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blaskoman
Guest
I was appalled when I heard about this. Does anyone know more details about this?
German catholics must pay 8/9 percent tax on their income, otherwise they are excluded from the sacraments
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Boulder257
Guest
Where did you hear this? Did they provide a source?
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blaskoman
Guest
A German friend told me. Just Google it
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Boulder257
Guest
It looks like this was formulated by the government and applies to almost all faiths in Germany. They also have the same this in Austria. I am still reading about it, because I had never heard about it until you brought it up.
I’m not saying any of this makes it any better, but it looks like it’s a tax on the religious, not just the Catholic.
It also appears this tax has been in place since the 19th century; however, it was only recently that the Bishops said you couldn’t receive certain sacraments for not paying.
I’m not saying any of this makes it any better, but it looks like it’s a tax on the religious, not just the Catholic.
It also appears this tax has been in place since the 19th century; however, it was only recently that the Bishops said you couldn’t receive certain sacraments for not paying.
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markomalley
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Germany has a “Church Tax” (Kirchenteuer). You pay the government this tax and the government turns this tax over to the applicable church (usually Catholic or Lutheran)
The only way to get out of paying this tax is to either switch churches (for example to convert from Lutheran to Catholic), in which case your taxes go to the new church, our by formally renouncing your faith (i.e. apostasy)
If one has formally apostasized, would it be appropriate to minister the sacraments to that person?
The only way to get out of paying this tax is to either switch churches (for example to convert from Lutheran to Catholic), in which case your taxes go to the new church, our by formally renouncing your faith (i.e. apostasy)
If one has formally apostasized, would it be appropriate to minister the sacraments to that person?
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Mike30
Guest
Who would know if you did or di not pay?
If the Bishops said you are excluded from participation in the any of the Sacraments unless you pay, then I would think there is definitely a problem with what is going on.
Not meaning or trying to derail the thread, does anyone have any info on the German family that is applying for asylum in the United States because the German government refuses to allow homeschooling by the parents? In this case it is a Catholic family who didn’;t want to send their children to German public schools due to what they termed the liberal base of the curriculum.
If the Bishops said you are excluded from participation in the any of the Sacraments unless you pay, then I would think there is definitely a problem with what is going on.
Not meaning or trying to derail the thread, does anyone have any info on the German family that is applying for asylum in the United States because the German government refuses to allow homeschooling by the parents? In this case it is a Catholic family who didn’;t want to send their children to German public schools due to what they termed the liberal base of the curriculum.
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Iron_Donkey
Guest
This isn’t exactly what is going on. It is not non-payment that keeps a person from receiving the sacraments, but the method by which they avoid paying.
In Germany, there is a religion tax. A certain amount of your income is taken and given to the religion that you tell the government that you belong to. The only way to avoid this tax is to tell the government that you don’t have a religion - that is, to publicly deny your faith. Those excluded from the sacraments are those who publicly deny the Catholic faith for tax evasion purposes.
Let me be clear, I don’t like the Church tax and personally think that it either should not exist, or that one should be able to opt out by just saying “I opt out” rather than “I am not a member of X faith,” (but that may just be my 'mercan sensibilities). I don’t think this because I somehow think it’s ok to not support the Church, but because having it be through a compulsory tax bothers me.
But given what the law is, the people who are not paying are not simply refusing to give money to the Church, they are telling the government that they aren’t Catholic for their own financial gain. And denying our faith is one thing we cannot do for any reason, much less some petty financial gain.
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Mike30
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I don’t know. If the Church is accepting this money and refusing the Sacraments if it is not paid, it sounds almost like extortion. There must be moreto this story than is being presented here.
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Dakota_Roberts
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The bishops are merely saying that if you claim you aren’t Catholic then they will assume you are telling the truth and exclude you just like every other non-Catholic.
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Iron_Donkey
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I ninja edited my post while you were replying it seems. But perhaps the Church in Germany should either stop accepting the money, or pressure the government to allow an opt out that does not involve denying the faith.
