germs on the Communion cup

[EasterJoy]

And perhaps I might re-pose my question on people’s personal practices: To all of you who do not believe that disease may be transmitted by the common cup, but refrain from partaking if you yourself are feeling sick: **What, are your germs *special ***or something?

tee

The research used by the CDC that led them to conclude that it was not necessary to discourage a common communion cup did not involve swabbing a cup under the circumstances anticipated for Mass (or whatever similar circumstances might exist for another denomination).

The research compared the illness rates for people who receive from a common cup very frequently with those who did not receive or who did not attend church at all. The conclusion was that there was not a difference in illness rates. The research did not reveal why this was, only that there wasn’t a discernible difference. In other words, of all of the ways you can pick up a cold, this one wouldn’t automatically put you high on the risk list. Furthermore, there are no known cases on record of a disease outbreak being spread by a common communion cup.

The reason for this might be that people who attend church, who presumably have some care for the people they worship with, do take common sense precautions, like refraining from receiving when they’re feeling sick.

That’s why I don’t receive when I’m not feeling well, or even when I know there is something really nasty going around my kids’ school. I know that some people aren’t so particular, so I also don’t receive when some person right in front of me receives from the cup, in spite of having seemed to be attempting to cough up a lung after the Sign of Peace. Maybe they just got a little dust down the wrong pipe, but maybe not. I don’t see a reason to be cavalier about it. It is not as if I’m refraining from Holy Communion altogether.

At any rate, I don’t get sick any more often than I used to before I was an EMHC. Since we get to consume any of the Precious Blood that remains when Holy Communion is over, I don’t worry about it too much.

OTOH, if I get a cold, it wouldn’t be such a big deal. I fully respect others who see it differently.
I know that if I made a living on my voice, I would.

 

[FrDavid96]

Your joke is not logically related to the issue at hand. Cute, but no relation.

Actually, it’s directly related to some of the posts I’ve been reading here. When we hear that joke, it helps us to realize sometimes we take for granted that God will perform a miracle (whether it’s saving us from the flood, or from the flu), but we forget that sometimes we either have to help ourselves, or accept the help that He is giving. Expecting God to miraculously sanitize vessels because we’re receiving the Eucharist is no different than expecting Him to save us from a flood, and rejecting offers of rescue.

What we do at Mass realy makes us no more or less susceptible
to catching a cold (or something else) than we are at any other public place where the same numbers of people gather. There are just as many germs at church as there are at the supermarket, and we can catch or give those germs the same way.

We need to take common-sense precautions and use the knowlege that God has given us through our collective human intellect to prevent spreading diseases, and those precautions are basically the same no matter where we are. We also take risks wherever we go–and that includes going to Mass. That’s one of the consequences of living in a fallen world; we catch germs and we get sick. While we should take reasonable precautions at Church though, we shouldn’t become obsessed with a concern for germs to the point where it detracts from the Liturgy itself, and also, we shouldn’t fool ourselves into believing that an act which is less likely to spread germs (like receiving the Precious Blood) should be suspended while something more likely (the sign of peace) is ignored, simply because we “think” of it as being so.

 

[EasterJoy]

There are worse ways to die than by germs transmitted during the Eucharist.

Jesus didn’t seem to mind that His disciples did not wash their hands before they ate ordinary food.

If He didn’t seem to mind or will that they be concerned about germs and wash their hands before partaking of ordinary food–do you really think that He wills that people be concerned about germs when receiving Him in the Eucharist?

Well, yes, I do. The people of Jesus’ time who had bad immune systems probably all died in childhood. It is a different time now. Besides, I think the kind of washing that Jesus was not over-emphasizing was largely ceremonial in nature.

I don’t think I’ll die because of a common communion cup, but there are better reasons to die than a stubborn refusal to observe common sense rules of hygiene. Is it so much to ask that we refrain from one species when doing so might preserve someone from unnecessary suffering? If we are permitted to receive only one, is a desire to preserve health such a bad reason?

 

[Matrix_Refugee]

In reality, the most unsanitary thing to happen at Mass is the Sign of Peace because this is when everyone takes all the germs gathered from the home, the gas station on the way to church, the litter one picked-up from the sidewalk, the doorknob, the missalette (used by someone at the last Mass who had a realy nasty cold but you wouldn’t know that), and passes them along to the next person, who passes them along to the next person, who passes them along to the next person…(get the idea?)

One reason I’m not a fan of the Sign of Peace and why I keep my hands to myself during it: I once caught a nasty case of the flu that way, and I was trying to keep my hands to myself, but the coughing/sneezing/runny-eyed person in front of me turned around and put their hand on mine. There was one priest who recommended, one winter, that people should just bow their heads or wave to each other to avoid spreading germs and I wish more priests would do the same.

 

[LeroyCRHP]

I think you are worried about something else, do you seriously think she could get HIV this way?

