Get Ready to Rumble....Play Ball

[stewstew03]

… but, arguably, does not mean the same thing to him. For me, I need more proof that he accepts or endorses a lifestyle contrary to Church teaching than just your word that your version of his story is the more accurate one.

On the one hand you want to feign certainty of meaning, but on the other hand you recognize that it’s “arguable”…

You can’t seem to see beyond your own politics.

If only all of us possessed such perspicaciousness… it must be lonely at the top, Mark…

.

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

On the one hand you want to feign certainty of meaning, but on the other hand you recognize that it’s “arguable”…

Stewstew, I think that if I wanted to feign certainty of meaning, I wouldn’t have used the word “arguable” in the first place, nor would I have employed the phrase “benefit of the doubt” earlier.

I couldn’t care less about certainty here. I’m more concerned with accuracy. It would be terrible to claim to be certain about something only to discover that one’s certainty was based on an inaccurate apprehension of things. That sort of false certainty is what some folks would call “delusion.” If you want to be certain about what you see, be sure first that you see it clearly.

Could you be right about Mr. Collins–that in “coming out” as “gay” he has knowingly and explictly endorsed a particular repertoire of deviant sexual behaviors? It’s possible. It’s also possible that such an endorsement was not part of his project when he wrote his article for Sports Illustrated. For the sake of accuracy and from the perspective of charity, admitting that other possibilities exist beyond our pet interpretations of things and refraining from jumping to too many conclusions too early seems to be the most circumspect (dare I say “perspicacious”?) route. That route was not taken in this thread.

If only all of us possessed such perspicaciousness… it must be lonely at the top, Mark…

I’m glad you aspire to a degree of perspicacity hitherto un-demonstrated by you on this thread! Though let’s be honest, there are much better models of perspicacity available to you than sinful little me. (Don’t worry, stewstew, your sarcasm was evident, but I chose to ignore it–sarcasm is the least interesting tool in the cynic’s rhetorical toolbox. Its use does not reflect well on you.)

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

Wow, that sucks.

C’est la vie.

Some poor kid, wakes up and finds himself with SSA and then the LGBT group says.,.you are one of us, you are gay…this denies free will and the ability to self determine life.

Sure…if you want it to. From a different perspective it could just mean you say to yourself, “Some folks think of me differently than the way I think of myself. I don’t think their way of thinking about me is quite accurate. I should be aware of that. I shouldn’t ignore it. In fact, I should engage with it and challenge it in the same way I engage with and challenge my own thinking about myself.”

Free will does not exist in a vacuum, nor does it spring sui generis from our own will-to-self-determine. We are not free to choose the challenges a day will bring us; we are not free to choose what choices we will be able to make in a day. Who and what we are is not determined solely by us in the vacuum of an inviolable “self,” but emerges (sometimes slowly, sometimes painfully) in the encounter between us and the world.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[CopticChristian]

Grace & Peace!

C’est la vie.

Free will does not exist in a vacuum, nor does it spring sui generis from our own will-to-self-determine. We are not free to choose the challenges a day will bring us; we are not free to choose what choices we will be able to make in a day. Who and what we are is not determined solely by us in the vacuum of an inviolable “self,” but emerges (sometimes slowly, sometimes painfully) in the encounter between us and the world.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

Sure…if you want it to. From a different perspective it could just mean you say to yourself, “Some folks think of me differently than the way I think of myself. I don’t think their way of thinking about me is quite accurate. I should be aware of that. I shouldn’t ignore it. In fact, I should engage with it and challenge it in the same way I engage with and challenge my own thinking about myself.”

and the kid says, my thinking is fine, my desires are different, and those guys over there think I belong to them and I shall engage with someone to help me not desire what is different because my thinking is fine and I don’t need any challenge to my thinking just these crazy desires that don’t seem to make sense…

 

[Robert_in_SD]

The question of belonging to a group is sometimes a tricky one.

It’s not a tricky one here. Mr. Collins came out as “gay.” To say to the world, “I’m gay.” is to say that you are self-identifying with the gay community. How Mr. Collins chooses to express his homosexuality in the privacy of his own bedroom is not relevant to his public act of self-identifying as gay.
Deo Volente:

However, I also understand that those distinctions [homosexual but not “gay”] are not universally made and that they apply, for the most part, to a very particular religio-political subculture which is heavily represented on these forums.

