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bookgirl32
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I didn’t really mean it applied to you, it was just your point about not calling me condescending that made me think of it.
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bookgirl32
Guest
This was my point. I know people who have had two kids, and then used NFP in order not to have any more children because of complications. There are so many scenarios.
I think what he has a problem with, really, are the people that use it to avoid in order to attain a certain level of lifestyle. Which we would all disagree with.
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dixieagle
Guest
Thank you!
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Michael_Saint
Guest
By the way, dixieangle, I owe you an apology about that remark, re: having only two children. That was rash judgment on my part.
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Michael_Saint
Guest
So one can be knowledgeable about dating if he hasn’t dated - but ONLY if he is a priest. Is that what you are saying? Isn’t it possible for a layman to have acquired considerable knowledge without having dated too?
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Michael_Saint
Guest
Okay, disregard Wikipedia and pull out your old psychology notes.
You should make sure when you use sarcasm that it is clear to the other person that you are being sarcastic and not serious.
Are you continuing to post on this thread to beat me up over my statements, or to debate the issues?
As I remember, your first contribution to this post was to tell me that I must be a teenager and should get out into the real world before I shoot my mouth off about issues I know nothing about. I must have struck a nerve somewhere.
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Michael_Saint
Guest
Statement #1: It is not that uncommon not to have had that sentiment not expressed, because many keep such private things to themselves. I have seen a lot of it. Like I said, I want you to send me some of that water that you and your friends are drinking, and I’ll give it to my friends. You have just managed to find yourself an inordinate number of friends who have it all together.I have not heard nor seen that sentiment expressed among my friends who are soon marrying. I just haven’t. If you want to go and say that they probably feel that way and I just don’t know it, then I guess that’s your way of winning the argument.
Of course! A good Catholic young man or woman won’t leap into marriage before seriously considering the ‘alternatives’. Two of my friends were each dead set on entering the priesthood and the religious life…until they met one another and prayerfully discerned their vocation to marriage. They did so under the spiritual direction of holy priests and after much discernment. It’s just where their path has taken them, and it’s not at all your place to judge their discernment process.
I do not understand why you feel the need to assume the worst of people. The worst of parents, who couldn’t ever wish to provide for their children’s benefit but must just be ‘spoiling’ them by paying their tuition. The worst of young people who feel called to marriage, who must just be leaping into their vocation out of desperation and a need to ‘escape’ the single life which they feel is a burden. The worst of married couples with children who “didn’t have enough” in your book, and therefore must have used ABC. I’m sorry–but who do you think you are?
Statement #2: I tend to disagree with you. It is true that many “consider” the alternatives, but once they decide that marriage is “definitely” what God is calling them to (and believe me, no one can say this with assurance until it happens), they find themselves very unhappy and unwilling to remain single very long. You mentioned the examples of two friends. I believe this is so, but you have more than two friends, do you not? Have they too “discerned” or “considered” priesthood or religious life?
Statement #3: You are probably right - I tend to err on the side of pessimism and negativity. There is, however, an equally problematic assumption - and that is to assume everything is hunky-dorey. This often leads to an unrealistic view of problems that really do exist and red flags that are dismissed because one wants to “assume the best”. Equally dangerous.
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Michael_Saint
Guest
Indeed, this is my point.
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dixieagle
Guest
Apology accepted. (BTW - it is “dixieagle”, referring to a Boston College “Eagle” living in the deep south (“dixie”).
This is, as pointed out by other posters, a VERY sensitive and often painful subject for many mothers, or would-be mothers, and we don’t take kindly to those who have not experienced difficulty (multiple miscarriages, other problems) questioning the number of children we have - or do not have.
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dixieagle
Guest
Not “struck a nerve”; I just have a visceral reaction when someone makes sweeping generalizations about situations with which they apparently have limited experience (I am not trying to be nasty there - just honest.) Your posts truly sounded to me as if they were from someone quite young and without much real-life experience.