I’ve never heard of anyone getting any disease from communion and with 1 billion Catholics around the world this would certainly be published. Maybe another special aspect of this sacrament.

Perhaps this has been discussed already.

Our parish has Communion under both species. At the mass we attend, there are about 500 people receiving the Precious Blood from 4 chalices.

Knowing what I do about communicable diseases, this seems like medical suicide.

My wife insists on being a Eucharistic minister, often distributing the Precious Blood, and then consuming the “leftovers” (no irreverence intended) once everyone else has received.

How long will it be until I get killer tuberculosis, hepatitis, HIV, the flu, or something else from kissing her?

I have expressed my concerns to her, but she persists.

Your thoughts are appreciated.

• Rob in Oregon

 

[jean8]

This is a common misconception, so I’ll try to give a more better-documented answer than usual.Mouthwashes generally run from 18 to 26% alcohol. However, the alcohol is mostly a solvent. The antimicrobial properties in these products are from other ingredients. And their purpose is to wash away excess food particles left in the mouth and reduce the bacterial count, not sterilize the mouth. The reason alcohol content in mouthwashes is so low is to prevent irritation of the mucus membranes in the mouth.

Actual sterilization generally takes 60% alcohol. I tried to find a definitive source with a websearch, but there was variation depending on the use - a site for barbers recommended 50-60% as an antiseptic, but most other sites I found recommended ~70%. Which happens to be the strength of normal rubbing alcohol at any pharmacy (if you go to the dollar store, it’ll probably only be 50%).

So unfortunately, the alcoholic content in wine falls far short of what is needed to effectively kill germs.

BlaineTog, I think you can find some other threads where type of wine used at mass is discussed, but the short of it is that any grape wine can be used. I doubt anything much above 20% could really be considered wine, and would thus be invalid matter.

Germs can be found on the bread also.
I watch my pastor lick his fingers while turning the pages of the book in front of him as He reads the text. at the altar. He then serves Holy Communion…

Pray about it. I do.

jean8

 

[panoikei]

What a great way to die.

 

[panoikei]

Personally, I believe this topic brings up justification for my debate that the Church should return to giving both species in the same manner as the Eastern Church.

Let me qualify this with the fact that even if only the priest were to distribute communion, eventually someone with a communicable disease will touch their tongue on the priest’s figure and then pass to another.

Can’t live in fear. It’s just not living.

 

[Digitonomy]

Germs can be found on the bread also.

I agree. Not sure what that has to do with my post, which documented why the alcohol content of communion wine is insufficient to effectively sterilize the cup.

panoikei:

Personally, I believe this topic brings up justification for my debate that the Church should return to giving both species in the same manner as the Eastern Church.

Since this practice is not uniform among the various Eastern Churches, which particular practice do you suggest should be imposed on the rest of the Church?

 

[Merkel]

Personally, I believe this topic brings up justification for my debate that the Church should return to giving both species in the same manner as the Eastern Church.

Let me qualify this with the fact that even if only the priest were to distribute communion, eventually someone with a communicable disease will touch their tongue on the priest’s figure and then pass to another.

Can’t live in fear. It’s just not living.

No way.

I have gotten colds from receiving sops via a spoon in the Byzantine Rite at least 3 times.

The spoon hits people’s lips, tongues and teeth VERY often. The uninitiated often suck on it by accident.

No, I think not.

 

[samcarter14]

No way.

I have gotten colds from receiving sops via a spoon in the Byzantine Rite at least 3 times.

The spoon hits people’s lips, tongues and teeth VERY often. The uninitiated often suck on it by accident.

No, I think not.

Hm. I’ve been receiving from the spoon in the Byzantine Rite now for a year, as has my entire family, and we have yet to get ill from it. We are more likely to get ill when my children play with kids whose parents don’t keep them home during an illness. At least, that’s been my experience.

When I think of the pain and suffering of a cold, it pales in comparison to the pain and suffering that Jesus endured out of love for us. I would never let my ‘fear’ of getting an illness keep me from the Eucharist.

 

[Matrix_Refugee]

My concern is these things transmitting illness to people with weakened immune systems, ie. people with HIV or kids with a rare genetic disorder that causes their immune system to be less than optimal.

 

[Merkel]

Hm. I’ve been receiving from the spoon in the Byzantine Rite now for a year, as has my entire family, and we have yet to get ill from it. We are more likely to get ill when my children play with kids whose parents don’t keep them home during an illness. At least, that’s been my experience.

When I think of the pain and suffering of a cold, it pales in comparison to the pain and suffering that Jesus endured out of love for us. I would never let my ‘fear’ of getting an illness keep me from the Eucharist.