This is not a distinction that is limited to a particular religious or political group. It’s a FACT that many people who have same sex attraction choose NOT to self-identify as “gay.” Mr. Collins lived his life within this group until recently, when he announced to the world that he was “gay.” Doing so was a public act that endorsed a certain lifestyle.

DeoVolente:

But what we’re discussing is not so much whether Mr. Collins is gay-and-homosexual or homosexual-but-not-gay–what we’re really discussing is whether or not it is appropriate to apply these distinctions in a way which suggests that they are central to his story despite his own words which suggest that they are foreign to his own’ self-understanding.

In his own words, he identifies himself as “gay.” Read the Sports Illustrated article.
Deo Volente:

In other words, the discussion is about who gets to determine the terms by which Mr. Collins can tell his own story.

Mr. Collins chose the words of his own story. He chose to come out as “gay.” The word has meaning… a meaning that you are simply refusing to acknowledge. It’s not my political agenda that defines the term. It’s the gay community that defines the term.
Deo Volente:

You maintain that the terms by which his story should be understood are your own terms with their (relatively) peculiar and parochial meanings and usages. I maintain that the terms by which his story should be understood are his own terms and that those terms are identifiable by his own words.

Your attempt to marginalize me is fatally flawed by the fact that it’s not me who “labels” Mr. Collins as “gay.” He proudly came out as gay. Your attempt to somehow ignore the meaning of the word in today’s culture, and marginalize the facts underlying the meaning of the term falls flat.
Deo Volente:

So, for instance, you would say that because he identifies as “gay,” he must be endorsing a menu of sexual behaviors. I would say that because he identifies as “gay,” he is just indicating the drift of his affections because I find no evidence in his own words that “gay” to him means, “I endorse a menu of sexual behaviors.”

I am not making this argument. I’ve told you two or three times that this is not my argument. You can keep on attacking this straw man, but it’s not getting you anywhere.

DeoVolente:

Coming out as “gay” does not universally mean taking a position contrary to the Church unless the person coming out makes it explicit that he/she is taking positions contrary to the Church. I think it’s only Courage, it’s apostles, and members of similar and sympathetic religio-politcal subcultures which would make the claims regarding “coming out” that you make–because those are the groups that teach that sort of understanding. It’s not taught in the catechism.

The gay community holds that sexual acts between people of the same sex is moral and normal. The Church teaches the opposite. (See CCC 2357) You cannot hold directly contrary views at the same time.
Deo Volente:

The point is this: who tells the most authentic and accurate version of Mr. Collins’ story–you or Mr. Collins? If I wanted to know how Mr. Collins understand his sexuality or the word “gay,” would I go to you, or would I go to Mr. Collins?

I agree that Mr. Collins tells his story better than anyone else. He has come out as “gay.” It’s clear that he’s taking a position that is contrary to Church teaching by doing so. To say otherwise is to play ostrich.
Deo Volente:

You assume that Mr. Collins accepts a “lifestyle” contrary to Church teaching because he uses a particular word which means something to you but, arguably, does not mean the same thing to him. For me, I need more proof that he accepts or endorses a lifestyle contrary to Church teaching than just your word that your version of his story is the more accurate one.

Read his own words here.
Deo Volente:

You can’t seem to see beyond your own politics.

You can’t seem to see the truth for what it is. Mr. Collins has come out as gay. He is therefore stating that his beliefs regarding his own sexuality are directly contrary to the teaching of the Church. This has nothing to do with my politics, or my personal opinion. It is an objective truth.

Peace,
Robert

 

[Faithdancer]

I remember not so long ago when “hero” was a label reserved for someone who ran into a burning building to save a baby, someone who threw themselves in front of someone else to protect them from a mad gunman, things like that. The threshold has apparently been lowered now to the point where “hero” includes someone who publicly admits to regular sodomy.