However, as things are now, people are not just being refused the sacraments because they don’t pay, but because they are denying their faith for personal gain. And that needs to be maintained - people who deny their faith for personal gain (or any other reason) should not be able to receive the sacraments. If you tell the government that you are not Catholic, then you have said you are not Catholic, and should be taken at your word. If you don’t really mean that you’re not Catholic, then you shouldn’t say so, whether it saves you money or not.
But I do agree that the system in Germany provides a temptation to do so that should be removed.
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Dakota_Roberts
Guest
If the Church stops accepting the money it isn’t going to make the government stop taxing the people so the Church will have no money from tithes and no money from taxes and church buildings need things like lighting and heating for parishioners.
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Iron_Donkey
Guest
Unless the Church finds other sources of income like it does in countries without such a tax.
Again, I am perfectly aware that my distaste for the system might just be a product of the culture I was raised in, but I do not like the fact that this temptation exists.
Perhaps a solution that respects how things work in Germany and does not so much impose my own views on them would be for people who say they are a member of no religion to still pay the “Church Tax,” but for that money to go to some charitable group or other? So that there is not a financial advantage to denying one’s faith.
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sw85
Guest
Not sure why this is in this forum; should probably go elsewhere.
My understanding is that the tax exists because of the state’s seizure of lucrative Church properties at some point in the fairly recent past. These properties were essential to the maintenance of the life of the Church, so the tax was levied in compensation for them. Think of it as a continuing eminent domain payment.
Exclusion from the sacraments arises as a result of apostasy (repudiation of the Christian faith) or schism (breaking communion with Rome) for tax evasion purposes. Apostasy and schism are both serious, grave sins and they are identified explicitly in canon law as some of the crimes that incur an automatic excommunication (and thus denial of the sacraments).
If we have never heard of this happening before, it’s probably because it genuinely never happened before. Previous generations were so sincerely devout and faithful that it would never occur to them that publicly renounce the faith for a negligible decrease in their tax burden. I think we are maybe so inured to atheism and faithlessness nowadays that we forget how radically historically anomalous our situation really is.
My understanding is that the tax exists because of the state’s seizure of lucrative Church properties at some point in the fairly recent past. These properties were essential to the maintenance of the life of the Church, so the tax was levied in compensation for them. Think of it as a continuing eminent domain payment.
Exclusion from the sacraments arises as a result of apostasy (repudiation of the Christian faith) or schism (breaking communion with Rome) for tax evasion purposes. Apostasy and schism are both serious, grave sins and they are identified explicitly in canon law as some of the crimes that incur an automatic excommunication (and thus denial of the sacraments).
If we have never heard of this happening before, it’s probably because it genuinely never happened before. Previous generations were so sincerely devout and faithful that it would never occur to them that publicly renounce the faith for a negligible decrease in their tax burden. I think we are maybe so inured to atheism and faithlessness nowadays that we forget how radically historically anomalous our situation really is.
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Mike30
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It just seems somewhat starnge to me that the Church would withold Sacraments on these grounds. I can see the whole denying the faith angle to a point, but I have to tell you, it really seems, from the information given, that the Church has some kind of agreement with the governement so that they can get more money, and I really hope that is not the case.
Actually, I really wonder why would the goverment of an extremely secular country such as Germany even participate in such a thing?
Maybe they get their cut of it as well and the whole thing is just a money making machine for all involved?
Actually, I really wonder why would the goverment of an extremely secular country such as Germany even participate in such a thing?
Maybe they get their cut of it as well and the whole thing is just a money making machine for all involved?
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ricofall
Guest
I took a world religion class in college. My professor said something to me that helped me understand other faiths and cultures.
“Stop looking at topics using western eyes and understanding. Try to understand from there perspective first…or I am going to fail you”
He made a extremely valid point. They are not the only country that does this and it is the norm for them. Hence it is why we never really hear about it. It is not immortal or sinful how their system works either so why try to push our understanding of Church and State unto them.
“Stop looking at topics using western eyes and understanding. Try to understand from there perspective first…or I am going to fail you”
He made a extremely valid point. They are not the only country that does this and it is the norm for them. Hence it is why we never really hear about it. It is not immortal or sinful how their system works either so why try to push our understanding of Church and State unto them.