I remember the first time I was at Divine Liturgy during cold/flu season. You could hear the coughing/sniffling over the singing. I though “aw, some of these people won’t be going up.” They certainly did. Then I thought “the grace of God will keep me from a cold” so I went up. Early that evening I had it…

 

[psr13]

I remember the first time I was at Divine Liturgy during cold/flu season. You could hear the coughing/sniffling over the singing. I though “aw, some of these people won’t be going up.” They certainly did. Then I thought “the grace of God will keep me from a cold” so I went up. Early that evening I had it…

Ummmmmmmmmmm, it takes longer than that for the bug to incubate. You didn’t get it from communion.

 

[Sarabande]

Ummmmmmmmmmm, it takes longer than that for the bug to incubate. You didn’t get it from communion.

Depending on the strain, it can take between 8-12 (or more) for a cold to incubate. And that’s less than a day.

 

[samcarter14]

I remember the first time I was at Divine Liturgy during cold/flu season. You could hear the coughing/sniffling over the singing. I though “aw, some of these people won’t be going up.” They certainly did. Then I thought “the grace of God will keep me from a cold” so I went up. Early that evening I had it…

It’s more likely that you caught the virus by touching the door handle, the pews, or anything that an infected person caught, than from the Communion spoon. You could have gotten the virus from the door handle when you entered the church.

I find that if my family washes their hands when they come home from being out–assuming they have not stuck said hands or fingers on their face, in their mouths or noses–they don’t get sick.

 

[rcballi46]

Jesus is wholly present (body & blood, etc…) in either the Host or the Precious Blood, then what’s the point of insisting to take part in both? (With respect: If I take the Host AND drink of the Precious Blood, am I receiving Him twice? Not that I mind - just asking). Hopefully receiving Him in Holy Communion worthily, in either form (or both), will result in an infusion of grace - not illness … He does have the power to prevent transmission of disease at any time and for any reason - and I pray He does so especially on that holy occasion.

 

[LISSETTE]

Dear Rob, peace! You are so right, there are germs floating around everywhere especially a cup that so many people drink from. So, we pray and just think about the Precious Blood of Christ, our Healer. Truly believe it from the bottom of the ground of your soul. Consume Him, the Eternal Life. That was His plan and intentions and He knew then, there would be many drinking from His Cup or several of His Cups. I understand believe me, I listen to this all the time and it saddens me as many pass me by when I hold the Precious Cup. Faith and believing that we are drinking true drink, His Precious blood. Your wife knows and she has that wisdom to continue trusting in the good Lord. Many times I had to drink His last drop.
God bless you always! Lissette

 

[Rob_in_Oregon]

Lissette, you say some nice things.

The irony is that my wife works as a hospital social worker. She tells me often of the terrible time hospitals have trying to prevent the spread of deadly bacteria amongst patients and staff.

There are bottles of alcohol hand sanitizer everywhere, and medical staff are expected to sanitize their hands after using a computer, after touching a doorknob, after handling a chart, after everything!

Many patients become infected with diseases like TB, antibiotic resistant flesh-eating staph bacteria, hepatitis, etc, while they are in the hospital for some other reason. Some of them die from those acquired infections.

I’m a man of faith, but I’m also practical. If Jesus is completely present under the species of bread, it isn’t necessary to receive from the cup. It’s nice, but not necessary.

Why take chances? God bless…

• Rob in Oregon

 

[otjm]

Jesus is wholly present (body & blood, etc…) in either the Host or the Precious Blood, then what’s the point of insisting to take part in both? (With respect: If I take the Host AND drink of the Precious Blood, am I receiving Him twice? Not that I mind - just asking). Hopefully receiving Him in Holy Communion worthily, in either form (or both), will result in an infusion of grace - not illness … He does have the power to prevent transmission of disease at any time and for any reason - and I pray He does so especially on that holy occasion.

The Church does not insist that people receive both the Host and the Cup. It does say that receiving under both species is a fuller sign of the Eucharist. Take the point this way: Christ did not have to give us the Eucharist under both species - He could have given it only under the form of bread. He chose to do otherwise; perhaps there is something here to be gained, to be understood, and perhaps a fuller way of partaking in what is both sacrifice and sacred meal?

The Council of Trent put a full stop to receiving under both species, and for a particular reason. They most certainly had the power to do so. But the Council of Trent did not institute the Eucharist; Christ did. I hear a lot of arguments that essentially go back to Trent, in somewhat the fashion of “if it is good enough for Trent, it is good enough for me”, and that is not an illegitimate statement - but perhaps the more important issue is, why did Christ institute it the way He did; what does that mean, particularly in light of the fact that the Church (as opposed to the Roman rite) has practiced it that way continuosly since He instituted it?

That is not to say that it is absolutely necessary, or that one is wrong if one chooses to receive only under one species. Trent settled that issue - because of something that was an issue between Protestants and Catholics at the time. And Trent did not settle it for the entire Church, but only for the Roman rite. I get the impression, however, that sometimes people put more emphasis on what Trent did than what Christ did. Maybe my impression is wrong, but it certainly seems to be reinforced from time to time.