 

[Elizabeth502]

I remember not so long ago when “hero” was a label reserved for someone who ran into a burning building to save a baby, someone who threw themselves in front of someone else to protect them from a mad gunman, things like that. The threshold has apparently been lowered now to the point where “hero” includes someone who publicly admits to regular sodomy.

Right, and while immorality is being equated to heroism, Satan is laughing his head off.

 

[90Domer]

And this has been eating at me since this story broke. And Manti Te’o, the Notre Dame athlete who got caught up in the cat fishing scam, was raked over the coals for his lack of virtue and the lies that he told. This is a guy who is a devout Mormon, thanks God and his family for all his accomplishments and always says to be a great leader, you have to be a great server.

So, Te’o is played up to be the most horrible person going, and Collins, a Sodomite, is seen as a hero, someone to be admired and respected. Well, I’ve said it before and I will say it again, I hope my son grows up to be like Manti Te’o, a humble young man who I know will do great things with his life.

 

[CopticChristian]

And this has been eating at me since this story broke. And Manti Te’o, the Notre Dame athlete who got caught up in the cat fishing scam, was raked over the coals for his lack of virtue and the lies that he told. This is a guy who is a devout Mormon, thanks God and his family for all his accomplishments and always says to be a great leader, you have to be a great server.

So, Te’o is played up to be the most horrible person going, and Collins, a Sodomite, is seen as a hero, someone to be admired and respected. Well, I’ve said it before and I will say it again, I hope my son grows up to be like Manti Te’o, a humble young man who I know will do great things with his life.

And,

If you look at further progress in the life of Jason Collins…he will be marching in the Boston Gay rights parade…kinda looking like he is not coming out saying

I have Same sex Attraction…

 

[90Domer]

And,

If you look at further progress in the life of Jason Collins…he will be marching in the Boston Gay rights parade…kinda looking like he is not coming out saying

I have Same sex Attraction…

I didn’t think for one second that he was coming out as a chaste man with same sex attraction. Honestly, what’s the point when the whole agenda is to normalize same sex sexual behavior. Collins would want to get the most bang for his buck when he “came out.” I’m sure he didn’t want to disappoint his new gay friends who are hailing him as a hero.

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

and the kid says, my thinking is fine, my desires are different, and those guys over there think I belong to them and I shall engage with someone to help me not desire what is different because my thinking is fine and I don’t need any challenge to my thinking just these crazy desires that don’t seem to make sense…

Sure, they can say that, too. Although anyone who would say, “my thinking is fine and I don’t need any challenge to my thinking,” must be quite young. In the young, such a sentiment could be excusable as representative of the general thoughtlessness of youth. As Eliot writes, “And youth is cruel, and has no remorse / And smiles at situations which it cannot see.”

In one more experienced, however, in one who ought to know better, “my thinking is fine and I don’t need any challenge to my thinking,” is the protest of one who never truly took to the time to know their own mind to begin with. It’s a cry of fear in the face of the unknown. Such thinking can never lead to self knowledge. It can lead to a kind of anemic certainty, sure…but there’s no life in it. It can lead to comfort, yes…but there’s no life in it. Once more, I’m put in mind of our friend TS Eliot:
We are the hollow men
We are the stuffed men
Leaning together
Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!
Our dried voices, when
We whisper together
Are quiet and meaningless
As wind in dry grass
Or rats feet over broken glass
Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

Mr. Collins came out as “gay.” To say to the world, “I’m gay.” is to say that you are self-identifying with the gay community.

Trust me, Robert. I know whereof I speak. To say, “I’m gay,” is not to say, “I identify with the ‘gay community.’” It is to say, “I’m attracted to people of my own sex.” Now, chances are that the nebulous “gay community” will nebulously embrace someone who’s made such a pronouncement, but one does not say, “I’m gay,” in order to identify with the “gay community.” Unless by “gay community” you mean, “gay friends,” in which case “I’m gay” may be a way of saying, “My desire looks like the desire of my friends.” But I don’t think that’s what you’re saying.

For a lot of folks who come out as gay, “gay community” doesn’t mean much of anything. What is the “gay community” to a kid in the sticks who’s just coming to an awareness of being same-sex attracted?

