Getting out of the Friend-zone w/o sinning

[DarkLight]

Sucks to be them.Their problems are not mine. My problems are not theirs. They can blame the state for making marriage a dangerous deal in which rational men have to minimize all possible risk. What you mean however is that it goes against female interests and is in favor of male interests therefore you will attempt to use shame wrapped in the cloak of morality to beat them into submission.

I think you need to read Ubicaritas’s post. The teaching of the gospel is to love your neighbor as yourself, and to do to others as you would have them do to you. This is a Catholic forum, so presumably you at least profess to hold to this.

 

[Xantippe]

.Okay, so those guys are susceptible to being shamed into changing their perfectly legitimate preferences by a bunch of people on the internet. Sucks to be them.Their problems are not mine. My problems are not theirs. They can blame the state for making marriage a dangerous deal in which rational men have to minimize all possible risk. What you mean however is that it goes against female interests and is in favor of male interests therefore you will attempt to use shame wrapped in the cloak of morality to beat them into submission.

Speaking very pragmatically, many female virgins who have put a lot of effort into staying that way are not impressed with men who have been messing around with other women while the virgins stayed home and alphabetized their holy cards but then decide (at the 11th hour) that by George, they deserve to marry a virgin. That is, if you think about it, a pretty close parallel to your story about your friend and his old high school classmate…

There’s also the issue of Matthew 18:23-35 and the parable of the unforgiving servant. The servant is facing being sold into slavery with his wife and children because of his debts to the king. The king forgives him his debt, but then the servant immediately seizes a fellow servant who owns a tiny debt and wants to have him thrown into prison for debt. The king ultimately punishes the unforgiving servant, saying ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you besought me; 33 and should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?’

 

[starshiptrooper]

Of course women need to be careful about who they allow to walk them back to their cars or apartments. The truth is that it’s a lot safer to walk oneself back than to let some near-stranger walk with you. The most common rapists are not strangers but people that we know at least a little and trust at least a little.

This is not exactly rocket science.

As with child molestation, there’s a lot of popular concern about stranger danger, but people in our circle of trust are much more dangerous–in fact, that’s kind of the point of your fear of marriage.

So cynicism is only justified when it is women against men. Yet you talk about hypocrisy?

I’m afraid I’m going to have to report you to the mods for language. It’s not personal, we just don’t accept that kind of language around here.

So be it. I stand by what I said.

As to the substance of your story, your friend is probably much more socially skilled than he was in high school (nearly all of us are). He’s also probably a lot better looking–a lot of people are.

Right, it has nothing to do with the fact that she had her fun and now wants to cash out.

Furthermore, a lot of people aren’t sexually active in high school or don’t have a boyfriend or girlfriend. There’s nothing unusual about that. True story–I had no boyfriend in high school and the one boy that danced with me the one time I went to homecoming turned out to be gay. I haven’t let any of that wreck my life. Adulthood, thanks be to God, does not need to resemble high school.

If there was one thing I learned from my jobs and college, is that high school never ends.

If people have sexual pasts but insist on virgins for themselves, I think they need to be prepared to have the hypocrisy pointed out to them. If men choose to exclude good women from consideration for marriage based on circumstances that were not the fault of the women themselves, that’s the guys’ funeral. If they prefer to die alone rather than to marry a chaste non-virgin, I kind of think that that’s an issue they need to talk to a therapist about. Honestly, it sounds like a psychological problem.

If women have a pathological fear that every guy is out assault them, that is an issue they need to talk to a therapist about. You have your fears. I have mine.

Speaking very pragmatically, many female virgins who have put a lot of effort into staying that way are not impressed with men who have been messing around with other women while the virgins stayed home and alphabetized their holy cards but then decide (at the 11th hour) that by George, they deserve to marry a virgin. That is, if you think about it, a pretty close parallel to your story about your friend and his old high school classmate…

Except you justified what happened to my buddy.

There’s also the issue of Matthew 18:23-35 and the parable of the unforgiving servant. The servant is facing being sold into slavery with his wife and children because of his debts to the king. The king forgives him his debt, but then the servant immediately seizes a fellow servant who owns a tiny debt and wants to have him thrown into prison for debt. The king ultimately punishes the unforgiving servant, saying ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you besought me; 33 and should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?’