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Mike30
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You really can’t get much more western than Germany.
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Iron_Donkey
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Interesting. Though it seems that in this case, the tax shouldn’t only be put on believers but on all people, since it is the government that has the debt. But in any case, this does make me less annoyed about the tax’s existence (which I know is bordering on arrogance, since as a non-German who hasn’t studied German culture or history, I shouldn’t pretend that I understand why every such law or institution exists, but the visceral “this isn’t cool” reaction remains), though I still tend to think that the current setup is very suboptimal.
Agree.
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xixxvmcm85
Guest
Exactly. While the means by which the Church may receive her funds in another country “bothers our American sensibilities” of secularism, it’s frankly none of our business. If it bothered enough Germans they would change the system. Churches have to pay water bills, electricity bills, maintain buildings, pay priests, etc. just like any other organization. This isn’t extortion any more than it would be if the American Bishops told us that “faithful” Catholics are obligated to financially support their parishes and dioceses (which they in fact do!). Furthermore, the Catholic and Evangelical churches in Germany are the premiere organizations which provide public health and education. “State Schools” in Germany are more often than not ran by either the EKD or the Catholic Church, and all Germans have access to these schools.
The state requires that if you are baptized in either the Evangelical Church of Germany (EKD) or the Catholic Church, you will by default pay this tax. If you wish to be exempted, you must join one of the Freikirchen (e.g. a non-Evangelical or non-Catholic ecclesial body such as a free Baptist or Pentecostal church) or one of the Sekten (such as the Mormons or Jehovahs’ Witnesses), both of which do not receive state monies. The other option is to officially resign membership in the Church. Both of these options, according to the Catholic Church, count as an act of apostasy, and therefore the penitent no longer deserves access to the Sacraments.
When I lived in Germany, it was my experience that most Germans don’t mind the system. The truly faithful would pay regardless, so it doesn’t bother them. The nominally Catholic (or Lutheran) wouldn’t mind paying since they nevertheless utilize the churches on major holidays (Easter and Christmas Catholics, anyone?) and despite their irreligiosity would like to have their children baptized. Many Scandinavian friends of mine have told me essentially the same thing with regards to the State Lutheran Churches of Norway and Sweden and their analogous church tax.
EDIT: To clarify my use of “Evangelical”: in Germany, there are essentially two “Churches”. These are die Katolische Kirche and die Evangelische Kirche in Deutschland. The latter is the official name of the united body of the vast majority of Lutheran and Reformed churches in Germany. At least in Bavaria, Luteranische (Lutheran) and Evangelische (Evangelical) are used interchangeably in common speech.
All other Protestant, Orthodox, and Jewish “churches” are called “Freikirchen” (Free Churches). They receive no money from the government, and have limited rights in supplying public social services. The “Sekten” are all other groups, including Mormons, Muslims, and really small, independent Protestant communities. They likewise receive no money from the government, and so their members are not taxed.
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xixxvmcm85
Guest
Or, maybe, you know, it has something to do with mere historical tradition. We’re talking about Old Europe, not the United States, which was founded on secular principles. The UK is publicly more secular than the US, and yet they have an official State Church (The Church of England), which likewise eats at the government trough. The same is said about the notoriously atheist Norway and Sweden which each have their own State Lutheran churches. The same would probably still be the case in “Catholic” Spain, if it weren’t for the mess Franco made.It just seems somewhat starnge to me that the Church would withold Sacraments on these grounds. I can see the whole denying the faith angle to a point, but I have to tell you, it really seems, from the information given, that the Church has some kind of agreement with the governement so that they can get more money, and I really hope that is not the case.
Actually, I really wonder why would the goverment of an extremely secular country such as Germany even participate in such a thing?
Maybe they get their cut of it as well and the whole thing is just a money making machine for all involved?
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JerryZ
Guest
You are kidding right?
We are talking about Germans, of course they would know who aposthatized to avoid paying the tax.In Italy is the same though it’s a smaller percentage, but there the bishops probably would not know who decided to not pay
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