Maybe I’m just getting hung up on this “gay community” thing. It implies some sort of uniform and coherent social entity. But honestly, I’ve never actually seen that. I’ve never experienced the uniform and coherent social entity “The Gay Community.” I know gay people. I know of gay organizations. But are they all “the gay community” because they’re gay? Because some of those gay people want nothing to do with those organizations, and some of those organizations are interested in different sorts of gay people than the gay people I know. There are plenty of people on these forums that identify as gay (using that very word) but have committed themselves to celibacy because of their faith. Admirable! Are they part of “the gay community”? Is “the gay community” just a collective term you use for gay folks who aren’t celibate? In which case, aren’t you constructing the “gay community” on your own terms–i.e., aren’t you just making it up?

Perhaps we’d do better to speak of “gay communities” rather than a singular and monolithic “gay community.” But that could complicate, if not obviate, your point–so while speaking of “gay communities” may be more accurate, I can see why you’d be unwilling to do so.

This is not a distinction that is limited to a particular religious or political group. It’s a FACT that many people who have same sex attraction choose NOT to self-identify as “gay.” Mr. Collins lived his life within this group until recently, when he announced to the world that he was “gay.” Doing so was a public act that endorsed a certain lifestyle.

If you asked most people who had just come out if they were gay 5 minutes, 5 hours, or 5 years before they said, “I’m gay,” chances are very very very very good that they’d say, “Yes. Of course. I was just as gay yesterday as I am today. Are you being silly?”

If you followed up your question with, “Ah. So all along you’ve been secretly endorsing a certain lifestyle,” chances are they’d respond, “No. I’m being honest with you about the drift of my affections. That’s all. I don’t plan to live or endorse any special lifestyles. Are you still being silly?”

So I have to ask you: Are you honestly suggesting that Mr. Collins was not gay before he came out, but that in coming out, he wasn’t actually telling us that he was attracted to members of his own sex, he was actually meaning to endorse a particular lifestyle? Or are you just being silly?

In his own words, he identifies himself as “gay.” Read the Sports Illustrated article.t

Oh I know. And I have.

Mr. Collins chose the words of his own story. He chose to come out as “gay.” The word has meaning… a meaning that you are simply refusing to acknowledge. It’s not my political agenda that defines the term. It’s the gay community that defines the term.

The word has meaning. Yes. It has, in fact, many meanings. According to a particular religio-political subculture heavily represented on these forums, “gay” means some version of, “someone who endorses a lifestyle contrary to the Roman Catholic Church.” According to most other people, “gay” means, “attracted to people of the same sex.” Mr. Collins was using the word according to the latter meaning. You understand him to be using the word according to the former meaning. Subsequently, you insist that your understanding of the word is Mr. Collins’ understanding of the word. And you are wrong.

(CONTINUED…)

 

[Deo_Volente]

(…COMPLETED)

Your attempt to marginalize me is fatally flawed by the fact that it’s not me who “labels” Mr. Collins as “gay.” He proudly came out as gay. Your attempt to somehow ignore the meaning of the word in today’s culture, and marginalize the facts underlying the meaning of the term falls flat.

I’m not marginalizing you, Robert. But I am pointing out that your understanding of the term is marginal.

I am not making this argument. I’ve told you two or three times that this is not my argument. You can keep on attacking this straw man, but it’s not getting you anywhere.

You say that coming out as “gay” means you endorse a particular lifestyle. You say it means that he is identifying with the “gay community.” That is your understanding that you have expressed quite clearly. I have constructed no straw man.

Now. I’ll admit. Maybe I don’t understand what you mean by “lifestyle.” Maybe the gay “lifestyle” to you is giving oneself over to couture and witty banter. But I doubt it. Because you say:

The gay community holds that sexual acts between people of the same sex is moral and normal. The Church teaches the opposite. (See CCC 2357) You cannot hold directly contrary views at the same time.

I know what the RCC teaches. Is it your contention that Mr. Collins, conscious of RCC teaching, has deliberately identified as gay in an act of open rebellion to the RCC (and, more importantly, to God)? That sounds more like your version of his story. Because his narrative looks more like, “I’m attracted to other guys.” He doesn’t go into what sexual acts he may or may not considering. He doesn’t open the door to whatever sex life he may or may not have. He’s just saying, “I’m attracted to other guys,” and neither attraction to other guys, nor saying “I’m attracted to other guys,” is a sin in the RCC.