I may have to forgive, but I do not have to act as if nothing ever happened and sweep it under the rug.

 

[Xantippe]

So cynicism is only justified when it is women against men. ** Yet you talk about hypocrisy? So be it. I stand by what I said.Right, it has nothing to do with the fact that she had her fun and now wants to cash out.If there was one thing I learned from my jobs and college, is that high school never ends.If women have a pathological fear that every guy is out assault them, that is an issue they need to talk to a therapist about. You have your fears. I have mine.Except you justified what happened to my buddy.I may have to forgive, but I do not have to act as if nothing ever happened and sweep it under the rug.**

Well, a woman should not be trusting a man she barely knows to be a good guy. Hopefully, people know a little more about their future spouses. So I don’t think that’s hypocritical. Don’t trust people you barely know–do trust people who have demonstrated their trustworthiness.

High school does end–if you control the quality of your peer group.

It’s not every guy that is a rapist–but yes, I think women need to be careful about men that haven’t demonstrated their good character and self-control.

This is really weird–you think it’s OK to eliminate women who are victims of sexual assault from consideration as a future wife, but at the same time you want to shame women for making a minimal effort not to be raped?



Also, one piece of advice I have for young women is–don’t trust people who demand that you trust them. Nice, trustworthy people understand other people’s boundaries and accept no for an answer. So if a woman doesn’t want to be walked to her apartment by a date, a good guy will understand that and not make a big deal. The people who make the biggest deal about “you don’t trust me!” are predators.

And you’d be happy with a future wife holding it over your head for the next 50 years that you had been with other women? A little forgetfulness is an excellent thing in a spouse.

 

[Xantippe]

Not to monopolize the thread, but I’d like to share a thought on the unsoundness of PUA theory and practice.

PUA guys take a bulk-rate approach to meeting women and are happy to hit on twenty women if one of them responds positively. (I don’t know their actual numbers, but let’s use that one–I just saw a guy say 5% in a thread.) Here’s where a problem arises–the PUA guy will have annoyed 19 women to make a connection of some kind with the 20th woman, but then he’ll extrapolate from that data (based on that one lone woman) to “what works with women,” not noticing that it didn’t work with 95% of his sample. Furthermore, repeated exposure to PUA techniques tends to stiffen women’s response–hence the fact that Roosh V has had to keep moving on to greener pastures.

 

[starshiptrooper]

Well, a woman should not be trusting a man she barely knows to be a good guy. Hopefully, people know a little more about their future spouses. So I don’t think that’s hypocritical. Don’t trust people you barely know–do trust people who have demonstrated their trustworthiness.

I am pretty sure there is a slight difference between being a paranoid wreck assuming the worst of everybody and taking reasonable precautions.

High school does end–if you control the quality of your peer group.

I wish that was the case.

It’s not every guy that is a rapist–but yes, I think women need to be careful about men that haven’t demonstrated their good character and self-control.

This is really weird–you think it’s OK to eliminate women who are victims of sexual assault from consideration as a future wife, but at the same time you want to shame women for making a minimal effort not to be raped?

Also, one piece of advice I have for young women is–don’t trust people who demand that you trust them. Nice, trustworthy people understand other people’s boundaries and accept no for an answer. So if a woman doesn’t want to be walked to her apartment by a date, a good guy will understand that and not make a big deal. The people who make the biggest deal about “you don’t trust me!” are predators.

See what I previously said.

And you’d be happy with a future wife holding it over your head for the next 50 years that you had been with other women? A little forgetfulness is an excellent thing in a spouse.

The state is the thumb on the scale here. In a Libertarian society, you would have a valid point. If someone cannot accept the choices I have made, well there are 3.5 billion other women out there and no such thing as a soulmate or the one. Their loss, my gain.

 

[Xantippe]

I am pretty sure there is a slight difference between being a paranoid wreck assuming the worst of everybody and taking reasonable precautions.I wish that was the case.See what I previously said. The state is the thumb on the scale here. In a Libertarian society, you would have a valid point. If someone cannot accept the choices I have made, well there are 3.5 billion other women out there and no such thing as a soulmate or the one. Their loss, my gain.

