"German archbishop calls for open debate about women priests in the Catholic Church"

  • Thread starter Thread starter IanM
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
And if you thought the article was a problem, you should see the comments.

Ugh.
 
Your Excellency, the matter is settled and the debate closed!
 
But he is a bishop in good standing right. His theology surpasses ours.
 
redcatholic said:
But he is a bishop in good standing right. His theology surpasses ours.
Click to expand...
And the theology of St. Pope John Paul II surpasses his.
Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.
Click to expand...
http://w2.vatican.va/content/john-p...p-ii_apl_19940522_ordinatio-sacerdotalis.html

If the German Bishop is part of the Church’s faithful, then he too is to definitively hold that the Church has no authority to ordain women into the priesthood. Period.
 
He is a bishop in good standing in the Church calling for a debate. I don’t have his authority.
 
redcatholic said:
He is a bishop in good standing in the Church calling for a debate. I don’t have his authority.
Click to expand...
And he doesn’t have the authority to disregard an infallible papal definitive statement on a matter of faith or morals required to be “definitively held by all the Church’s faithful”.

We’re not undermining a bishop’s authority to observe when he’s undermining a pope’s authority.
 
Last edited:
stpurl said:
And if you thought the article was a problem, you should see the comments.

Ugh.
Click to expand...
Yikes, I probably shouldn’t have gone and looked.

The current top comment provoked me to wry amusement though. It contained this gem:
“I can’t and won’t argue about whether JP2’s statement is infallible. But I will say this. Denying the priesthood to anyone who is worthy, regardless of gender, is unfair to those who long to serve in this capacity. And not only it unfair, it is shortsighted because it deprives the Church and it’s people of the talents and gifts in this role of over half the population“
Click to expand...
Haha. No kidding he can’t argue about it, so no wonder he won’t. Surreal attempt to handwave away reality to keep discussing an impossible concept.

“I can’t and won’t argue about whether gravity actually exists… but I think we should keep debating about whether humans can fly if we flap our arms hard enough! It’s really unfair if we can’t, you know. After all, we long to! And not only is it unfair, but it’s shortsighted, because it deprives the sky and the birds of the joy of watching humans doing loop-di-loops in the clouds.”

Ugh and someone else commented that the priesthood is just a “job” and this is a question of “job requirements”.
 
Last edited:
I think that the pope encourages debate and discussion. I think collegiality has a new place in the Church rightly or wrongly, I think a bishop should encourage his brother bishops to talk about these things. I think that if it’s infallible then that will take care of itself. Look,I don’t think women can be ordained. But I’m not a bishop. Neither are you.
 
It’s one thing to try and struggle to accept a particular doctrine ("involuntary doubt), but choosing to have an “open mind” about matters that must be definitively held would be the sin of voluntary doubt. And as the CCC notes (CCC 2088), “If deliberately cultivated doubt can lead to spiritual blindness”.
 
redcatholic said:
I think collegiality has a new place in the Church rightly or wrongly
Click to expand...
Collegiality doesn’t mean bishops use some sort of parliamentary process to pass, repeal, or modify the doctrines of our faith or to have varying doctrines from place to place. This is directly contrary to the mission of the college of bishops. Rather, as Vatican II notes, it means they should work together “to promote and to safeguard the unity of faith and the discipline common to the whole Church”. Introducing doubt and novelties contrary to what has been definitively held by the universal Church for the Church’s entire history, and definitively confirmed by the Roman Pontiff (on whom the whole college depends), is directly contrary to collegiality as defined at Vatican II and always understood by the Church in her whole history.
 
Last edited:
Remembering Godspell and Luther’s song:
God Almighty has made our people bad
God Almighty has turned our rulers mad
For the German nobility (read bishops) with typical agility has so applied their skill at egregious laws
That the people are led astray, they feel beholden to obey—It might be just the German way, but God it gives us pause.
 
redcatholic said:
Look,I don’t think women can be ordained. But I’m not a bishop. Neither are you.
Click to expand...
The magisterium has spoken, and given clarity so that you don’t have to "think"or be unsure.
  1. What does “definitively hold” mean to you?
  2. Does that only apply to some in the Church and not all?
 
Last edited:
redcatholic said:
I think our pope is expanding that.
Click to expand...
If by “expanding that” you mean he is remaking the college into some positivist doctrinal parliament, then that is not in his job description and he has no authority to do so. The college of bishops has its power and authority–and its limits–by divine institution. The Pope is the servant of that, not it’s master.

On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with encouraging debate and discussion about the best ways to safeguard the unity of faith and strengthen our common discipline. Encouraging the general episcopate more in this, rather than just relying on the Roman Curia, can certainly be a good thing. But encouraging them to deliberately undermine the unity of faith would be directly opposed to his office’s mission of fostering true unity (both diachronic and synchronic unity).

Encouraging the deliberate introduction of doubt, disturbing the faithful, and fostering dissent with the attitude that God will uphold the truth in the end, is like Satan telling Jesus to jump off a cliff because God will ensure He be caught. It is an act of irreligion and disrespect toward’s our Heavenly Father, not to mention spiritual abuse of the faithful who rely on the teaching and pastoral solicitude of their bishop.

Pope John Paul II made the definitive judgment on this doctrine, which was already clearly attested to by the universal Tradition from East to West across the centuries, in order to remove all doubt. That aids the unity of faith. Pointlessly re-introducing doubts by looking instead to the wisdom of this world undermines unity.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top