Getting Married in a Different Church

[Rose71]

My b/f and I have talked about getting married (hooray!)

We agree we want a Catholic wedding in a Catholic Church but…

I understand that if we wanted to marry in a church that isn’t my parish church, we need special permission. I don’t know if my reason for not wanting to marry in the church I attend every Sunday is ‘valid’ enough

I will explain: I lived in the Lake District for 2 years and attended Mass is a lovely little chapel that had about 8 regulars outside the tourist season and was full to bursting over the summer. The Priest was a lovely old chap (he’s probably up in Heaven now) who would wander down the asile before Mass and pick on a ‘regular’ to do a reading, or offertory. It’s the only time I’ve felt wholly welcomed and included in the Church as a single person. I was in my 20s at the time and my housemates weren’t Catholic, so I trotted down the hill to Mass by myself and never once felt lonely or isolated. Some Sundays, I went home to my parents’ for the weekend, so I didn’t always go to Mass there. When I did, all the regulars said hello and after Mass, the Priest would come back into the chapel, shout “get the kettle on!” and we’d all have a brew and a cholcoate biscuit!

I also spent one weekend per month for 13 years up in the Lakes, helping to train mountain rescue dogs. It’s a part of the world where I feel very close to God, possibly beause I spent so much time sitting half way up a mountain in a body bag, with not much else to do except marvel at the wonders of Creation

My parish at home has changed, or rather, my family has changed and the attitude of many of the parishoners has changed with it. My brother’s wife is not a Catholic and has never attended Mass. She is suffering from a mental illness and has lost all her confidence in social situations. Officially, I don’t know that! I had to prize the information out of my brother and he begged me not to tell even our parents, as she has insisted it’s kept a secret and I think he’s afraid of what she might do

The result is that my poor little nephew never has any children round to play at his house, or gets invited to play with other children. He dresses differently, because he rarely has clean clothes or shoes that fit properly. He was never taken out to socialise and he’s never receieved proper boundaries - so has little idea of how to behave most of the time. He spends Mass in his muddy, scuffed shoes; mucky tracksuit pants; randon t-shirt and big coat that he refuses to fasten, so it hangs off him! He kneels facing the bench and scribbles on a notepad or reads books about religious topics.

He’s been statemented as Aspergers, although to be honest, I have trouble working out what is an effect of his condition compared to what is an effect of his upbringing.

The response to our family, or at least my nephew, from many parishoners is to shun him and look grimply upon me and my brother. He is 8 years old, could pass for 10 and behaves like a 3 year old much of the time. I feel that the other parents in the parish could be more supportive. I have tried saying hello after Mass and trying to start a converstaion, but they don’t want to know. In their eyes, I am the sad, unmarried sister of the bloke with the odd son!

My family has always attended Mass and my mum especially, will always put herself out for others. Even families she has helped in the past are now distant and stand-offish!

Yes, there are some really good and warm hearted people left, but the was the parish and the local school have responded to my family’s situation in general has left me feeling as though I am not really a member of the Parish. Far from wanting to get to Mass, I have even started to come in late because I literally have a battle of wills getting there I want to go - definitely - but at the same time, I know I’m going to feel hurt and humiliated.

So - that’s my reason for wanting to choose a different church. Is it valid?

My boyfriend’s parish church has the same priest as mine, but he feels no particular affiliation to it. He stayed away from the Church for a long time after a family tradgedy.

Another plus of choosing the Lakes church is that there would be plenty of accomodation for all the relatives and other guests to choose from. We could even hire a big holdiay rental and provide bedrooms for the people travelling the furthest, of for whom paying for overnight accomodation would just be asking too much of in this financial climate.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I really don’t know the answer to your question, but your problem within the problem, so to speak, is your nephew who needs intervention, but especially his mum who REALLY needs intervention. I urge you speak to your brother about the situation and implore him to get help for his wife. It seems from what you say that your nephew is being neglected/ignored. Now, he could have Asperger’s, but people with Asperger’s don’t have to run around in a state of disarray. Aren’t there social agencies who help in cases like this?

I don’t blame you one bit for wanting to be married in the Lake District. It’s so beautiful!



Early congratulations!

 

[The_Bucket]

I understand that if we wanted to marry in a church that isn’t my parish church, we need special permission. I don’t know if my reason for not wanting to marry in the church I attend every Sunday is ‘valid’ enough

You only need permission from the actual parish/church in which you wish to be married. This is not an issue for the diocesan level. My wife and I got married in the cathedral of the diocese where our hometown, not in the city where we lived at the time. (And no, we did not live together, we lived apart but in the same city). We were technically parishioners of the same church in the diocese but she wanted to get married in that cathedral. So we asked the pastor of the cathedral, he said it was fine and our pastor likewise said it was fine. The end.

So… don’t worry! Just ask the pastor and be sure that you get the requisite pre-Cana in and you’re fine.

 

[Rose71]

Wow! It’s rapid response night here - thank you!

