Getting married if a couple have already had sex. Wearing white if the woman is not a virgin

[EmilyAlexandra]

This is one of those questions to which I know that there will not be any one answer on which everyone will agree. However, I’d be interested to hear the range of opinions.

I think my mother has some strange ideas. She’s not Catholic, although she did consider converting and also considered becoming a nun. Since Catholicism has conservative views about sexual morality, I am curious to know whether Catholics would tend to agree or disagree with my mother and on what grounds.

This is what she says:

1. If a couple have already had sex, there is no point in getting married. Basically, the only reason for getting married is so that you can have sex in its only proper context, namely, marriage. Therefore, if you have already had sex, there is no point in getting married.
2. The above applies to civil marriage. With regard to religious marriage, not only is there no point in getting married, but the couple should actually not be allowed to get married. It “disgraces” the church when fornicators marry.
3. A woman should not be allowed to wear white if she is not a virgin. Wearing white is a privilege reserved for virgins. If a woman is not a virgin on her wedding day, she should wear a coloured dress. Since wearing white is the norm in our culture, coloured wedding dresses would effectively advertise when the bride is not a virgin.

From my understanding of Christianity in general, and some knowledge of Catholicism specifically, I am imagining (hoping?) that people would say the following:

1. There are plenty of reasons why a couple would want to get married. Some are purely practical considerations, e.g. the right to inherit property, the right to a pension, and the right to be recognised as next of kin. For most people, marriage is also seen as an added level of commitment imposing specific obligations, such as sticking with each other through thick and thin and being faithful until death. For many Christians, marriage is also considered to be a sacrament.
2. and 3. Jesus was always talking about forgiving people, not judging, and letting him who is without sin cast the first stone. I cannot believe that Jesus would want people to be made to suffer for the rest of their lives on account of committing a sin, and nor can I believe that he would want somebody to be effectively subjected to a ritual humiliation on what is supposed to be one of the happiest days of her life.

As I say, I am curious to know what people think, as I read so much on these forums about marriage and sexual morality. Perhaps it will also help me to rebut her arguments next time she is harping on about it (which is basically every time somebody gets married).

 

[1ke]

As I say, I am curious to know what people think

Your mother has strange ideas, none of which are grounded in reality or Catholic teaching.

 

[EmilyAlexandra]

Your mother has strange ideas, none of which are grounded in reality or Catholic teaching.

I would agree with that. She would not claim that her beliefs are grounded in Catholic teaching, as she is not keen on Catholicism anyway, but she would presumably try to argue that her ideas are grounded in reality!

 

[Lea101]

Basically, the only reason for getting married is so that you can have sex in its only proper context, namely, marriage. Therefore, if you have already had sex, there is no point in getting married

Well this is just silly because that’s not the point of marriage. A look at the vows is enough.

The above applies to civil marriage. With regard to religious marriage

Makes no sense. If religion is out of the picture, why would people wait till a civil marriage in the first place? It’s just a legal contract.

It “disgraces” the church when fornicators marry.

Lucky for us, we have concepts called repentance and forgiveness!

A woman should not be allowed to wear white if she is not a virgin.

Most people don’t believe in this anyway.

Since wearing white is the norm in our culture, coloured wedding dresses would effectively advertise when the bride is not a virgin.

Not logical as most people have sex before marriage AND wear white. Nobody believes in this tradition anymore and the sex life of a bride is nobody’s business but hers and her husband to be.

You honestly don’t need to be religious to see that her arguments are stupid.

 

[umamibella]

A woman should not be allowed to wear white if she is not a virgin. Wearing white is a privilege reserved for virgins. If a woman is not a virgin on her wedding day, she should wear a coloured dress. Since wearing white is the norm in our culture, coloured wedding dresses would effectively advertise when the bride is not a virgin.

The custom of wearing white was begun by Queen Victoria on her wedding day. It has nothing to do with any other reason. People began copying Queen Victoria’s wedding dress colour and thats how we got to white wedding dresses.
Educate your mother on why white is now a popular wedding dress colour. We who wear white follow the fashion of Queen Victoria.

With regard to religious marriage, not only is there no point in getting married, but the couple should actually not be allowed to get married. It “disgraces” the church when fornicators marry.

God is mercy and forgiveness, God is not disgrace and unending vengence. That is Biblical. Marriage in the church is a sacrament and is a gift from God.

 

[SKWill]

The “whole white wedding dress = virgin bride” is a misguided and potentially harmful myth. Until it white wedding dresses became popular after Queen Victoria’s wedding to Prince Albert in 1840, most brides wore the nicest dress they had, maybe even a new dress, but not necessarily a white dress. A white, hard to keep clean dress that was bought to be worn once was a sign of affluence and became popular. It was later that the idea of the color white as a symbol of purity become conflated with wedding dress symbolism.

 

[LilyM]

Marriage is indeed a sacrament, the idea is that God gives special grace to the couple over and above a secukar marriage or relationship, to strengthen them and their union.

