German Church coming apart

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There is obviously a backlash against Christian culture in the west. People have been scandalized by rigorism, pietism, hypocrisy, cruelty, etc…and are being led astray by the errant illogic of atheism and a slothful indifference.
Evils like the holocaust are blamed on religious intolerance. Popular myths have grown up around religion that have nothing to do with genuine faith.

There are elements of truth to this point of view, and at the same time the evil one is using these problems to spread indifference and atheism.

This backlash is occurring where I live in the USA also. In my graduating class from Catholic high school in 1978 a tiny percentage are still practicing Catholic. Like15%.
In my family, those who grew up pre vatican 2 ran screaming from the Church when given the freedom to do so. My brothers and sisters have memories of cruel and unhappy religious hitting students. They are living “good” lives that look Christian but they will not set foot in the Church.

We are in tough times but there have been tougher times.
Good evangelization is more important than ever. A healthy sense of Catholic tradition needs to be recaptured, one that does not seek to live in the past but seeks a renewal of tradition. Evangelization must point to the joy and goodness of God and not to condemnation. For better or worse (and we could debate this) people no longer fear religion. We must give them compelling reasons to look at Jesus Christ.

And in my opinion, if we want to recapture Catholic tradition we need to speak directly against the philosophy of the age. Good evangelization will have to be sharp philosophically, and recapture the intellectual high ground the Church has always held over the centuries. We have forfeited this intellectual high ground and stuck our heads in the sand.

We need to engage these problems. Catholic Tradition, and
Catholic theology, and Catholic philosophy give us the tools to do so.
 
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Can. 844 §1. Catholic ministers administer the sacraments licitly to Catholic members of the Christian faithful alone, who likewise receive them licitly from Catholic ministers alone, without prejudice to the prescripts of §§2, 3, and 4 of this canon, and ⇒ can. 861, §2.

Ya know, the CIC is in German online…
 
At this point, I really think we ought to follow Africa’s example. The Church is thriving over there. It seems the Church in the West has been wasting way too much time trying to make the faith more accommodating to people who seem indifferent to or outright reject Church teaching on moral issues. I’m not suggesting we should neglect these people (we must try our best to convert them) but one of the reasons the Church is so attractive is because it has high standards and refuses to back down from them.
 
And, in the US, the example of the Diocese of Lincoln, Nebraska
 
Well, even if you do treat it as such, there is no grave matter in the German church that would permit this…
 
Germany is a different situation than the United States or some of the other western countries in regards to the Catholic Church.

German Catholics are required to pay a rather significant “church tax” that’s collected by the German government and distributed to the Catholic Church ( and other religious organizations too from their members).

Alienating the people who are paying the freight takes a lot of courage.
 
I am a born German - of roundabout and more or less 80 and grew up with ever so deep believing parents, who told me God’s absolute reality from first day when I started thinking. In my family there where Priests of both, the Catholic as Protestant Church. So, I know what I’m talking about when speaking about Belief, Church and social life among believers here.
As to the Church-tax, which is up to 9% of the income-tax - here as in Austria. me as well as other believers love to pay it to support our Church.
As to the theme or thread “German Church coming apart“ - I would call most what’s said here „disorientation“. sorry, but I was astonished at what’s so firmly stated here, without exact insider research.
No, the Church is Germany is definitely NOT in unstoppable decline.
No, German Bishops are NOT at war about what so ever.
Yes, there are some excited discussions about the theme Communion for Protestants is the couple is on one part this and on the other that Church-member. But no, this has in no way split the German Church. Most people rather either don’t care, or don’t know, and most simply wait in peace for a final papal decision. I for me would say that’s full ok, for Jesus Christ never denies Himself to Protestants, if they fully belief in the full presence of Christ in the consecrated host. In fact Jesus Christ never even denies Himself to anybody. Remember He even inaugurates St. Matthew the Evangelist to an Apostle of His, even though Matthew was a tax-collector. nd Christ protected the women who was to be stoned for adultery. And bags of other proves of Mercy, which is Pope Francis main theme.
Yes „People have been scandalized by rigorism, pietism, hypocrisy, cruelty, etc…and are being led astray by the errant illogic of atheism and a slothful indifference.“ Alike - be it in Germany or the USA. It’s a sign of our time. Still I wouldn’t say it’s any worse nor better that any of the „good old times“.
 
Yes „People have been scandalized by rigorism, pietism, hypocrisy, cruelty, etc…and are being led astray by the errant illogic of atheism and a slothful indifference.“ Alike - be it in Germany or the USA. It’s a sign of our time. Still I wouldn’t say it’s any worse nor better that any of the „good old times“.

Holocaust is not blamed on religious intolerance. Mind that 20 years later same Jews where destroyed in hellish ways, who only 15 years after they had fought side on side with the non-Jew-Germany in First World-War.
No, there was no religious intolerance at all. Hells monsters around Hitler and the rest of his Nazis never even mentioned religion, for they had no religion. Jews to them where „People’s-vermint“ who in secret conspiracy wanted to destroy Germany’s economy. In unprecedented demagogy, Nazis tried to make believe, that Jews hate all Non-Jews. Though Nazies where non-religious t it’s most, they even took Luther’s letters against the Jews to underline their hate and that the simply „had to protect“ Germany from the Jews. Nazis where greedy on Jewish money and wealth and banks and industries in Jewish property. Jewish belief and Jewish religion these monster Nazis didn’t even know. Such, it’s been no RELIGIOUS intolerance.

