Getting confused, what is evil? St Augustine states

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*To say that something is evil, then, is a shorthand way of saying it either lacks goodness, or is a lower order of goodness than what ought to have been. But the question remains: “Whence and how crept it in hither?”

Augustine observed that evil could not be chosen because there is no evil thing to choose. One can only turn away from the good, that is from a greater good to a lesser good (in Augustine’s hierarchy) since all things are good. “For when the will abandons what is above itself, and turns to what is lower, it becomes evil–not because that is evil to which it turns, but because the turning itself is wicked.”[iv]
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I.e. evil is the lack of good brought about by our free will and was not created by God. It is not a ‘thing’ in that it was not created. However, I thought evil was from satan and/or is he the ‘temptor’ to cause immoral actions that lower the order of goodness hence evil? Just confused about this, as satan is referred to on numerous occassions as having a lot to do with evil, our Lord’s passion, Judas’s betrayal etc…

Any comments most welcome. Thanks :confused:
 
Remember, the angels fell before man was created. So in a sense, satan was the first to use his free will to reject the good. It was not “our free will” that came first.
:o
 
So MarcoPolo in essence Satan was the first to ‘generate’ evil by dissobedience through use of his free will and then man through Adam and Eve. So, if Adam and EVe had not sinned I assume Satan would not have been allowed to tempt humans - or would he, as I assume he did so in the Garden of Eden? I mean would Satan have been allowed to continue to tempt humans as he did with Adam and Eve if they had not sinned, which could be assumed that someone along the line would sin eventually.

As we are all born with original sin - but A and E were not and they still sinned, is it feasible that any of mankind could have sinned if A and E had not sinned, i.e. if we were all born free of original sin?

Hence is Satan a temptor to ‘increase’ our capacity to sin BUT in theory we as individuals choose to sin - OR if Adam and Eve had not sinned would our free will not enable us to sin because Satan would not be allowed to tempt us?

I know this is not written well and confusing my apologies.
Thanks
 
pepipop said:
So MarcoPolo in essence Satan was the first to ‘generate’ evil by dissobedience through use of his free will and then man through Adam and Eve. So, if Adam and EVe had not sinned I assume Satan would not have been allowed to tempt humans - or would he, as I assume he did so in the Garden of Eden? I mean would Satan have been allowed to continue to tempt humans as he did with Adam and Eve if they had not sinned, which could be assumed that someone along the line would sin eventually.

As we are all born with original sin - but A and E were not and they still sinned, is it feasible that any of mankind could have sinned if A and E had not sinned, i.e. if we were all born free of original sin?

Hence is Satan a temptor to ‘increase’ our capacity to sin BUT in theory we as individuals choose to sin - OR if Adam and Eve had not sinned would our free will not enable us to sin because Satan would not be allowed to tempt us?

I know this is not written well and confusing my apologies.
Thanks
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It is hard to say exactly what would have happened if Adam and Eve had not sinned. Would God have vanquished all Satan’s influence forever at that point as He will once the new heaven and new earth are actualized? Perhaps. Or would God permit Satan to continue to tempt Adam and Eve’s offspring and man’s fall came later? Perhaps. I’m sure an argument could be made for either, but ultimately it is speculation of “what would God have allowed.”
 
I think what I was trying to say is, are we always capable of sinning because we have free will? I know I am getting myself confused here, but if satan could sin and was God’s top angel - could we still sin in heaven as we will have free will? Or, is the fact we sin on earth due to the original temptation of satan to Adam and Eve and he will not be present if we get to heaven.

I think it comes back to my original query, is evil the lessening of good as per ST Augustine or from satan’s influence by bringing sin into the world? I can only assume it is the latter of the two.

I am rambling on to myself now.
 
pepipop said:
could we still sin in heaven as we will have free will? Or, is the fact we sin on earth due to the original temptation of satan to Adam and Eve and he will not be present if we get to heaven.
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According to many theologians, the influence to sin is due to the world, the flesh, and the devil—none of which will exist in heaven (the world and the flesh will be transformed from what they are now once there is a new heaven and new earth).

As to the will, I believe the heavenly nature is perfected over and above the condition of Adam and Eve in the garden. The way I understand free will in heaven is that our free will is perfected such that no choice of sin will ever occur. The will, will be by nature, forever ordered to God.
 
In his retractions,which he wrote to retract and or clear up his earlier teachings, St. Augustine wrote:
Chapter 4.— Evil is Corruption of Measure, Form, or Order (newadvent.org/fathers/1407.htm )

When accordingly it is inquired, whence is evil, it must first be inquired, what is evil, which is nothing else than corruption, either of the measure, or the form, or the order, that belong to nature. Nature therefore which has been corrupted, is called evil, for assuredly when incorrupt it is good; but even when corrupt, so far as it is nature it is good, so far as it is corrupted it is evil.
 
pepipop said:
but if satan could sin and was God’s top angel - could we still sin in heaven as we will have free will? Or, is the fact we sin on earth due to the original temptation of satan to Adam and Eve and he will not be present if we get to heaven.
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Evil came into the world, not into heaven.

No we will not be able to sin in heaven. We will be absolutely pure. We will have already chosen to believe.
 
larsenl1 said:
Evil came into the world, not into heaven.

No we will not be able to sin in heaven. We will be absolutely pure. We will have already chosen to believe.
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But i thought Satan sinned in heaven?
 
pepipop said:
But i thought Satan sinned in heaven?
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As I understand, either Satan was vanquished as soon as sin existed…or the heaven in which Satan dwelled then is not identical to the final heaven that we shall enter (the new heaven and new earth as Scripture says). Similarly, as soon as Adam and Eve sinned in the pure garden, they were booted out as well in demonstration that God’s dwelling place is incompatible with sin.
 
MarcoPolo said:
As I understand, either Satan was vanquished as soon as sin existed…or the heaven in which Satan dwelled then is not identical to the final heaven that we shall enter (the new heaven and new earth as Scripture says). Similarly, as soon as Adam and Eve sinned in the pure garden, they were booted out as well in demonstration that God’s dwelling place is incompatible with sin.
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👍
 
MarcoPolo said:
As I understand, either Satan was vanquished as soon as sin existed…or the heaven in which Satan dwelled then is not identical to the final heaven that we shall enter (the new heaven and new earth as Scripture says). Similarly, as soon as Adam and Eve sinned in the pure garden, they were booted out as well in demonstration that God’s dwelling place is incompatible with sin.
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sounds good to me!
 
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