Not making oneself vulnerable to people one doesn’t trust or that set off red flags is 'reasonable precaution" and it’s standard personal safety advice.

Good personal safety for women means (among other things):

“Use your sixth sense. “Sixth sense.” “Gut instinct.” Whatever you call it, your intuition is a powerful subconscious insight into situations and people. All of us, especially women, have this gift, but very few of us pay attention to it. Learn to trust this power and use it to your full advantage. Avoid a person or a situation which does not “feel” safe–you’re probably right.”

powertochange.com/life/personalsafetytips/

That means if somebody offers a walk to a car or apartment and that person makes you feel unsafe, you turn down the offer and refuse to go with them.

Most of personal safety is not fighting off an attacker (nearly all women would be at a huge disadvantage once it came to that) but not being vulnerable to begin with, which means good planning, good awareness, paying attention to red flags, listening to “bad feelings,” being willing to be “rude” if it’s a choice between being polite and being safe, etc.

A lot of us grown up ladies have had experiences of ignoring red flags and then really bad things happening. So, yeah, I continue to be confused by the contrast between you a) believing that a woman that has been the victim of rape is unmarriageable but b) a woman who takes minor safety precautions to avoid sexual assault is being a “paranoid wreck.”

You may think this is being a “paranoid wreck,” but that’s just the reality of being a woman trying to go about her business and lead a normal life.

 

[chevalier]

Hello everyone

I’m a 25 year old Catholic engineer and I feel called to marriage but have never been in a serious relationship or even on a real first date for that matter. I read a book called “How to Get out of the Friend-Zone” and it was amazingly accurate to my situation of being seen only as a friend by the women I want to date. This book, although very helpful, contains several references that go against Catholic teaching. Most immorality in the book, thankfully, can be overlooked and the main take-away points and advice can be safely applied. The main thing I see as a problem, however, is the part about needing to get physical and actually work up the courage to kiss a girl. The book suggests that one of the main reasons for being stuck in the friend-zone is due to not kissing or being physical so I’m supposed to change that to leave the friend-zone. I can definitely see truth in that but I know passionate kissing as well as some other forms of physical affection outside marriage are gravely sinful and I’ve never kissed anyone my whole life. I want to save my first kiss for marriage but I also want to get out of the friend-zone. It’s a catch-22. Does anyone have any idea how I can have my cake and eat it too

Thank you for reading and God bless

Without the benefit of having read previous replies (as I usually do):

Not sinning trumps getting out of friend zone.

Seek first the Kingdom of God, and the rest will be added to you.

Also: You’re supposed to love God more than your mother, father, your own child, your wife, hence so much more some girl somewhere out there you happen to be initially interested in.

Besides, God already counts more to you than even finding a good wife, much less something as silly as getting ‘success’ with some girl somewhere that might as well be bad news for you since she isn’t capable of getting to know a guy as a potential fiancé and later perhaps potential hubby without getting physical with him.

Or rather few people are incapable, it’s just that not many people try. You never know what they are capable of, or not, until you give them the chance.

Next, what you need is a wife, not a girlfriend. Having a girlfriend is just an optional step on the way (usual, of course, but still optional strictly speaking).

Don’t settle. God always wants to help and never runs out of stamina. It’s just that we tire along the way and quit.

Remind me again how Grandpa Adam found his date?

As to ‘how’, the answer is analytically. You’ve got your very specific own talent and competence, which is engineering. You’ve been trained to identify problems and work out solutions methodically. People skills aren’t exactly mathematical, but you can still use that approach to problems. Look around, write down what you see, sit down, have a think, put your thoughts on paper, do some analysis (pros and cons, SWOT, war map, whatever), get an action plan, implement the action plan. And so on and so forth. Just don’t be afraid, and use your talents. You’ve got plenty enough and there’s an infinite reservoir of help available from above if you as much as ask. Be like David. Dude always found a way or made one.

Oh, and realize that all sorts of women are going to appeal to you, it’s only natural. Some will even try that on purpose given your degree and income-earning prospects. The point is, you obviously can’t have them all and wouldn’t even want to. So you need to develop some resistance, especially if the relevant prospect doesn’t strike you as a viable long-term project.