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Rach620
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The thing is, you don’t discern your vocation to marriage, the priesthood, or the religious life in the abstract. I didn’t sit down and think one day “ok, God, I’ve prayed a lot and am really sure you’re calling me to marriage. Now I’m going to go find a husband ASAP!”. I was very open to wherever God would lead me–and then he led me to my future husband, at a time when I certainly would not have expected! Our courtship began with the end of marriage in mind, and we constantly were praying to discern whether God’s call was to one another. Apparently it was!
Marriage especially is a vocation to another person. It’s not a vocation to a ‘lifestyle’ so much as it is a vocation to give of oneself completely to another, and to create a family with them because that is God’s call. I have other friends who are feeling seriously called to the priesthood, but even that isn’t done in the abstract. Retreats, conversations, exploring various orders and looking into the life of a diocesan priest–all of these are components of discerning that vocation which seem to me to be very much like the “courtship” phase of discerning marriage.
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Michael_Saint
Guest
Sorry about your name - realized it after I posted and was in too much of a rush to correct it.
I actually mentioned it in Confession today. Sometimes we don’t learn until we make the mistakes we do. Too bad we couldn’t just learn without making the mistake, but such is life and fallen human nature, I suppose.
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Michael_Saint
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Point(s) well taken. But I think we must at all times remain open to whatever it is God calls us to - and it sounds like you have always done this.
I am sorry, but I have so many dear female friends who get into some bad relationships because they lack openness, and it is something that tears at my heart.
BTW, you mentioned being from St. Louis - just wonder if there is some kind of connection. I was in seminary there from 2002 to 2004. You don’t go to the Latin Mass parish or have had any friends go to the sem at that time, have you? Pray outside the abortion clinic Saturday mornings perhaps?
I just love these “wow, it’s a small world” moments.
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Cara_Serrano
Guest
It was only after I married that I found out that my husband did not value a woman who didn’t have a “real job”. I had a graduate degree and I worked full time before I got pregnant, but then had some medical complications and couldn’t work for a few years. I enjoyed staying home with the kids, but always felt undervalued as a person. Even though I nursed and homeschooled, helped at church, and kept a clean house, my husband couldn’t see why I couldn’t earn a living, too. Now that the family is older, I work just to avoid the question, “What do you do all day?”
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bookgirl32
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Did he dare ask you that when the kids were younger and home with you?
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Rach620
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Apology accepted.
St. Louis is pretty much a big small town, but no, I don’t fall into any of those categories. We’re from out in West County, and I’ve only made it to Kenrick a few times. I was there staying for a “Christpower” retreat some summer back then, maybe 2002, but they kept us pretty well segregated from the seminarians
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Link21
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I would like to say getting back on track what this forum is about, "Whether getting married at a young age is worth it? In my oponion it is worth it if you are desperately in love. I got married when I was 22 and my wife was 20. I had done some college up to this point and then dropped out. But it wasn’t due to the marriage that I left because I had planned on doing both. Anyway, I am happy married. now and plan on having children in the near future. Sometimes, you only get a once in a lifetime opportunity for this to occur. Even though, just like any other couple you may have your disputes. Whom wouldn’t be right if you didn’t. It is better to have your love of your live right beside you for the rest of your life.
Second note, if you go back when this country was founded it wasn’t uncommon for a women around 14 to 15 to marry and have a child. Since then we’ve changed the laws to say you’re an adult at 18 now. And you don’t have all the rights even at that age. You can have children but can’t drink ummm?.
Third, I don’t think people should use the reason not to have children due to the world is overly populated. However, I do recognize families can control when, and how many children they can have by natural conception. I would like to have maximum 4 and my wife says 2 but we’ll see. Maybe we’ll compromise on 3.
Fourth, career and financial problems shouldn’t influence your need to get married or have children. Money doesn’t buy happiness, And as for career, you can lose it in one night. But you’re spouse or child you have as a blessing for the rest of your days.
Second note, if you go back when this country was founded it wasn’t uncommon for a women around 14 to 15 to marry and have a child. Since then we’ve changed the laws to say you’re an adult at 18 now. And you don’t have all the rights even at that age. You can have children but can’t drink ummm?.
Third, I don’t think people should use the reason not to have children due to the world is overly populated. However, I do recognize families can control when, and how many children they can have by natural conception. I would like to have maximum 4 and my wife says 2 but we’ll see. Maybe we’ll compromise on 3.
