Getting radical with non-judgmentalism

[AlanFromWichita]

Thank you for checking out my new thread! :tiphat:

I’ve been in a number of pointless discussions about whether to judge each other. Pointless because inevitably it becomes an intellectual mental exercise to dream up various scenarios that justify our judging.

This is the mentality the enemy has called us to. Jesus said, “do not judge,” and yet instead of investigating what that can do for us, we fight Jesus’s teachings by saying, "well as a Good Catholic … or St. Paul says … "

So I’ve distilled what it is about judging that I believe Jesus wants us to learn. The challenge for me is to put it into a finite number of words, since this wisdom came to me in ways more subtle than words.

Judging means I accept the world without having to give it my opinion. For example, if I say, “that is a beautiful sunrise,” then I have judged the sunrise. If I say, “oh I am moved by that sunrise,” then I have conveyed the effect it has on me. I could do both at once by saying, “oh I am moved by that beautiful sunrise.”

If I go to a musician after a concert and say, “you sang wonderfully,” they may be thinking, “that was my worst performance ever – I don’t like hearing this.” But if you say, “I loved your singing,” then you have not judged, and the performer isn’t made to feel awkward.

If I tell the cook that his cake was excellent, then I am claiming to have knowledge of what makes an excellent cake, and am informing the cook that in my informed opinion, she has “done well.” Compare that with saying, “I just loved that cake.”

So this is the difference between observing one’s self, or simply reacting, to a stimulus without categorizing it according any particular external scale.

Non-judgmental: I loved that play. I was bored by the movie. I became disturbed when you did that. I see something on your face.

Judgmental or accusing: That play was excellent. The movie was lame. What you did was very wrong. You have breakfast on your face.

See? Whether it’s good or bad, it’s still judging if you give it a rating.

Now, that is not to say that judging is sinful or improper. I’m just trying to paint a distinction that is useful for my particular presentation of this thread.

If a math teacher says, “that’s the wrong answer,” to a student answering a question she just asked, then ostensibly the teacher has credentials to back it up, and it isn’t a personal judgment. At least if it’s a math question and not a personal question.

Similarly, if a musician said, “I missed a note,” that is not a condemnation, it is a statement of fact. Now if they said, “I missed a note and it messed up my whole concert,” then yes, it becomes judgment. Part of it is professional opinion, the second a personal reaction.

To me, the “judging” that Jesus is talking about, is like tying a personal reaction inevitably and directly to an outside signal or stimulus. So if I say, “that person’s behavior makes me angry,” then we have just handed our emotions over to that person – isn’t that a Bad Strategy? That’s why psychologists suggest instead to say, "I felt angry when that person behaved that way because … " which focuses on our reaction rather than some implied intrinsic power it has due to its nature.

I have so much to communicate here I’m exploding. I just had a great deal more typed, but deleted it because if nobody is following me this far then what I just erased would be pointless. So I leave this much in your capable hands, dear fellow posters and lurkers.

Maybe if others are hearing me, you can help me explain what I’m trying to say. It think there can be a lot of power in having this discussion.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I’m over it.

Sorry but the point I was trying to make, seems like I don’t need to make it any more. Thank you for those who endured the above. Maybe I should institute a two hour delay before trying to express anything I haven’t thought through.
:newidea:

The point I would like to have made is still a Good Thing, but this approach toward explaining it seems unlikely to bear good fruit. So I offer it as an artifact of thinking that was so, little while ago.

As you were.

Alan

 

[Allegra]

I think the answer to this is, there is a time and a place for everything. Sometimes you are in a position to judge something and sometimes you are simply in a position to experience it. We are in a position where we are required to judge whether an action is good or bad. We are not in a position to judge whether a person is good or bad. In fact, since all people are created by God and we know that all of God’s creations are good, we are certainly safe to assume that all people are good, despite their actions. This attitude is probably what Jesus wants from us and it certainly makes it easier to work with those who are more difficult to get along with.

 

[TrueLight]

You have some interesting thoughts there, Alan.

If I tell the cook that his cake was excellent, then I am claiming to have knowledge of what makes an excellent cake, and am informing the cook that in my informed opinion, she has “done well.” Compare that with saying, "I just loved that cake.

I never thought about framing a compliment that way, but I guess implicit in a judgment that something is excellent, is the insinuation that one is qualified to make such a judgment. I suppose I would like it better if someone told me they “loved my cake”.

Now, regarding judgement, I think it is very important to look at both the verses that say we should not judge and those that say we should.

We can’t judge from the viewpoint of being sinless, because Jesus says “For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”

I like the adage that says “Hate the sin, love the sinner”.

We can, and are called, to condemn heresy and behavior that is not faithful to Church teaching.

Catholic answers has a nice article on this topic. They refer to this passage in John.

Jesus told the Jews, “Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment” (John 7:24).