It’s clear that he’s taking a position that is contrary to Church teaching by doing so.

It’s clear to you and others who are acolytes of the particular religio-political subculture which defines “gay” the way you do. To everyone else, though…not so much.

Mr. Collins has come out as gay. He is therefore stating that his beliefs regarding his own sexuality are directly contrary to the teaching of the Church. This has nothing to do with my politics, or my personal opinion. It is an objective truth.

I’m sorry, Robert, but your politics has blinded you to anything that is not your politics. You see those politics in everything. Mr. Collins just said, “I’m attracted to other guys.” Time will tell the sort of life he wishes to lead and whether or not it is contrary to the teaching of the Church. In the meantime, there’s no virtue in rushing to judgment.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[CopticChristian]

Grace & Peace!

Sure, they can say that, too. Although anyone who would say, “my thinking is fine and I don’t need any challenge to my thinking,” must be quite young. In the young, such a sentiment could be excusable as representative of the general thoughtlessness of youth. As Eliot writes, “And youth is cruel, and has no remorse / And smiles at situations which it cannot see.”

In one more experienced, however, in one who ought to know better, “my thinking is fine and I don’t need any challenge to my thinking,” is the protest of one who never truly took to the time to know their own mind to begin with. It’s a cry of fear in the face of the unknown. Such thinking can never lead to self knowledge. It can lead to a kind of anemic certainty, sure…but there’s no life in it. It can lead to comfort, yes…but there’s no life in it. Once more, I’m put in mind of our friend TS Eliot:
We are the hollow men
We are the stuffed men
Leaning together
Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!
Our dried voices, when
We whisper together
Are quiet and meaningless
As wind in dry grass
Or rats feet over broken glass
Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

Fortunately a young person can go to their parents and say hey these crazy thoughts are in my head can you help me for they are not alone…

 

[CopticChristian]

(…COMPLETED)

I’m not marginalizing you, Robert. But I am pointing out that your understanding of the term is marginal.

You say that coming out as “gay” means you endorse a particular lifestyle. You say it means that he is identifying with the “gay community.” That is your understanding that you have expressed quite clearly. I have constructed no straw man.

Now. I’ll admit. Maybe I don’t understand what you mean by “lifestyle.” Maybe the gay “lifestyle” to you is giving oneself over to couture and witty banter. But I doubt it. Because you say:

I know what the RCC teaches. Is it your contention that Mr. Collins, conscious of RCC teaching, has deliberately identified as gay in an act of open rebellion to the RCC (and, more importantly, to God)? That sounds more like your version of his story. Because his narrative looks more like, “I’m attracted to other guys.” He doesn’t go into what sexual acts he may or may not considering. He doesn’t open the door to whatever sex life he may or may not have. He’s just saying, “I’m attracted to other guys,” and neither attraction to other guys, nor saying “I’m attracted to other guys,” is a sin in the RCC.

It’s clear to you and others who are acolytes of the particular religio-political subculture which defines “gay” the way you do. To everyone else, though…not so much.

I’m sorry, Robert, but your politics has blinded you to anything that is not your politics. You see those politics in everything. Mr. Collins just said, “I’m attracted to other guys.” Time will tell the sort of life he wishes to lead and whether or not it is contrary to the teaching of the Church. In the meantime, there’s no virtue in rushing to judgment.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

Well,

With all the gay this and gay that and LGBT and marching in gay pride and gay rights I would imagine a kid looking at what is gay would have trouble choosing which gay what to look to…

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Trust me, Robert. I know whereof I speak. To say, “I’m gay,” is not to say, “I identify with the ‘gay community.’” It is to say, “I’m attracted to people of my own sex.”

Deo, your comment is at best a gross understatement of what “coming out” is. One is not simply making a public confession that one is attracted to people of one’s own sex. The clear statement one makes by “coming out” as Mr. Collins did is that there is nothing immoral or wrong about same-sex conduct. That is where Mr. Collins’ action becomes a very public political and social statement.