Fourth, career and financial problems shouldn’t influence your need to get married or have children. Money doesn’t buy happiness, And as for career, you can lose it in one night. But you’re spouse or child you have as a blessing for the rest of your days.
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Michael_Saint
Guest
Actually, that would be a sin and an inappropriate use of NFP.
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bookgirl32
Guest
Do you know the specifics, and what they are? You can’t make this judgement. It seems, yes, in the post, that they’re arbitrarily deciding on a number of children based on what they want. There could be many many reasons for why they want this. I’m not saying it’s NOT an abuse, I’m saying there is no way you could know if it is or not.
There are abuses of NFP. *Not having as many children as possible before your biological clock runs out is not one of them. *One of the things you have to understand about NFP is that for those who really rely on it, not just to avoid pregnancy, but to understand their bodies, is that they ALWAYS know when they’re fertile.
NFP is NOT just used to avoid pregnancy. Stop by Pope Paul VI institute’s website (my doctor, by the way) and read a little. It can and is used to monitor a woman’s health, and is used in the diagnosis of everything from severe PMS to hormone imbalances to ovarian cancer. Once NFP is learned and is used, it’s very easy to continue charting, and could be irresponsible to stop charting. There are women who have progesterone imbalances and know this because of NFP. In charting, they are PREVENTING a miscarriage b/c they can take progesterone on a monthly basis (and it has to be on certain days, which you’ll only know if you’re charting) to make sure that the progesterone levels stay balanced. I am one of those women, if I were to stop doing this, and I got pregnant, I could very likely miscarry. I think of it as a a responsibility to my future children and my husband to continue charting (that’s all NFP is, is charting a “map” of your body’s signs). So, since I continue to use it on a daily basis for those reasons, I know within 99% certainty if I can get pregnant or not on that day. Am I obligated to have intercourse on a fertile day, every month of my life that I’m not pregnant?
To “leave it up to God” as you seem to be suggesting would be to stop charting altogether. And as I chart for health reasons (and all women can and should), I’m not going to do this.
You seem to forget that IF you have intercourse on what you think, for every reason, is an infertile day, that God still has every option open to His disposal with our bodies. Hence, my son.
Watch out before you make NFP sound like another method of birth control!
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Link21
Guest
I guess my post does sound restrictive on putting my self interests before God on how many children to have. In that case that would sound like sin. I guess the relationship in this matter should be the three us, my wife, I, and God deciding on how many children to have instead of just the two of us. Thanks for putting that out, I had forgotton about that.
I probably shouldn’t use religion as a research text book but pray on the matter and look at the more spritual meanings behind these issues. I used to study business and general world theology at the University before I dropped out due to my health. Having constant pain in my sinsues from the age of 14, ear infections, almost losing complete hearing in 60 secs, and face dis confirguation because of the fluid that hadn’t been detected in years even with the ct scans. Then you have the mental anguish on top of that. Too many doctor mistakes. Thank God for my wife and the Russian doctors. Once I’m done I may go to court and sue the Americans.
I’m sorry for venting but I prayed to God day and day for the pain to go away and even to the point I should lose my hearing. Doctors saying nothing is worng and laughing at me because I told them I had pain. Doctors don’t care about thier patients
Anyway, due to our fallen nature from Adam and Eve this stuff will happen.
I probably shouldn’t use religion as a research text book but pray on the matter and look at the more spritual meanings behind these issues. I used to study business and general world theology at the University before I dropped out due to my health. Having constant pain in my sinsues from the age of 14, ear infections, almost losing complete hearing in 60 secs, and face dis confirguation because of the fluid that hadn’t been detected in years even with the ct scans. Then you have the mental anguish on top of that. Too many doctor mistakes. Thank God for my wife and the Russian doctors. Once I’m done I may go to court and sue the Americans.
I’m sorry for venting but I prayed to God day and day for the pain to go away and even to the point I should lose my hearing. Doctors saying nothing is worng and laughing at me because I told them I had pain. Doctors don’t care about thier patients
Anyway, due to our fallen nature from Adam and Eve this stuff will happen.
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