Just because a woman tends to make you drop everything, lose your breath, drop your jaw and stare doesn’t mean you have an obligation or imperative to act on it. You get to choose. It’s actually possible. Given some time you can train yourself to elongate the path from impulse to reaction, just like with smoking or booze or whatever. This is not theorizing, I’ve been doing it for years now simply because I wouldn’t accept being attracted to some things I didn’t approve of. Guess what, it worked. It’s much easier than it appears.

For the record, if you’re introverted and have some baggage like a missing or unavailable parent or some sort of authority figure or mentor you were never able to satisfy, or some sort of traumatizing experience from childhood that involved human relationships, then you may need some coaching in order to figure out how to make relationships work (making them start is only a first step that by no means guarantees long-term success). Again, this is something I know first-hand too.

 

[chevalier]

There are other ways to let a woman know you want to be more that friends besides getting physical. Send her a nice card. Invite her out to dinner. Give her flowers. Look directly into her eyes and let her see that you are attracted to her. You don’t need to lay a hand on a woman to let her know your interested in her.

In my experience women these days are definitely clueless about those things, but they learn and adapt eventually, and rather quickly. It will obviously take a while, and if you don’t lay a hand on them but tell them straight in their face you have romantic feelings for them, then they are still going to claim to not know (and possibly really not know) if you want to be friends or if you want to be ‘an item’ with them. But, they do catch up if you give them a couple of days, or, in some cases, weeks. It’s just that it isn’t immediate, so you (as a guy, I mean) need to learn to find something to do with yourself in the meantime (including your emotions, anxieties etc.). Sport and manual labour work like charm. Study too, to a lesser degree. Brooding and roaming all over the county thinking, with your head in the clouds, does not.

(For the record, women also tend to stay more on the sane side if they don’t think so much.)

It depends how established the friendship is. If a man and a woman have been friends for a few years, an invitation to dinner will not be interpreted as a romantic gesture. If there is truly a well established friendship in place, I think an open heart to heart conversation is really the only way to explore the possibility of more. Of course if it is a new friendship, hints and romantic gestures should be sufficient.

Without meaning the slightest disrespect or anything mean whatsoever, I had a ton of laughs about the last sentence; you’ve got no idea. Women are as epically clueless about hints as they think men are. If not more.

Honestly? You’ve been rejected. The way forward here isn’t to try to figure out how to get out of the “friend zone” - it’s to move on.

+1

Acceptance and commitment. Change what you can change, learn what and you can’t change, and just do your job — live according to your values, your calling, your mission etc.

To elaborate: Sometimes people we’re attracted to aren’t attracted to us. It sucks, it really does.

Only if you let it. The gloom seems inevitable up until like mid-twenties, but once you get closer to 30 chance are you’re gonna realize it’s largely self-inflicted. It’s a normal fact of life not everybody is inclined to everybody. And besides, women’s attraction to men is not as front-loaded as vice versa.

But women don’t like their friendship being used as a way to try to get them to be romantically interested when they’ve already said no. It’s kind of dishonest, to keep being friends with someone who isn’t interested only so you can convince them that they really do want to date you. Women don’t like their friendship being treated as just a stepping stone to a romantic relationship. So just don’t - either accept being just friends or cut ties and move on. There are other women out there, and some of them will be interested in you.

Some women really need to get over themselves a little, if you’ll permit me to be a bit on the blunt side. They need a bit more distance, you know, like stepping a bit outside them, and them, and them and seeing the bigger world.

For the record, there’s even a rather clear inconsistency there, for a lot of women, if asked in a different situation, claim they want to be friends first in order to get to know the guy, so they just simply can’t claim they don’t accept friendship as a stepping stone or whatever. If we put the nonsense aside, the real thing is that they, just like everybody else (and his dog) fear what they can’t control. Humans fear the unknown, which is most of what there is to it.

Well, I am open to dating other women, and I have no problem with moving on, but I just can’t see myself asking out a strange girl who I know nothing about. I don’t know how to ask out a girl without being blunt or awkward.

I can’t either. Which is the very reason I consistently refuse to ask strangers out on explicit dates. And I don’t mind facing the consequences, because principles. Principles is what makes a man.