Deo:

For a lot of folks who come out as gay, “gay community” doesn’t mean much of anything. What is the “gay community” to a kid in the sticks who’s just coming to an awareness of being same-sex attracted?

It is a community with whom the kid identifies, and may look to for support and guidance, because it is a community that advocates on many levels for the acceptance of same-sex sexual relationships as moral and good.

Deo:

Maybe I’m just getting hung up on this “gay community” thing. It implies some sort of uniform and coherent social entity.

I’m not implying anything other than a shared general belief among those who self-identify as “gay” - that sexual acts between members of the same sex are moral and not objectively sinful. Mr. Collins’ article certainly makes it clear that he falls into this group. He wants/hopes to marry another man some day. If he’s contemplating marriage to someone of the same sex, it’s clear that he believes there’s nothing immoral about it.

Deo:

But honestly, I’ve never actually seen that. I’ve never experienced the uniform and coherent social entity “The Gay Community.” …aren’t you constructing the “gay community” on your own terms–i.e., aren’t you just making it up?

Not at all. I’m recognizing the term “gay” for what it means among those that use it. If someone announces in the media that they are “gay” that means far more than stating, “I find that I am attracted to people of my sex.” The former carries the implication I’ve been reiterating, and that Mr. Collins capably expressed in his article in SI - i.e. that sexual acts between people of the same sex are not immoral.

Deo:

Perhaps we’d do better to speak of “gay communities” rather than a singular and monolithic “gay community.” But that could complicate, if not obviate, your point–so while speaking of “gay communities” may be more accurate, I can see why you’d be unwilling to do so.

I have no problem recognizing sub-groups within the larger gay community. (They all seem to have their own flag, which makes their recognition all the more easy.) But I think you’re caught up in the details without seeing the big picture.

Deo:

If you asked most people who had just come out if they were gay 5 minutes, 5 hours, or 5 years before they said, “I’m gay,” chances are very very very very good that they’d say, “Yes. Of course. I was just as gay yesterday as I am today. Are you being silly?” … So I have to ask you: Are you honestly suggesting that Mr. Collins was not gay before he came out, but that in coming out, he wasn’t actually telling us that he was attracted to members of his own sex, he was actually meaning to endorse a particular lifestyle? Or are you just being silly?

Again, I think you’re being naive to suggest that Mr. Collins was the same person 5 years ago as he was when he made the decision to publicly announce to the world that he was “gay.” In his article he discusses feelings of attraction to men from his early years. And he describes the struggle of announcing this to the world. It’s also clear that Collins recognized that “coming out” was more than just announcing that he is sexually attracted to men. It was a public announcement that not only is he sexually attracted to men, but that sexual intimacy between two men is simply an alternative lifestyle that is not morally wrong. The fact that the term “gay” may be used by some people, including those who self-identify as “gay” to describe thoughts and feelings about all of this before coming out publicly, does not diminish this fact.

Deo:

According to most other people, “gay” means, “attracted to people of the same sex.” Mr. Collins was using the word according to the latter meaning.

Self-identifying yourself with the term “gay” is doing much more than simply stating that you are sexually attracted to people of the same sex. You know it. I know it. And Mr. Collins knew it when he came out.

(Continued)

 

[Robert_in_SD]

I’m not marginalizing you, Robert. But I am pointing out that your understanding of the term is marginal.

Back atcha’ Deo. I think you’re making a ridiculously naive statement about what the term “gay” means.

STRAW MAN ALERT!!!

Deo:

Is it your contention that Mr. Collins, conscious of RCC teaching, has deliberately identified as gay in an act of open rebellion to the RCC (and, more importantly, to God)?

Please take that huge chip off of your shoulder, then please go back and carefully read my posts. I don’t know Mr. Collins’ religious background, nor am I making any sort of accusation about his intention to rebel against the Catholic Church. My only point, and it is a narrow one, is that Mr. Collins’ act of “coming out” amounts to the taking of a moral position that contradicts Church teaching. I never said that his intention was to rebel against Church teaching. He may not even know what the Catholic Church teaches about homosexuality and homosexual acts. I’m not condemning Mr. Collins as you seem to think.