Yes, Jesus is actually saying it is okay to judge if one judges in the right way.

The article also points to this CCC passage:

Respect for the reputationof persons forbids every attitude and word likely to cause them unjust injury. He becomes guilty:

    of rash judgment who, even tacitly, assumes as true, without sufficient foundation, the moral fault of a neighbor;
    of detraction who, without objectively valid reason, discloses another's faults and failings to persons who did not know them;
    of calumny who, by remarks contrary to the truth, harms the reputation of others and gives occasion for false judgments concerning them.

To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbor's thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way: "Every good Christian ought to be more ready to give a favorable interpretation to another's statement than to condemn it. But if he cannot do so, let him ask how the other understands it. And if the latter understands it badly, let the former correct him with love. If that does not suffice, let the Christian try all suitable ways to bring the other to a correct interpretation so that he may be saved." (CCC 2477-2478)

So, I don’t agree with you that we are never to judge, but I see the wisdom in re-framing as you described because it forces us to really think about how our words are affecting others and it also fosters humility.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I think the answer to this is, there is a time and a place for everything. Sometimes you are in a position to judge something and sometimes you are simply in a position to experience it. We are in a position where we are required to judge whether an action is good or bad. We are not in a position to judge whether a person is good or bad. In fact, since all people are created by God and we know that all of God’s creations are good, we are certainly safe to assume that all people are good, despite their actions. This attitude is probably what Jesus wants from us and it certainly makes it easier to work with those who are more difficult to get along with.

If you got that out of my post, then I must have said something right.

There are times when we are required to judge, but that’s a civic issue not a spiritual one.

Alan

 

[Alexalee23]

Excellent topic! Thank you for posting and sharing. All my life, this has hit VERY close to home for me.
My first brief visits to the forums here revealed undercurrents of this type of verbal behavior.
I was saddened by it, and at first it had me thinking about just not returning, then in contemplation Holy Spirit bolstered my confidence by reminding me of John 8:1-11…
Let him who is without sin cast the stone.
I decided I will not leave CAF, and I refuse to be kept away from fellowship with other Catholics because of the strong opinions of others, since that is all that judgement is anyway, a mostly egocentric need to be right (and righteous) by informing others they are wrong.
We humans seem to thrive on casting stones don’t we?
I fight this urge in my own daily life. It is wrong and it drives a wedge where LOVE should be!
I would venture to guess that judgemental attitudes and commentary are probably a strong reason that many people leave the church or simply decline to participate in the fellowship that can provide a fuller, richer religious life. For many years I declined to take my rightful place at God’s table for this reason. I have now decided I will participate, and I will no longer allow self-righteous bullies to drive me away from my faith. I am open to the opinions of others, and I welcome respectful discourse, but I won’t tolerate bullying of any kind, even if it’s disguised as religious advice meant to be delivered for my benefit.
You were brave to post, thank you!

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I never thought about framing a compliment that way, but I guess implicit in a judgment that something is excellent, is the insinuation that one is qualified to make such a judgment. I suppose I would like it better if someone told me they “loved my cake”.

Yes, I do believe you heard part of my message here. Who am I to tell a professional their work is good? Normally the professional would take such a compliment as a positive thing, but I’m looking more at the effect the judging has on the judge, not the one judged. If we go around being critics of everything – and probably not even realize we’re doing it – then we risk losing the benefit of the exercise Jesus gave us not to judge.

Society provides for many superior/minor relationships, where it is OK to criticize and judge another because of the social positions. For example, a teacher gives me a grade which is of course a judgment of the work. But it doesn’t work the other way around. Moreover, if people think you’re judging them but aren’t qualified they may even retaliate, “what are you, my teacher?” People fear getting judged by anybody but when they find out they are judged by someone with false credentials – or comes across like they “think the know better,” (whether they actually do is irrelevant, it’s about how they come across to the one judged) – then a judgment can ignite a social war or even trigger a bout of depression.

I was different than most people along the educational aspects of this, apparently, because my dad raised me to believe that getting my work “judged” is an act of love. I would take my papers to my dad and let him mark them up because I was so eager to do better it didn’t even occur to me to count the number of marks he made on the paper.

Another example is parents and children. This has changed since I was young. When I was young any parent could judge or correct any child in a mixed social setting, but not vice versa. That seemed to change about the time that environmentalist wackos got control of the media. Schools joined in, too, in turning kids into defacto parents for their bio-parents. They would come home from school and tell their parents they are wasting water, and they should recycle. They would watch Captain Planet and heap calumny on any family with more than one child. Now it’s to where the children (young adults included) are “cool” but the parents are optionally cool, depending on whether they are amusing to the young ones. So now instead of judging and instructing our kids, we perform for them.