TRJ, I agree, my sister in law desperately needs help. The problem is, she won’t entertain the idea of it. My brother needs help too. He is so worn out from working long hours and travelling a lot and doing all the shopping and looking after their son. He is like a zombie most of the time.

I have thought of making an anonymous call to social services, but the other issue is my parents are close to 80 years old and he’s their only grandchild. They are very private people and don’t think the family problems ought to be discussed by anyone. They are also terrified of losing their only grandchild.

I try to take my nephew out when I can and because it’s only once every few weeks, I can shrug off the stares and tut-tuttings! I also demand that he is clean and tidy, or I have vowed to send him straight back home, so they daren’t send him out half dressed or filthy (which proves it can be done)

My mother would have been much stronger with him in her younger days, but she’s just too tired now. When she was away, I got him standing, sitting, kneeling and following the Mass on the prayer cards. He also went up for a blessing and managed to cross his arms and bow his head. When she’s there, he’s so desperate for attention, he plays up unless he can do as he pleases and act like a toddler.

 

[Lorelei12]

I was married in a church that wasn’t my official parish. I simply approached the priest, my then-fiance and I met with him, and said that he would allow it. There was, however, a higher fee because we were not members of the parish. There’s no harm in asking, and it’s basically the priest’s discretion. When the time comes, you may consider planning a wedding during “off-season” too- if there are not many other weddings scheduled around the same time, perhaps the priest will have more time in his schedule to accommodate non-parishioners (that’s what we did).

 

[SonCatcher]

I was married in a parish that wasn’t my own by a priest who wasn’t my pastor. You need permission from both your own pastor and the pastor of the church you intend to marry at. (You need similar permission to have your marriage witnessed by a priest or deacon other than your own.) It is up to your pastor to determine the acceptability of your reasons. Your fondness for that particular community may be enough. Fear of someone’s acting out, might not be. Among other things, you cannot ensure that the “embarrassing” potential guest will not make the trip out of love for you.

The church I married at was a kind of “destination church” for weddings (3 weddings on most Saturdays) so they dealt with it all the time. It is possible that the Lakes parish will be likewise since they are frequented by tourists.

 

[Rose71]

I’m not trying to avoid any ‘embarrasing’ guests!

All my immediate family would be there. I have no desire to exclude anyone.

The people I don’t want coming along uninvited to gawp are the parishoners who I feel have let my family down by their reaction to my nephew. I also associate that church building with feelings of disappointment and frustration and I want to start my married life in a place where I have witnessed a real sense of community and belonging - not a place where ‘keeping up appearances’ seems to be the order of the day.

 

[LilyM]

In regards your nephew, it is an awful thing for grandparents to lose touch with their grandchildren. It is also a difficult thing for family problems to become public.

In my humble opinion it is by far the greater evil to allow a child to suffer daily neglect such as you’ve described without reporting the matter to those authorities best equipped to help the child.

 

[Phemie]

Make sure you allow enough time for the request to be accommodated.

First, contact the pastor at the church where you want to marry and ask if it’s possible. If he says ‘no’, then you’ll have to revise your plans.

If he says ‘yes’, then approach your pastor and ask for his permission to marry in Parish X, where you have that Pastor’s permission to do so. I’ve never heard of anyone having to justify their request, but simply saying you are attached to that parish because you’ve worshipped there for a long time should be sufficient.

If your pastor consents to your marriage in Parish X, he sends all the documents for the marriage to your bishop for approval of the change of parish. The documents with the Bishop’s approval are sent to the Pastor of parish X.

If Parish X is in the same diocese, that’s all that is needed. If Parish X is in another diocese, the pastor of Parish X must then request his own bishop’s permission to officiate at the wedding.

I was working at the parish office for 13 years and dealt with many, many of these ‘out of the parish’ weddings (some years Fr. prepared 10 couples and only 2 married here). I’ve never known one to be refused.

 

[AnastasiaRomano]

I believe everyone else has answered your question about the logistics of marrying in a different parish.

About your nephew – there are (at least here in the States) various therapies and classes that can help those with Asperger’s Syndrome to work on social skills. Are there any such options near you? How would your brother react if you researched treatment options for Asperger’s and then presented those treatment options to him? (Even better if the options are accompanied by an offer from you and/or your parents to pay for them.) I don’t know how your relationship is with your brother, but if you approach this in the right way perhaps he’d be amenable to these ideas?

Of course, as you said, it can be hard to work out what is the effect of his condition and what is the effect of his upbringing. Working on treating his condition won’t solve his upbringing. Is your sister-in-law willing to seek treatment? Does she even admit she has a problem? If she doesn’t think she has a problem or isn’t willing to seek therapy or treatment, then your nephew’s upbringing isn’t likely to change.

Other ideas with which you and your parents might be able to be useful:

• hiring a maid service to clean your brother’s home occasionally (e.g. every other week or once a month)
• assisting him with some of the shopping or errands
• bringing meals to your brother’s family occasionally or inviting them to your home for meals
• babysitting your nephew more often. That would give him a bit more exposure to a “normal” adult and you could continue your social skills lessons with him during that time. Maybe you could also take him for an entire weekend, say once a month?

