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Plmokn
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Careful with that. You may make them hate going to church (as opposed to wanting to be good the next time they are there).
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Xanthippe_Voorhees
Guest
Again there is a huge difference between running around without any manners because the church should be a pleasant place. Perhaps part of the issue here is the parents are afraid to discipline the kids for their age-inappropriate behavior. 3 and running off down the asile once? Maybe. But not at 5.5.Psychae:
Careful with that. You may make them hate going to church (as opposed to wanting to be good the next time they are there).
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Plmokn
Guest
You are exactly right with regards to this. I started thinking about this situation and remembered that when I was a 5 year old, my parents didn’t really have any problems with me or my siblings (close in age) behaving in church. I asked my mom if I was recollecting correctly, and she indicated I was. I think it was because they used to take us to all kinds of places, from the time we were toddlers, (restaurants, museums, theaters) where good discipline was required and expected. Church was just another place on the list, with regards to behavior. I would suggest making sure discipline is consistent across the board, and at all times. If you don’t do that, and then expect it to be effective in the church setting, it probably won’t go well. Incidentally, there was no punishment or negative disciplining. We were taught this is how it is done, similar to how you brush your teeth or eat your breakfast.
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Plmokn
Guest
Yes. Exactly. If a child isn’t able to behave properly in church, for whatever reason, don’t take them. Instead, take them to a restaurant or the movies and start there. The worst thing you can do is bring a child to church and make it a negative experience for them. They will grow up hating it and it may stick with them for life. Teach them discipline in other places. Then all you have to do is educate them as to what is appropriate behavior in church. It seems to me like OP needs to work on teaching her kids discipline. Church isn’t the place to do that. There is a difference between discipline/self-control vs. knowing and understanding what appropriate behavior is. The latter can be done while at church, no problem. The former needs to be addressed away from church. Otherwise you are bringing your children into church without the tools to behave properly.
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TheLittleLady
Guest
Standing ovation of applause for this one!
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Xanthippe_Voorhees
Guest
Again, maybe for the 3yo. At 5.5 these children are expected (and must) behave other places. If they do behave at all the “nice” places to go it’s pure manipulation that they are not behaving during Mass.
5.5 is Kindergarten or first grade. Where I grew up, and where I live now, 1st grade is an integral part of 1st reconciliation and 1st Communion prep. My friend lives in a diocese with “restored order” so it also includes Confirmation prep.
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Plmokn
Guest
Agreed. My point is that either they have not been taught the discipline to sit still any place, or they are being manipulative by misbehaving during mass. If they are being manipulative, it is a sign that they are not ready to go to mass. It will turn into a battle and the kids will learn to hate Mass which is to be avoided at all costs. We take children to church when they are young to hopefully put them on a trajectory for lifelong spiritual seeking and if they are opposed to stepping foot in a church that’s not going to happen.
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Xanthippe_Voorhees
Guest
If they are manipulating their parents by misbehaving during Mass then they shouldn’t go?
Ummm.
So if they misbehave during school, they shouldn’t go to school?
If they misbehave when visiting an elderly relative they shouldn’t have to visit?
At a tiny age (under 3) a “break” from Mass may be in order, but we’re talking about children who are preparing to receive major church sacraments. Delaying confession far past the age of reason would be a cruelty—but how in the world are you going to prepare a child for Confession/Communion/Confirmation if they never darken the door of Church?
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Plmokn
Guest
The way I see it, church is on a different level than those other places you mentioned. Church is a place that you never want your child to dread going because they’re being asked to do something that is too hard while they are there. Church is a place, that I assume, parents believe is more important than the other places. It deserves special handling. You want to set your kids up to be successful in this. If you have not done the hard work of teaching them to self-monitor and be disciplined, then it is unfair to take them to a place that you expect them to have a positive attitude about and where they are required to display discipline and self-control. I think all five year olds are capable of going to mass because all five year olds are capable of being taught self-discipline. This really isn’t about the child, it is about the parent. Parenting skills are hard sometimes. Consistency is key. If your child is undisciplined outside of church, you can’t expect them to be self-discipline inside of church. Maybe that is the problem with schools these days. Parents send their kids off with no discipline and expect them to be disciplined while in school. It just doesn’t work that way. And as a side note, I believe sacraments in the Catholic church are administered way too early in the development of a child for them to fully understand and comprehend the importance of it. I don’t understand what the huge rush is in the Catholic Community for this.