Deo:

He’s just saying, “I’m attracted to other guys,” and neither attraction to other guys, nor saying “I’m attracted to other guys,” is a sin in the RCC.

His article goes beyond merely stating attraction. It states the moral acceptability of the acts that are contemplated by that sexual attraction. From the article:

I realized I needed to go public when Joe Kennedy, my old roommate at Stanford and now a Massachusetts congressman, told me he had just marched in Boston’s 2012 Gay Pride Parade. I’m seldom jealous of others, but hearing what Joe had done filled me with envy. I was proud of him for participating but angry that as a closeted gay man I couldn’t even cheer my straight friend on as a spectator. If I’d been questioned, I would have concocted half truths. What a shame to have to lie at a celebration of pride. I want to do the right thing and not hide anymore. I want to march for tolerance, acceptance and understanding. I want to take a stand and say, “Me, too.”

Read More: sportsillustrated.cnn.com/magazine/news/20130429/jason-collins-gay-nba-player/#ixzz2SY7wEK3w

and

I feel blessed that I recognized my own attractions. Though I resisted my impulses through high school, I knew that when I was ready I had someone to turn to: my uncle Mark in New York. I knew we could talk without judgment, and we did last summer. Uncle Mark is gay. He and his partner have been in a stable relationship forever. For a confused young boy, I can think of no better role model of love and compassion.

Read More: sportsillustrated.cnn.com/magazine/news/20130429/jason-collins-gay-nba-player/#ixzz2SY9CaegZ

Deo:

I’m sorry, Robert, but your politics has blinded you to anything that is not your politics. You see those politics in everything. Mr. Collins just said, “I’m attracted to other guys.” Time will tell the sort of life he wishes to lead and whether or not it is contrary to the teaching of the Church. In the meantime, there’s no virtue in rushing to judgment.

Deo. Your own politics have blinded you, even to the fact that you have any politics. I’m reading Mr. Collins article and watching the news. And to me it’s clear that he is now condoning a lifestyle that is contrary to church teaching, whether he has actually engaged in immoral conduct or not. As I said above, I’m not judging Mr. Collins. I wish him a joyful and blessed life. On the other hand, you seem quick to judge me and anyone else that does not see it your way.

Peace,
Robert

 

[antag]

Deo, your comment is at best a gross understatement of what “coming out” is. One is not simply making a public confession that one is attracted to people of one’s own sex. The clear statement one makes by “coming out” as Mr. Collins did is that there is nothing immoral or wrong about same-sex conduct. That is where Mr. Collins’ action becomes a very public political and social statement.

I love how (supposedly) straight people take it upon themselves to know what ‘coming out’ means to a gay person.

Let me tell you this: when I ‘came out’ - I did so without ever having done anything ‘gay’ with any other man. I didn’t sign up to a political philosophy. I didn’t immediately rush off and find the nearest gay pride march to flounce about it. I didn’t immediately switch my real life political vote to those who support abortion or euthanasia. I didn’t suddenly cease to believe in God.

I ‘came out’ because I was fed up of living a life where I didn’t meet up with other people’s expectations, because it was easier to tell the truth rather than answer the ‘why haven’t you find a girlfriend yet’ question with an evasive ‘because I havent found her yet’ answer. Lying by omission is every bit as much as lying by commission. I was living a lie by not acknowledging my sexuality.

So please, don’t you, a straight person, presume to know what the motives are for a gay person ‘coming out’. You can never experience that sense of ‘otherness’ that a gay person feels. You can never experience the knowledge that every new person you meet will presume something about you that isn’t actually true. You will never have to endure, in the normal course of social interaction, the dread that someone will ask an innocuous question that will leave you wondering whether you need to ‘come out’ yet again to another person or whether you need to avoid that particular ‘domestic enquiry’ with yet another lie or evasion or gender non-specific pronoun.

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

I’m not implying anything other than a shared general belief among those who self-identify as “gay” - that sexual acts between members of the same sex are moral and not objectively sinful. Mr. Collins’ article certainly makes it clear that he falls into this group. He wants/hopes to marry another man some day. If he’s contemplating marriage to someone of the same sex, it’s clear that he believes there’s nothing immoral about it.