Of course you’d need permission for all of these from your brother – but if he is overwhelmed, he probably would appreciate the help. I’d suggest asking him straight out what would help him most. Something like, “Brother, I know you’re overwhelmed with everything that’s going on with Son and Wife. I’d like to help you out so that you aren’t as stressed. Is there anything that would be especially helpful to you?”

 

[Rose71]

Some great ideas, thanks.

Unfortunately, I am only able to look after my nephew once every few weeks. I work full time and also work 2 dogs. I have actually told them that I will not babysit during the week, because I need that time. They are already out a couple of times a week and expect either my mum to babysit (at 79!) until late, or hire a young girl to look after him. I put my foot down, hoping partly that they would see sense and actually spend time with their son - but no.

I’ve read a lot on Aspergers and there are groups over here too. The problem is that they put all his behaviour down to ‘his condition’ while the rest of the family see it as desperate attention-seeking strategies because he’s a very bright little boy and above all else, craves someone with the time to talk to him and listen to him.

He was never adequately socialised; is either allowed to ‘get away’ with the behaviour he chooses, or punnished severely once in a while if his behaviour is inconveniencing his parents. I suspect he may have some Aspergers traits (but don’t we all to some degree?) but what amazes me is that after a day with me, he can be relied on to be polite, tidy, biddable and really great company.

My take, from watching him, is that he lacks a great deal of confidence in social situations and his ‘default’ way of dealing with it, is to act daft and draw negative attention towards himself. For example, he rarely speaks properly to my dad, who is getting deaf and in a lot of pain - so can appear grumpy and loud! He tends to ignore dad, or just repeat what he’s said in a daft voice, or shout back - usually he just pretends he’s not heard! Brother’s response is “oh- that’s all classic Aspergers” (so it’s okay?!)

I actually spoke to my nephew about it - starting by saying, “I think you’re a bit frightened of Grandad” He agreed - after turning away and making silly noises (to which I said, “that’s what you do when you don’t really want to talk about something, isn’t it? You’re sprung lad!”) He admitted it, saying, “well, he does shout and he can be very grumpy!” We’d just been to an animal park, where he’s been very brave and had his picture taken with a snake, after lots of encouragement. I said to him, “Look how brave you were with that snake. You didn’t think you could do it - but now youve got a photo on a keyring to prove it. Why don’t you show that to Grandad? I’m sure he’d be impressed!”

So, we had a deal. However, the long talk in the car made us slightly late (about 5 mins) My brother has to be where he has to me! He can’t keep his wife late! So, when we got back, mum, dad and bro were all standing outside in the yard, tutting.

Nephew jumped out of the car and went over to dad - which in iteself was unprecendented and started, falteringly, to try to tell him about his keyring. Brother grabbed himn and dragged him away, saying , “Not now! We’re going!” I tried to argue his case, saying calmly that he’d got something to show dad. Mum intervened, saying, “but they’re late now! X (bro) has been waiting!”

By this time, nephew was in tears and lashing out at my brother and mum was pretty upset too, because in her eyes, I had been responsible for the upset by not just complying with what my brother wanted. Dad was mad, because by now, nephew was playing up - again! I just felt like crying myself

That’s a fairly typical example. They use Aspergers as an excuse and have read lots on the subject, but everything they read just ‘justifies’ his behaviour! I don’t blame my brother. He works long and demanding hours and really does his best, but he’s carrying 2 passengers.

I have tried to talk to him, but although he’s confided in me that his wife is mentally ill, it was only after I’d fed him a few cans of beer!!! He made me promise not to trell anyone and said she couldn’t be told to sort herself out - because you ‘can’t’ say that to depressed people!!!

There is surely a fine line between sympathy and enabling? I’m really at a loss to knwo what to do. It’s causing my parents to argue too - which is a first after 45 happy years of marriage - because mum is very lenient with him, because she doesn’t have the energy to deal with the tantrums and just wants to enjoy her only grandchild and dad favours a more hard-line approach.

He’s been smacked so many times by his dad, that if you do scold him (verbally) he will now give you such a mean look and actually lash out at you first sometimes!

Any ideas gratefully received! I used to have a brilliant relationship with my brother, but since he married her, we’re just not really close anymore. He’s never around to spend any time with because he’s so busy and he seems to overwhelmed by what he’s got to cope with, he’s almost mentally ‘shut down’…

 

[TheRealJuliane]

All I can say is, thank God that this little boy has YOU in his life!! It may not be enough to save him, but at least there’s some hope of normality when you are with him.

I’m a more blunt person, and what I would do is take my brother out to a pub, but not get him sloshed. I’d tell him frankly, “Look, dear brother, here are your options. Either you get your wife some help, or I report you to Child Services for neglect. I know it’s hard, but depressed people need help, not being wrapped in cotton wool. I will support you in doing this in whatever way I can, but you MUST get help because your son whom I love very much, deserves better than this. He’s not got Asperger’s as much as you and his mum are just not doing your jobs.”

It might cause a blow up, but I’m not the kind of person who could stand by while my nephew was ruined like this.