(You most certainly can’t become a man by doing what (you think) a woman expects you to do. Women don’t really reward men for complying with their expectations, women go after men who are pioneers, conquerors, or nerds bunkered up in undeground labs and server rooms, geeks living in their high ivory towers, or plain Old Joes who just honestly do their job, which usually means hard work, and try to leave the life God wants them to leave.)

Me, I just invite them to a coffee unless I’m sufficiently smitten and see no obstacles, then I get a bit more open about it.

I don’t even know how to flirt or show her I’m attracted to her without bluntly stating it. Any suggestions?

Yeah, do your thing. Be an expert in your thing, not a clumsy apprentice/imitator in some other person’s thing (unless that person is God, of course).

And you’d be surprised how often women like men being blunt. Or at least direct.

Besides, you need a gal who won’t get all manipulative and psychotic and toxic when you tell her you dig her. Just don’t get nervous and overdo the compliments because it might come out sleazy, especially if you comment on aspects of her appearance and the tone is ‘hot’ rather than ‘beautiful’. The difference between the two relates to what kind of man you want to be, and that’s not a question a woman can answer for you. Unless she’s your mother, and then only up to a point.

 

[chevalier]

Bluntly stating it isn’t as bad as people think, honestly.

Yeah, people’s romantic miseries tend to be self-inflicted.

If she’s someone you casually know, invite her out to coffee to get to know each other better. If she’s a friend, you can just tell her you’re attracted to her. It might work, it might not.

Yeah, the usual. Or it could turn out she has someone, she just hadn’t seen the need to bring that fact up earlier on because she wasn’t sure where you were driving at and you were nice to talk to. Happpens quite a lot of time.

The problem really only comes with guys who won’t take no for an answer.

And that problem is caused largely by women who say no when they mean yes and sometimes say yes when they mean no. Each sex is getting what it deserves, and, for all my old-fashioned gentlemanly upbringing (think Old South in US terms, though I’m from the other side of the pond) that makes you dread the very idea of saying something less than laudatory about someone of the female persuasion, much less the lot of them, I gotta say women aren’t exactly victims of men in the large scheme of things. Again, both sexes get what they deserve and are each worth the other.

In my case there is a well established friendship in place and I’ve talked to her before about possibly dating but it was a total shock to her and she couldn’t see us as being more than friends because I’m “too awkward” and “not her type”

As an engineer you’re bound to be awkward and not her type to many women, but the exact same traits make you a treasure find to many other women.

Her shock may be coming from how she had never had any thoughts or feelings ‘of that kind’ about you, so she never felt the need to think about that, hence it took her completely by surprise.

but I think she’s just not seeing my other side that would be romantic.

Theoretically possible but don’t get in that mood. I mean, don’t get in the mood of having to show her your other side etc. I know this is difficult, but one needs to get over the mentality of trying the case to the very end and bringing up every argument, every last piece of evidence or possible witness that could help. You’re an honest engineer, not an ambulance chaser anyway.

I was planning on following the advice of the book which suggests a period of separation

C’mon you ain’t even married yet and you already want ‘a period of separation’?

so she can see what life is like without me, then I could try again. But I think she’d only see me as more than a friend if I showed her physical affection.

Theoretically possible, but don’t make too much of it. Friendship involves physical affection too, by the way. People tend to hug their family and friends.

Something like putting your arm around a girl’s waist isn’t going to make a world of difference. It won’t magically make her like you romantically, it won’t remove any sort of glass ceiling, and it won’t even make her certain that you’re romantically interested.

Trying to kiss her… allow me to remain skeptical. For the record, chances are a woman will let you, but later give it a think and decide to take a step or two back, and you’re gonna learn to live with that kind of thing too.

 

[DarkLight]

Some women really need to get over themselves a little, if you’ll permit me to be a bit on the blunt side. They need a bit more distance, you know, like stepping a bit outside them, and them, and them and seeing the bigger world.

For the record, there’s even a rather clear inconsistency there, for a lot of women, if asked in a different situation, claim they want to be friends first in order to get to know the guy, so they just simply can’t claim they don’t accept friendship as a stepping stone or whatever. If we put the nonsense aside, the real thing is that they, just like everybody else (and his dog) fear what they can’t control. Humans fear the unknown, which is most of what there is to it.