I guess it all comes down to this, no? Someone says, “I’m gay,” and you hear, “I endorse a particular repertoire of sexual behaviors and/or political positions.” I didn’t see him talk about sex in his article, so I was generally unwilling to assume anything about his sex life. You seem more willing to make those assumptions based solely on your religio-political reading of the word “gay.”

He may indeed like to marry another man some day. As a Roman Catholic, you know that that is “marriage” in name only–i.e., he wishes to avail himself of the rights and responsibilities the state understands by the term “marriage” should he find someone with whom he wishes to share his life and who wishes to share their life with him. I don’t see where sexual sin is necessitated in such an arrangement–certainly heterosexual marriage does not provide an imprimatur on sexual sins which occur in such a relationship, so why should it be any different in a same-sex “marriage?”

By the way, there are plenty of gay folks who don’t believe in same-sex marriage, but they still persist in calling themselves “gay.” Why? Because, as I’ve stated over and over in this thread, “gay” is the popular and colloquial term for one who is same-sex attracted. Identifying as “gay” doesn’t mean identifying with a particular political platform, whatever it may be.

Now. Mr. Collins’ does indeed appear to support same-sex marriage. But it’s not because he identifies as “gay.” Plenty of heterosexuals are all for same-sex marriage. Plenty of gay folks don’t want it or couldn’t care less (I understand, though, that your religio-political position would lead you to understand otherwise). What would account for Mr. Collins’ support of same-sex marriage? Given that his identifying as gay is no guarantee that he’ll believe in any particular political position, perhaps he’s just someone who was brought up to aspire to married, so now that it’s available to him in his situation, that’s what he aspires to. I don’t know. He hasn’t explicitly explained himself in that regard.

Whatever Mr. Collins’ political positions on any number of topics, none of them are necessitated by the fact that he refers to himself as “gay.” But you would see them as necessarily arising from his choice of nomenclature. Reality does not support you on this, Robert, because there are plenty of self-identified gay folks who do not agree with Mr. Collins’ politics insofar as he has expressed them in his article.

It may surprise you to learn this, Robert, but: There is no gay hive mind.

Your own politics have blinded you, even to the fact that you have any politics. I’m reading Mr. Collins article and watching the news. And to me it’s clear that he is now condoning a lifestyle that is contrary to church teaching, whether he has actually engaged in immoral conduct or not. As I said above, I’m not judging Mr. Collins. I wish him a joyful and blessed life. On the other hand, you seem quick to judge me and anyone else that does not see it your way.

Robert, I’m quite aware of my own politics (I never said I was anti- or a-political). I’m also quite aware that I cannot assume that most people share my politics. But making that assumption does not appear to give you pause. So be it.

Moreover, I’m not judging you–I’m pointing out that your religio-political views are leading you to draw a particular series of conclusions based on a partisan and non-normative understanding of the word “gay.” The conclusions you draw regarding Mr. Collins’ politics may indeed be accurate. But they are not accurate simply because of Mr. Collins’ choice of vocabulary–anyone outside these forums who wished to say they were same-sex attracted would say they were gay because that’s what the word means in the world beyond these forums. But not all of those gay folks would agree with Mr. Collins’ politics, whatever they are and however he might articulate them.

Again, there is no gay hive mind, regardless of what your particular brand of politics may encourage you to believe to the contrary.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[fix]

Well,

To balance the scales we need a male or female athlete talking about how robust their normal sex lives are in a public forum.

Imagine…

That was a great fight you had there, it was tight in the 3rd round, but you came away with a choke hold and now you are ready for the title…do you want to talk us through this…

Yes…last night, you know I love my wife, she and I are normally attracted and my mind goes wild when I see her in a night dress…we have regular, normal consensual sex, the night before a fight and we are sexually attracted to each other as male and female and as I get ready for the fight I always imagine her nude…

then when I start fighting…

IOW, it us all about me. Hey look at me and my personal issues. Me, Me, Me, Me…please look at me and my sexuality. I am so proud of me.