But I digress…

We can’t judge from the viewpoint of being sinless, because Jesus says “For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”

I’ve recently had a new insight in hearing this passage. I used to hear this and think, “so God’s gonna get us back if we judge.” I don’t think that’s as healthy as the new way, where I get out of it that judging is its own punishment. It isn’t that you judge somebody, it’s that your judging function is so integrated into your way of looking at things, that you are actually finding your own faults and through empathy, convicting yourself of them. So to me, it isn’t that judging is an offense punishable by God, as much as it is an indicator of more subtle and deeper problems that present themselves as judgmental attitude, and eventually to the judgment itself.

So for example, if you think, “what a jerk,” but hold your tongue, you have not benefited from the exercise of not judging. In your mind and heart you are still “guilty” of having judged.

I understand Jesus gave the example of the unjust judge, and that makes it seem like it it God’s wrath, rather than our own psyches, which keep us out of the kingdom if we judge. But I think the example was as close to Jesus could come to an unscientific, illiterate people. If He were to speak the truth today he just might borrow from the language of psychology to explain Himself. I think it’s healthier to look at Jesus’s commands as “coaching” or “exercises” (coincidentally similar to “exorcise?”) that condition our minds and hearts to accept Truth beyond what the words themselves say, then as “by golly you had better not judge or God will frown upon you.”

Because if you fail to judge because you are afraid of getting punished by God, then you have just exchanged pride or ego or whatever, for anxiety. Anxiety is just as good as shutting one’s mind off to growth, as judging does. It’s all about arrogance and disunity.

As far as making a right judgment, I see that Jesus challenges us to think long and hard about whether making a “right” judgment is even possible for humans.

1 Cor 8:1-2
Now in regard to meat sacrificed to idols: we realize that “all of us have knowledge”; knowledge inflates with pride, but love builds up. If anyone supposes he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know.

It think this is a key factor. If we judge, we have presumed to know something – privileged knowledge even – and that closes our mind to new learning. If we judge, then case is closed. As long as we leave some question as to whether we’re right, then I think we’re on the right path.

But of course, I could be totally wrong.

I like the adage that says “Hate the sin, love the sinner”.

We can, and are called, to condemn heresy and behavior that is not faithful to Church teaching.

I myself am very sparing with that statement, because I don’t think it’s fully appreciate what “not judging” means. Like the example you say, we are talking about outward behavior and it could be perfectly dispassionate and objective to state that a person has committed heresy. So we say, “the person is doing wrong things, but whether that constitutes sin is between him and God,” and I think that’s all perfectly healthy.

The reason I don’t like the saying because it tends to get abused, especially along with its slightly more malignant version, “judge the sin, not the sinner.” In the latter case, it is a logical fallacy because one cannot judge that a sin is committed, without there having been someone to commit it.

With “hate the sin, love the sinner,” I don’t get as up in arms usually, depending on the context. Too often they “hate the sin” in such a way as to keep their grudges toward the sinner. That’s not a problem with the saying itself if interpreted the way I did above.

Yes, Jesus is actually saying it is okay to judge if one judges in the right way.

The article also points to this CCC passage:

So, I don’t agree with you that we are never to judge, but I see the wisdom in re-framing as you described because it forces us to really think about how our words are affecting others and it also fosters humility.

I think you have caught the essence of my ideas. However – and this is something I’ve changed my tune on in the past several months – I no longer wish to say, “Jesus said not to judge so it’s wrong to judge and you are sinning for doing so,” but more like, "hey, why don’t you try doing it Jesus’s way – taste and see the sweetness of non-judgmental attitude. So now to someone who seems helpless to judgmental mentality, how much good is it going to do to judge and threaten them? So instead of thinking, “those people are the problem,” I think, “wouldn’t it blow their minds to know what it felt like not to be carrying that burden?” After all, once we become judges, we become responsible for the things we judge. So we say things are bad, but do nothing to fix them – that’s the fate Jesus is trying to prevent us from having to endure.

Alan

 

[BobCatholic]

Whenever someone rails against people being judgmental, I ask them “How do you know they’re being judgmental?”

The answer is: They are judging them, and therefore doing the same “evil” they are railing against. Hypocrites.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Whenever someone rails against people being judgmental, I ask them “How do you know they’re being judgmental?”

The answer is: They are judging them, and therefore doing the same “evil” they are railing against. Hypocrites.

Yes. That has occurred to me, too, and been told to me.

Funny thing is, usually people who say “people are too judgmental,” are the ones who cry “hypocrites.” The ones who say, “it is our job to judge,” are more likely to call us “heretics” or “disobedient.”

So we each have our labels. I think Jesus’s main message is that labels should not divide us. We are one in Spirit, through Him, in Him, and with Him. We share in the Body of Christ. In that regard, we are all in the same boat – there is not slave nor free, or sinner nor righteous. What each of us does is felt by all, truly. We can pretend there are segmentations, but the Spirit transcends those artificial boundaries of our mind and language.

Alan