said (I mean wrote):

This talk about chatterboxes means a vast overrating of mindlikeness of mere machine prestanda. I have written about that in two posts including final debates with a man whom I had also debated on Geocentrism twice past year:

hglsfbwritings.blogspot.com/2011/01/qph.html
hglsfbwritings.blogspot.com/2011/01/orchor-what-is-that.html

Mind is not a machine. Chatterboxes would be very quickly detected.

Rick’s quote:
"misquoted by rick:

This talk about chatterboxes means a vast overrating of mindlikeness of mere machine prestanda…Mind is not a machine. Chatterboxes would be very quickly detected. I am not a chatterbot. I am not a chatterbot.

So I’m vindicated once again. One will also note “Hans’” odd and often incorrect grammar and word choices, which is further proof that he is a less developed chatterbot.

Rick does not prove either me or himself a chaterbot by misquoting, but he does prove himself gravely dishonest. Or a bad taste joker with too few smileys.

“Odd and often incorrect grammar” - seems people of progressive scientific community have a sense of grammar of their own. A bit other than the actual rules of it.

“Mindlikeness” might be “mind-likeness”, but do you really call that incorrect grammar?

Anyone have a better word for “likeness in appearance to that of a human mind”?

 

[Al_Moritz]

Think again. I am the most pro scientist of them all. The proof is in the fact that I can smell science in my coffee!!!

It doesn’t get much better than that, rude boy.

Sure, I’ve always seen you as being “on our side” too

 

[Rick09]

I don’t get it, Rick. Razredge is one of the most pro-science and pro-evolution guys on this forum (I proudly am another one ). Your subsequent post # 388 clarifies nothing but only further obfuscates.

Perhaps, but he’s misrepresenting the “teaching” of the Church in much the same way that the geocentrists are while making points. And so, he’s obviously part of the same massive Jewish, Masonic anti-Catholic, Anti-Science conspiracy. Razredge’s pro-science statements are just a decoy to throw us off track. These people and their chatterbots are very tricky, Al.

I think the geocentrists are really onto something with this whole conspiracy world view. Work with me here.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

I think the geocentrists are really onto something with this whole conspiracy world view. Work with me here.

I tell you what, read me a story about peter pan and the lost doughnut. If you do a good job, i will seriously consider mastering and advocating geocentric conspiracy theory apologetics for your crew. However i must warn you, i charge a flat-rate of no less than £500,000,000 an hour.

 

[Rick09]

And here is further proof that Hans is involved in a massive, Jewish Masonic anti-Catholic, Anti-Science conspiracy.

Notice that Hans says that I “misquoted him.” And it certainly appears that way, at least at first blush (and to the naïve). But what actually happened here is that Hans’ original quote was been changed and he has used that change to make me appear to be dishonest!

The proof?

Here is my original statement, which was also Hans’ original statement here:

This talk about chatterboxes means a vast overrating of mindlikeness of mere machine prestanda…Mind is not a machine. Chatterboxes would be very quickly detected. I am not a chatterbot. I am not a chatterbot.

and NOW…look at Hans’ statement here:

This talk about chatterboxes means a vast overrating of mindlikeness of mere machine prestanda…Mind is not a machine. Chatterboxes would be very quickly detected.

Notice that the duplicate “I am not a chatterbot” statements have completely and utterly disappeared! What’s even more disquieting is that the change happened well AFTER the time that the CAF allows for users to edit their comments!

Obviously, then, there is even more power behind this growing conspiracy than we originally estimated. Clearly, the Jewish Masonic anti-Catholic, Anti-Science conspiracy even includes at least one CAF moderator who changed Hans’ original statement to hide the obvious signs that “he” is a chatterbot (the repetition of “I am not a chatterbot”). We knew there was a conspiracy at the very highest levels of the Church to hide the revealed truth of geocentrism from Catholics, but who would have guessed that it* could even spread to the CAF itself*?