So yes, apart from the physical and legal benefits there are spiritual ones.

No point in fornicators repenting and marrying? David was adulterous AND murderous. GOD condemned him and Bathsheba and punished their sin by taking the life of their first child. But they repented, stayed married and He blessed them with a second son, the great Solomon.

Catholics believe in the entirely Biblical and Christian concepts of repentance and second chances.

 

[Cor_ad_Cor]

I am curious to know whether Catholics would tend to agree or disagree with my mother and on what grounds.

Firstly, for Catholics, opinion really doesn’t matter - it’s what the Church teaches and has in law that matters. As others before me said, your mother’s opinions are definitely different from what I think most of us would say, and they certainly don’t align with the Church.

There is absolutely a point to marriage, and it’s not all about sex. Every single person who darkens the door of a church has sinned, and we don’t make a big fuss out of what sins people have committed, so long as they intend (and take appropriate action) to rectify their situations, so premarital sex is absolutely not a barrier to a Church marriage. White has no bearing/meaning to a Catholic wedding; it’s purely a societal custom. The only color the Church is concerned with is that of the priest’s vestments.

 

[BornInMarch]

No offense to your mother, but the things she says are theologically incorrect.

1. If a couple have already had sex, there is no point in getting married. Basically, the only reason for getting married is so that you can have sex in its only proper context, namely, marriage. Therefore, if you have already had sex, there is no point in getting married.

In Catholicism the purposes of marriage are love, companionship, and procreation. While sex is usually part of this it isn’t strictly a requirement; if a couple wants to have a Josephite Marriage (meaning they choose not to have sex) then that is allowed.

As for a couple that had sex before getting married, the point of them getting married afterwards is to safeguard their future together. The past can’t be changed, but the future can be and if the couple intends to have sex in the future then God prefers they be married.

1. The above applies to civil marriage. With regard to religious marriage, not only is there no point in getting married, but the couple should actually not be allowed to get married. It “disgraces” the church when fornicators marry.

There is no disgrace in the church when a sinner repents. In fact, there is more rejoicing in Heaven for the repentant sinner than for the pious believer who stayed on the right path. The church might refuse to marry a couple until it repents for it’s public sin (for example a couple that was “living in sin” may be expected to live apart for a time), but not for a sin the couple repented and received forgiveness for.

1. A woman should not be allowed to wear white if she is not a virgin. Wearing white is a privilege reserved for virgins. If a woman is not a virgin on her wedding day, she should wear a coloured dress. Since wearing white is the norm in our culture, coloured wedding dresses would effectively advertise when the bride is not a virgin.

That’s actually not what white wedding dresses meant. Until very recently blue was the color of virginity and before the Victorian Era wedding dresses were a variety of different colors; in Scandinavia black wedding dresses were preferred. Even today red wedding dresses are pretty popular in Mexico.

 

[brown_bear]

For some years I have been involved with other people in the preparation courses for marriage in the parish.

We had 11 meetings plus a Sunday afternoon of spiritual retreat.

Nobody in Milan did the same, certainly better qualitatively, but not more quantitatively.

I’m just saying this to say that we weren’t exactly a parish of hippies, permissive and neglected.

Yet we too had to take it for granted that all of our couples were living together.

What we did was calmly and reasonably explain what the Church is asking about premarital intercourse, and why.

But afterwards it is not that we said: «So, from today stop living together and breaking the sixth commandment, otherwise no marriage».

The aim was to give them the elements, not to verify their implementation.

However, we were happy that with the marriage they regularized their situation, that they made a commitment.

The real, gigantic goal for those who offer support to fiancé or young spouses is that they understand at least a little the matter of unconditional indissolubility: separation yes, divorce no, because the commitment is for life.

Here, among other things, the validity / nullity of marriage is at stake,

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

A woman should not be allowed to wear white if she is not a virgin

Wearing white is a custom started by Queen Victoria.
Before her, brides wore any color they like.
Around the world, red clothing is popular in some cultures for weddings.

OTOH, it’s the veil that signifies virginity. Or used to. Nobody really cares anymore and it was NEVER a church regulation.

The primary purpose of marriage is for the couple to declare their intention to form a family together, with all its rights and responsibilities.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I don’t know where your mother is coming from with all this, or what religion she practices.
But the short answer is that the Church has zero problem with non-virgins getting married. The Catholic Church does not hold people’s sins against them once the person has confessed and been absolved, so if you have premarital sex, but confess it and it gets absolved, it’s gone. You can have a normal life, which might very well include marriage. Furthermore if you’re in some kind of serious relationship then the Church would want to encourage you to get married in the Church if at all possible, to avoid the occasion of sin with your serious boyfriend/ girlfriend (i.e. avoid the temptation to have sex outside marriage, by simply marrying the person).

And in case you’re wondering, the Church/ the priest/ deacon etc. doesn’t ask women (or men either) whether they’re virgins when they go down to make arrangements for a wedding.