I was more thinking here of after the woman has already said no. It’s ok to get to know a woman while viewing her as a potential romantic partner. It usually doesn’t work to keep hanging around her after she’s clearly said she’s not interested in you in the hopes that she’ll eventually come around - and is likely to make the woman feel a bit used. (And it’s definitely not ok to do what some guys do and whine about how she’s just shallow and you were so nice to her and generally acting like you were owed a relationship.) It’s basically related to what I said about guys who won’t take no for an answer - in general, if you’re rejected, the thing to do is move on from that individual.

 

[chevalier]

You can work on your confidence. The key is to get over the idea that being rejected is so horrible. As long as you are otherwise being a good person rejection shouldn’t be taken personally. Our egos are the problem, and this is something you can work on. I saw an article a while ago about a man who sought to improve his confidence. He did so by going around and making unusual requests, like to play soccer in someone’s back yard. He figured he’d get rejected every time and this would build up his confidence. He got rejected plenty, but more surprising was how often people said yes. Work on your confidence by learning to get over rejection and I think you’ll find your situation will improve greatly.

Rejection is difficult to handle if one has issues involving it, and so many people do these days, given how easy it is to get a divorce or get away with never marrying, so there are so many broken families, patchwork families and non-families. So it’s not only just ego but also something deeper. Re: ego, well, yeah, if you’re competitive or if you’re a pompous *** like I was in my college years, sure.

For the record, ‘rejection’ is such a loaded word. We don’t need to ‘reject’ people just to tell them we don’t see ourselves as being potentially married to them in the future. People unnecessarily make it hard on themselves and on others. (And yeah, women in general could learn some communication skills in this particular area of human interaction, though I don’t blame them for feeling awkward — I certainly feel awkward myself in a similar situation.)

 

[chevalier]

I was more thinking here of after the woman has already said no. It’s ok to get to know a woman while viewing her as a potential romantic partner. It usually doesn’t work to keep hanging around her after she’s clearly said she’s not interested in you in the hopes that she’ll eventually come around - and is likely to make the woman feel a bit used. (And it’s definitely not ok to do what some guys do and whine about how she’s just shallow and you were so nice to her.) It’s basically related to what I said about guys who won’t take no for an answer - in general, if you’re rejected, the thing to do is move on from that individual.

I get you, pretending friendship is dishonest, and obviously you can’t blame a woman for not giving herself to a man just because he asked politely.

On the other hand I can’t blame a man for trying. There’s a double standard with a lot of women expecting a man to keep trying in those circumstances, except when he does, then he gets blamed for not taking a no. Morton’s fork.

My own inclination has varied. I wasn’t exactly the most stable young guy out there in my younger years. I’d seen plenty of the double standard I mentioned above, including between my own parents. Later, I saw plenty of girls second-guessing themselves, where based purely on maths any girl who had either broken up with me or sent me away was statistically near-certain to experience a change of heart later; a relatively consistent pattern dragging on for at least 10 years, thought I’d go as far as estimating at 15. But this is connected to how, in fact, people are rarely boolean about this sort of thing, they’re usually like 0.2 in favour and 0.8 against, not 0 to 1, which explains them showing some misgivings, which one shouldn’t hang on to and grasp at like straws (and strawmen).

The problem is that those situations have a potential to develop into ugly star-crossed scenarios like in the Poldark series, which sometimes drag on for years. I’ve witnessed as far as more than 30 years of second guessing in my closest family. People end up making choices that are contrary to their desires or to what their normal sound reason would suggest, and they end up regretting that later. Marry in haste repent at leisure, except if you don’t marry, then there’s possibly gonna be a purgatory to pay too. A person naturally wants to avoid that. Some people get OCD about it. You can force yourself to stop, but if you do so, then you certainly can’t know that’s the right decision either. If you’re going to make a stupid decision, then it’s better to make an honest stupid decision than to make an overcalculated stupid decision.

 

[chevalier]

That wasn’t the point of drama classes. The point of drama classes is that a bit of acting skills can go a long way towards knowing how to present yourself. A bit of fake it til you make it.