Yes, right is, that „the Church in the West has been wasting way too much time trying to make the faith more accommodating to people“
Our Church was for Generations too idle to establish real belief in people. Now it’s partly too late, as to a vast majority belief is a alien thing. And if extremely popular scientists such as Steve Hawking addingly trumpet THERE IS NO GOD (in the soft version „NO GOD IS NECESSARY FOR THE WORLD AND US TO EXIST“ then we got it.

In general; - among us Christians there is actually no difference between USA and Germany if you disregard the fact that here we just got Catholics and Protestants, whilst you got apart from there, a adding lot of other Christian denominations too.

Yours
Bruno
 
Augustinian said:
Germany is a different situation than the United States or some of the other western countries in regards to the Catholic Church.

German Catholics are required to pay a rather significant “church tax” that’s collected by the German government and distributed to the Catholic Church ( and other religious organizations too from their members).

Alienating the people who are paying the freight takes a lot of courage.
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I´d be careful with that. Alot of money is given to the church buildings itself, the tax is dependent on a certain wealth niveau, and the “other religious organizations” are only one- the protestant church of germany. It´s not available for religious groups in general.
 
Yikes first blessing same sex “marriages” and now this. Pope Francis needs to set some people in line…
 
BrunoMaria said:
No, the Church is Germany is definitely NOT in unstoppable decline.

No, German Bishops are NOT at war about what so ever.
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So glad you responded. This article is just another example of Big news gadflies and sensationalism.
 
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Exactly! “It’s all Big news gadflies and sensationalism”.
I don’t know why even Catholics pay more attention to suchlike thing, instead of to the deeper and deepest real meaning of belief.
Belief our connection to God. And in order not to let our Church-Ship sail astray into desastrous traps hell set for us, we got the papal leadership in Rome, the place where the center of the most brutal persecution of Christians took place for centuries after Jesus Christ had been on earth in flesh. God destroyed the nation who did it, and put todays Vatican on the place where our first Pope St. Peter was crucified (head down feet up).

One is tempted to think that same will happen to Germany, who destroyed so many of God’s selected people under it’s “emperor” Hitler with his Nazis, who killed all who where not on their side - even with special concentration camps for Priests.

If you watch todays Germany - it’s become a melting pot of “all nations” - much alike the Mid-Europe antique Rome 300 a.D. In social places such as hospitals, shops, market places and so on, it seems you hear least speaking German. When my wife and I asked for the way in another town, we at first met foreigners of any nation only. Finally we asked a man first; “do you speak German?” He laughed and said in plain German local dialect - “Yeah today you got to ask so amidst Germany”. Same I should think happened to Roman citizens amidst today’s Germany in late Roman’s time - much to their anger.
But well - to God we are all one family. Let’s behave as such!
As we keep praying for the Jews in Good-Friday-Prayer for them to find back to Jesus Christ - they still are God’s own selected people - who presently are the Christians.

But back to our disturbed handling of our belief; our very personal relation to God our Father, let’s find back to the core. Back to Jesus Christ, back to the Most Holy Trinity.

Details, like who said what in one of our sadly enough split Christian Church - as to what ever - doesn’t matter in the least. Let’s find back to belief as Jesus Christ taught us. Jesus Christ, whom we all will see soon - even the baby will, who will live another 100 years.
That’s precisely our one and only aim; to see Jesus Christ personally. And then Christ will not ask to which Church or denomination we belong to, but solely how our relation to God was on earth. Jesus knows before we answer, but our answer can be either disastrous for us of the entrance for eternal life with God.

Yours
Bruno
 
Well, the Eucharist is the cornerstone of the Catholic faith, the 'Source and Summit of the Christian Life" .

If we start to devalue the Eucharist and devalue it by saying that those in manfest mortal sin can reccieve it, in direct contradiction of 1 Corinthians 11:27-32, then we begin to undermine the very foundation of the Church.
 
It is interesting to see what people know (or seem to know) about the Catholic church in Germany.
A lot of things stated above are right, some less so.
Probably I can contribute a thing or two as I am actually a practicing German Catholic 😀
  1. Church taxes: This is a big one. As others have stated, it is 8-9% of income tax. In my case, this amounts to several hundred Euros per year (probably around 1000$ / year). Many people officially leave the church for that reason - they do not want to be forced to pay.
  2. “Evaporation” of faith: Yes, it is true, fewer and fewer people go to mass or care to educate their children in the faith. But this is not special to Germany, but can be observed throughout the Western hemisphere.
  3. Not-so-orthodox bishops: Indeed, some of the more progressive ideas come from German bishops, especially my bishop, Cardinal Marx. But there are counter examples, the papa emeritus , for instance. 😉
As a whole, statements such as “German Church coming apart” are quite obviously wrong if understood in a general way. Yes, it is true, we severely struggle here in Germany and I am really concerned, also on a personal level. Yet, there are signs of hope! We are still here! There are still faithful Catholics, laymen, priests and bishops and we must avoid the trap of defeatism.