As for women being “allowed” to wear white, it’s none of your mother’s or anyone else’s business whether the bride is a virgin, and the bride can wear whatever color dress she wants. White is currently traditional for US weddings, and this is a fairly recent development since until about 100 years ago, most women didn’t have money for a whole special dress to get married in, and would simply wear whatever their best dress was, which was usually something they could wear again in normal use and could be any color (Although some people attached superstitions to the colors with some colors being better than others; of course the Church does not encourage superstition). Whether or not a white wedding dress ever had any connection with virginity, it no longer does. Other cultures have different color expectations, for example the traditional bridal gown color for Mexico was red.

If your mother is the type who’s going to be making assumptions about the bride’s virginity from the color of her dress in this day and age, I certainly wouldn’t be inviting her to many or any weddings.

Bottom line is this stuff from your mother is a bunch of silly bunk and would be rejected not only by every Catholic I know but by most Christians I know. It’s so rude and far “out there” that I don’t even see a point in having a discussion about it.

Firstly, for Catholics, opinion really doesn’t matter - it’s what the Church teaches and has in law that matters.

And thank heaven for that!
It saves us from a lot of crazy opinions.

 

[Vico]

…
As I say, I am curious to know what people think, as I read so much on these forums about marriage and sexual morality. Perhaps it will also help me to rebut her arguments next time she is harping on about it (which is basically every time somebody gets married).

Proverbs 3:5

Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
and do not rely on your own insight.

In the Greek mythology, harpies were generally sent out by the gods to punish criminals.

 

[EmilyAlexandra]

You honestly don’t need to be religious to see that her arguments are stupid.

No, I know her arguments are stupid. But it is reassuring to have some confirmation from sensible people on an otherwise very conservative forum to confirm what I always thought. I 90% expected that this was what people would say, but I had a 10% fear that people would come back saying that she has a fair point and there should be some kind of retribution and humiliation for impure women and couples without honour.

@SKWill @BornInMarch @0Scarlett_nidiyilii @Tis_Bearself @Cor_ad_Cor That is some interesting background information about the dress, its history, and different customs.

 

[blackforest]

If a woman is not a virgin on her wedding day, she should wear a coloured dress.

I’m curious how we should make grooms display their premarital sexual shame? Maybe in a 1970s crushed velvet suit? Purple, preferably.

 

[Lea101]

I had a 10% fear that people would come back saying that she has a fair point and there should be some kind of retribution and humiliation for impure women and couples without honour.

Nah. The arguments are honestly so far from church teaching that even a misogynist here can’t support it while acting like he’s just defending ‘Catholic teaching’

 

[TC3033]

I’m curious how we should make grooms display their premarital sexual shame? Maybe in a 1970s crushed velvet suit? Purple, preferably.

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[RolandThompsonGunner]

Obviously if you’re going to sleep with someone you should be married to them, but I think we’re talking here about someone who has already had premarital sex, not someone who is planning to.

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

My bad, I think I misunderstood the point you were making.

 

[phil19034]

This is what she says:

1. If a couple have already had sex, there is no point in getting married. Basically, the only reason for getting married is so that you can have sex in its only proper context, namely, marriage. Therefore, if you have already had sex, there is no point in getting married.

Wrong. A Catholic couple engaging in fornatication should get married so they can stop fornicating and have a sacramental marriage (assuming they are truly right for one another)

1. The above applies to civil marriage. With regard to religious marriage, not only is there no point in getting married, but the couple should actually not be allowed to get married. It “disgraces” the church when fornicators marry.

Nope. See my answer above.

1. A woman should not be allowed to wear white if she is not a virgin. Wearing white is a privilege reserved for virgins. If a woman is not a virgin on her wedding day, she should wear a coloured dress. Since wearing white is the norm in our culture, coloured wedding dresses would effectively advertise when the bride is not a virgin.

This was NEVER a religious “rule,” it was a custom of society. Today, the wedding dress (for most of society) doesn’t represent virginity. Very few people see the white as being a sign of virginity today. If it is symbolic of anything for people today, it is symbolic of motherhood.

After all, that’s what “matrimony” means. It comes from the Latin and means (roughly) “to make into a mother”

From my understanding of Christianity in general, and some knowledge of Catholicism specifically, I am imagining (hoping?) that people would say the following:

1. There are plenty of reasons why a couple would want to get married. Some are purely practical considerations, e.g. the right to inherit property, the right to a pension, and the right to be recognised as next of kin. For most people, marriage is also seen as an added level of commitment imposing specific obligations, such as sticking with each other through thick and thin and being faithful until death. For many Christians, marriage is also considered to be a sacrament.
2. and 3. Jesus was always talking about forgiving people, not judging, and letting him who is without sin cast the first stone. I cannot believe that Jesus would want people to be made to suffer for the rest of their lives on account of committing a sin, and nor can I believe that he would want somebody to be effectively subjected to a ritual humiliation on what is supposed to be one of the happiest days of her life.

All I’m going to say is that your mother’s views on this are not in line with the Catholic Church, nor are they in line with most of Christianity.