Or you can just take a negotiation course. You’re going to need it anyway if you’re going to survive in today’s competitive labour market or especially manage a company or lab or studio or lead a team. Focus especially on how to be assertive (but only in the good sense of the word, not in the sense that means being an educated bully coated in a thin veneer of political correctness) and communicate clearly without hurting people’s feelings, draw boundaries and recognize other people’s boundaries.

Well, I think I’m pretty good looking if I do say so myself But I don’t think I’m confident or “cool”. So yeah I really have to work on confidence. Any other thoughts on how to be more confident?

Be good at your work. And believe in what you’re doing. Kind of like St. Joseph. St. Joseph was a small-business owner in a technical field — just sayin’.

I didn’t originally think I was desperate but maybe I need to admit that I am. I just read this article about what appears desperate:
nicknotas.com/blog/10-mistakes-that-make-you-look-desperate/

Unfortunately it seems I’ve fallen into most if not all of these pitfalls :imsorry:
That balance of not being pushy or nervous seems like an impossibly narrow eye of the needle to walk through. I just don’t know how to overcome it. I wish there was some personal coaching I could get for an affordable price.

#6 and #8–10 are indeed creepy and #5 makes an honest woman’s life admittedly a bit more challenging than it already is, but the rest is BS, and I remember women saying that, women who actually rejected me.

Women, by which I primarily mean women whose focus isn’t off the rocker, are not going to think any of:

‘oh no, he didn’t wait out at least a day before replying to my message!’
‘oh no, he wrote one more before I replied to the previous one!’
‘oh no, it seems he’s there for me any time I need him!’

Those are assets, not liabilities. It’s only that not all women are smart asset managers and appraisers (yet; many experience a delayed coming-to a couple of years after college).

Basically, when I read: ‘Basically, flirting is what turns a girl on,’ I thought I’d froth myself laughing. Seriously, stop reading that article.

Obviously, you can’t outright demand and enforce your share of her attention, but being attentive to her and being there when she feels like having a talk or walk (or dinner or movie or whatever) is not something you should repress. Just don’t act in a servile way (in the bad sense of the word), is all. If a woman can’t stand a man being enthusiastic rather than meh about meeting her, she has some growing up to do. And perhaps a bunch of counselling.

And to heck with #4. If you feel like bringing a bush’s worth of roses to a first date, then bring a bush’s worth of roses to a first date. Women like men who are themselves, if a bit eccentric. If she wanted to date an amoeba, she would to a lab, not to a date with you.

 

[chevalier]

All right. Enough chevwall. Just one more thing to say, for now. As my grannie, bless her heart, whom I never met, was wont to say, if a girl’s into you, you won’t chase her off with a stick.

 

[starshiptrooper]

Oh, and realize that all sorts of women are going to appeal to you, it’s only natural. Some will even try that on purpose given your degree and income-earning prospects.

Betabux are real.

Sport and manual labour work like charm. Study too, to a lesser degree. Brooding and roaming all over the county thinking, with your head in the clouds, does not.,

(You most certainly can’t become a man by doing what (you think) a woman expects you to do. Women don’t really reward men for complying with their expectations, women go after men who are pioneers, conquerors…

Yeah, do your thing. Be an expert in your thing…

And you’d be surprised how often women like men being blunt. Or at least direct.

You mean to tell me that women prefer successful, stoic, direct, dominant men with a conqueror’s mindset, physical dominance, and outcome independence? You mean that women do not want to bed mincing pajama boys who believe in gender equality and get affirmative consent before hover-handing them? You don’t say!

The difference between the two relates to what kind of man you want to be, and that’s not a question a woman can answer for you. Unless she’s your mother, and then only up to a point.

Speaking from personal experience, never let your mother answer that question. Men do this on their own, perhaps with the guidance of another successful man.

 

[starshiptrooper]

Those are assets, not liabilities. It’s only that not all women are smart asset managers and appraisers (yet; many experience a delayed coming-to a couple of years after college).

So you mean that when a woman starts pushing 30 something, is approaching The Wall fast, and has failed to lock down any of the bad boys she did all manner of kinky things for on command, she suddenly appreciates all the nice guys she ignored before? Next I suppose you will tell me that Donald Trump is the POTUS.