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Xanthippe_Voorhees
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Expectations to behave must be set up, but since the OP seems to only have an issue at Mass, we’ll give her the credit that her children are otherwise in her control.
But no matter what you do, no matter how old or well-behaved your child is you’re going to have to discipline them at church at some point. They will need to learn the rules and be reprimanded. Heck, even the first-timers at Lifeteen need to be educated and often reprimanded for disrupted or undesirable behavior.
We expect 5-year-olds to behave in school. They can behave for a whole (very active) hour at Mass. Like I stated before, barring neuro-deficiencies.
About why we have sacraments at a young age. Early Elementary teachers actually identify a window of time between ages 6-8 in the typical child that a major learning change happens. Children stop “learning to read” and begin “reading to learn” among other major neurological changes. Cognitively once this leap is made the child no longer relies on infantile learning associations but begins to make deeper connections and formative learning principles. Younger children are capable of “trying on” these newer ways of making connections. Older children sometimes regress.
But there IS justification in the neuroscience world for the age of reason to fall between 6-9. The brain has massive changes during that time.
Which means that there is a need for the child to have access to the sacraments.
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Allegra
Guest
I get 5-and-a-half-year-olds to sit still for a living. Barring some sort of behavioral or medical issue, it usually isn’t too hard to get a child of that age to sit still for an hour long Mass.
Step One: Fullfill all physical needs ahead of time. Make sure they have ample sleep, are fed, been to the bathroom, noses wiped etc.
Step Two: Remove distractions and temptations. Don’t give them toys, books, food, ipads, etc.
Step Three: Give them something that you actually want them to focus on. For Mass, teach them the songs and responses ahead of time. Tell them what the readings are going to be about. Sit up where they can see the priest and the altar. Outside of Mass time, talk about the icons and images in the church and tell them what they mean. Remind them that they can look at them during Mass and think about the Mysteries. Ask Father if he will give them a “tour” of the altar and tell them what the different things used during Mass are for. Then during Mass, they will understand what’s going on. In the car on the way to Mass, suggest things and people they can pray for in Mass. Assign them a prayer mission!
Step Four: During Mass, continuously assess their needs. Are they getting distracted? Point out something in the church and remind them what it’s for. Have them follow along the words of the Gosple in your missal. Move one to the other side so his brother isn’t a distraction. Remind them to pray for grandma in the hospital.
Step Five: Reinforce good behavior with a reward. My kids like lighting a prayer candle and playing on “Jesus’ playground.”
Step One: Fullfill all physical needs ahead of time. Make sure they have ample sleep, are fed, been to the bathroom, noses wiped etc.
Step Two: Remove distractions and temptations. Don’t give them toys, books, food, ipads, etc.
Step Three: Give them something that you actually want them to focus on. For Mass, teach them the songs and responses ahead of time. Tell them what the readings are going to be about. Sit up where they can see the priest and the altar. Outside of Mass time, talk about the icons and images in the church and tell them what they mean. Remind them that they can look at them during Mass and think about the Mysteries. Ask Father if he will give them a “tour” of the altar and tell them what the different things used during Mass are for. Then during Mass, they will understand what’s going on. In the car on the way to Mass, suggest things and people they can pray for in Mass. Assign them a prayer mission!
Step Four: During Mass, continuously assess their needs. Are they getting distracted? Point out something in the church and remind them what it’s for. Have them follow along the words of the Gosple in your missal. Move one to the other side so his brother isn’t a distraction. Remind them to pray for grandma in the hospital.
Step Five: Reinforce good behavior with a reward. My kids like lighting a prayer candle and playing on “Jesus’ playground.”
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Xanthippe_Voorhees
Guest
Thanks. This is basically what I also said.
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Allegra
Guest
True. Some kids are different.
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Clementine14
Guest
While in general, five year olds are capable of behaving at Mass, try not to generalize. There are children who are not neurotypical and you cannot tell by appearance. It does not sound like the OP is dealing with this, but don’t assume that if a child is misbehaving that it is automatically the parent’s lack of discipline.
I also do not believe that making your child behave at Mass will make them “dread” it. Most kids find Mass boring at one time or another. Along with grocery shopping, going to Home Depot, going to school, picking up toys, visiting relatives, brushing teeth, and the million other things kids would rather not do. While young children are not “required” to go, I’d rather not send my son the message that because he doesn’t want to, he doesn’t have to. Because that is going to change when he is a little older, and I would rather he understood that Mass is a very important obligation.
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