You must understand that Germany - while much smaller in terms of size and population when compared to the US - is still a large country with 80+ million people, so overall the situation is complex. There is a big difference between the north(east) and south: You have a largely protestant, more liberal north and a mostly Catholic, more conservative south. In some ways, you could call Bavaria in Southern Germany the “German Texas”. 😃
So in some (more rural) areas in the South, religion still plays a major role. Many of those areas are predominantly Catholic.
Another large difference: We don´t have Evangelicals or Pentecostals. Ok, they do exist, but they do not play any role whatsoever. Protestantism on any larger scale is done for in Germany. Like completely dead, it is plain miserable, they are the ones really coming apart.
The Catholic church (similar with Eastern Orthodox) has a much better perspective, mostly due to immigration from Eastern Europe (Poland, Romania,…) . So there is some influx of young families which may help in the next decades to prevent the total breakdown. We have lots of Polish priests, I am very thankful for that, without them large areas would no longer have a reachable Sunday mass.
 
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Constantin said:
You must understand that Germany - while much smaller in terms of size and population when compared to the US - is still a large country with 80+ million people, so overall the situation is complex. There is a big difference between the north(east) and south: You have a largely protestant, more liberal north and a mostly Catholic, more conservative south. In some ways, you could call Bavaria in Southern Germany the “German Texas”. 😃

So in some (more rural) areas in the South, religion still plays a major role. Many of those areas are predominantly Catholic.

Another large difference: We don´t have Evangelicals or Pentecostals. Ok, they do exist, but they do not play any role whatsoever. Protestantism on any larger scale is done for in Germany. Like completely dead, it is plain miserable, they are the ones really coming apart.

The Catholic church (similar with Eastern Orthodox) has a much better perspective, mostly due to immigration from Eastern Europe (Poland, Romania,…) . So there is some influx of young families which may help in the next decades to prevent the total breakdown. We have lots of Polish priests, I am very thankful for that, without them large areas would no longer have a reachable Sunday mass.
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I agree in most points. I´m also from germany, and it´s a huge regional difference when it comes to denominational issues. I moved to the east some weeks ago, and it was surprisingly more heavy different than I expected. Only the evangelical churches I would attest a different standing than you- I lived in many urban regions where they grew extremely in the last years. They got huge financial and man power help from us-parishes, as I know first hand (my former neighbours were in such a better connected group, the father was a pastor).
I would say, the most regions in germany simply go through the general european trend regarding seculularization. The east is a far more problematic issue, but I share your view that especially the immigrated young families have a positive impact.
 
Although there were a lot of blows to Christianity in the 19th century, it was still Christian Democrats in Europe who built and promoted a lot of the social changes that came after WW2, including the development of the EU, doing away with the death penalty, etc., and they were generally Christian in some form at the time. “Christian Democrat” today doesn’t really mean anything.

Atheists/secularists don’t like hearing it, but there simply isn’t a strong inspirational glue to keep people together once faith is absent. It didn’t work for the Soviet Union and it isn’t working out very well for Europe these days either. Just a whole lot of ‘meh’ and drifting through life while consuming entertainment that doesn’t satisfy on a deep level.
 
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Well, the huge difference between even today’s „East Germany“ and the West here is of course, in East Germany Christian belief wasn’t really forbidden, but all who confessed to be a believer, where heavily discriminated, could not properly study what they wanted to, where laughed at as simple-minded idiots, and much more. Their leaders Ulbricht and later Honecker tore down Churches. Priest could not do their work properly.
Such belief in former GDR (in German DDR= German Democratic Republic) was not just ridiculed, but it actually „dried out"
Our Chancellor Merkels Dad was a Protestant Priest. He moved for religious reasons from Western Germany to Communist East German. Merkel herself never hid her belief there, and such had to suffer a lot of diverse repressive measures. Merkel all the same held on stedfast on Christian Belief.

At all times in the East of Germany, which reached before WW2 far into today’s Poland, „all“ where Protestants.
Due to the communist efforts to delete belief altogether, today most in former GDR are „convinced“ atheists - the rest Protestants - in increasing numbers. But the Cath. Church is widely increasing there too.

As to Church-Tax:
He who leaves the Church because he’s got to pay Church Tax, was never a Christian at all. I always payed Church tax with greatest pleasure indeed. Church tax came about after Napoleon had dispossessed all Churches and Monasteries. So, after the Vienna Congress, when Napoleon was on the Isle of Helena, Central Europe (German and Austria) together with the other countries decided for Church Tax as some kind of Ersatz (compensation) for the immense losses.
Both Churches alike get Church-Tax in same high.

Yours
Bruno
 
@Bruno: Come on, paying church taxes has nothing to do with one’s being Christian at all. Last time I looked, a Trinitarian baptism was what made you Christian, nothing else. And while there are a lot of really good things done with the billions (!) of German church taxes, there are also some things going very wrong. Overall, I think the German church is way too rich. Same holds for the protestant communities, of course.
 
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