Getting rid of Mormon books and other various books

[iepuras]

I was assuming nothing. I simply asked a question.

You did far more than simply asked a question. Your question assumed that I did something that I stated in clear English that I did not do. Please stop insulting me.

dianaiad:

…so your problem with the LDS church was that it taught you to dress modestly and behave with chastity?

OK.

Now I, too, was a product of the Young Women’s program, and I too was told that dressing modestly and behaving with dignity was a good thing. I was never taught that being sexually assaulted would affect MY eternal soul…but I was given instructions upon how to avoid getting into situations where I was most in danger of being assaulted.

After all, leaving one’s door wide open, the alarm off and the key in your car does not make the burglary that takes place your fault; that’s all on the burglar. However, I would prefer not to get burgled in the first place than to be able to righteously assign blame afterwords.

So yeah: I was taught not to send invitations that might be misinterpreted by men.

Guess what, though? Good Catholic girls are taught the same things! So is every other young girl whose parents and leaders care more about her than political advantages.

As for getting married…hmmph. I didn’t marry a returned missionary. I was the returned missionary my husband married. I really can’t relate to what you experienced, since my experiences, evidently, were so different from yours.

I do hope that you are happy in your new life and beliefs, and that they give you what you need.

You ARE making assumptions, and you are completely ignoring about 50% of what I write. You have now assumed that I had a problem with the LDS church because the law of chastity? Please re-read what I wrote in clear English, paying particular attention to what is bolded.

iepuras:

Now take this determined, high achieving little girl and put her through the Young Women’s program. Every week,** I was taught that I HAD to get married to a returned missionary and have lots of children and stay home to raise them to be happy**.** I was taught that nothing else could possibly make my happy and anything else is sinful**. I was taught that I had to cover up my body so that men would not have lustful thoughts and sin and that I was responsible if they did sin because I dressed immodestly. I was taught that if I broke the law of chastity or was sexually abused or assaulted, I was a “licked cupcake” or “chewed gum” and no self-respecting returned missionary would want to take me to the temple for marriage (and ultimately the celestial kingdom).

Based on the bolded, you made the assumption that I have a problem with the law of chastity, dressing modestly and behaving with dignity as taught by the LDS church? Seriously?

I wrote my main problem with what I was taught in the LDS church pretty plainly, and you completely ignored it. What the LDS church teaches as the only role of women (as wives and mothers) is damaging and hurtful. Being a wife and mother is a noble calling. However, God does not call all women to marriage and motherhood. It is very hurtful that the LDS church teaches that women are only supposed to be wives and mothers (and stay at home mothers at that) and anything else is wrong and sinful.

Please stop insulting me by ignoring half of what I write.

 

[twopekinguys]

This is an excerpt from one of D’s old posts. It may help you see what direction she is coming from. Basically, since you are an ex, your position is automatically flawed.

“See, here’s the thing from ME. I have this rule that I never, ever break, and it is because of just the sort of thing you are running into; there is no ex-member of ANY faith that will present his old faith in a fair, true or objective manner.”

Read the entire post here.

 

[iepuras]

This is an excerpt from one of D’s old posts. It may help you see what direction she is coming from. Basically, since you are an ex, your position is automatically flawed.

“See, here’s the thing from ME. I have this rule that I never, ever break, and it is because of just the sort of thing you are running into; there is no ex-member of ANY faith that will present his old faith in a fair, true or objective manner.”

Read the entire post here.

Thank you. I knew exactly what she was doing. I am used to the passive aggressive insults. I am used to being a good and loved member of a group one day and being persona non grata the next.

That is still no excuse to ignore half of what I write, take the rest out of context and make assumptions with zero basis in what I post.

I have always been honest about what the LDS church teaches, what I was taught, and my experience in the LDS church. Since Diana has started posting again, I have not seen her show how any of the ex-Mormons on this forum have lied about the LDS church. The fact is, ex-Mormons don’t have to lie. All we have to do is tell the truth and that is enough.

I may be an ex-Mormon but that is no excuse to take my posts out of context and to be insulting.

 

[twopekinguys]

Thank you. I knew exactly what she was doing. I am used to the passive aggressive insults. I am used to being a good and loved member of a group one day and being persona non grata the next.

That is still no excuse to ignore half of what I write, take the rest out of context and make assumptions with zero basis in what I post.

I have always been honest about what the LDS church teaches, what I was taught, and my experience in the LDS church. Since Diana has started posting again, I have not seen her show how any of the ex-Mormons on this forum have lied about the LDS church. The fact is, ex-Mormons don’t have to lie. All we have to do is tell the truth and that is enough.

I may be an ex-Mormon but that is no excuse to take my posts out of context and to be insulting.

 

[PaulDupre1]

I have always been honest about what the LDS church teaches, what I was taught, and my experience in the LDS church. Since Diana has started posting again, I have not seen her show how any of the ex-Mormons on this forum have lied about the LDS church. The fact is, ex-Mormons don’t have to lie. All we have to do is tell the truth and that is enough.

Exactly. The thing Mormons fear the most is that we will quote their “prophets, seers and revelators”. The things these men have said and taught as the word of God are so noxious, so offensive as to be an antidote to Mormonism.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

 

[zaffiroborant]

I was assuming nothing. I simply asked a question.

…so your problem with the LDS church was that it taught you to dress modestly and behave with chastity?

OK.

Now I, too, was a product of the Young Women’s program, and I too was told that dressing modestly and behaving with dignity was a good thing. I was never taught that being sexually assaulted would affect MY eternal soul…but I was given instructions upon how to avoid getting into situations where I was most in danger of being assaulted.

After all, leaving one’s door wide open, the alarm off and the key in your car does not make the burglary that takes place your fault; that’s all on the burglar. However, I would prefer not to get burgled in the first place than to be able to righteously assign blame afterwords.

So yeah: I was taught not to send invitations that might be misinterpreted by men.

Guess what, though? Good Catholic girls are taught the same things! So is every other young girl whose parents and leaders care more about her than political advantages.

As for getting married…hmmph. I didn’t marry a returned missionary. I was the returned missionary my husband married. I really can’t relate to what you experienced, since my experiences, evidently, were so different from yours.

I do hope that you are happy in your new life and beliefs, and that they give you what you need.

Well obviously you didn’t really read her post since the LDS churches modesty and chastity teachings were not the focus of the post neither was an RM, my 7yh grader got the point.

 

[zaffiroborant]

What the LDS church teaches as the only role of women (as wives and mothers) is damaging and hurtful. Being a wife and mother is a noble calling. However, God does not call all women to marriage and motherhood. It is very hurtful that the LDS church teaches that women are only supposed to be wives and mothers (and stay at home mothers at that) and anything else is wrong and sinful.

Please stop insulting me by ignoring half of what I write.

When the truth puts a negative light on anything LDS it is necessary to ignore it. You know “some things that are true are not very useful”.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Thank you. I knew exactly what she was doing. I am used to the passive aggressive insults. I am used to being a good and loved member of a group one day and being persona non grata the next.

That is still no excuse to ignore half of what I write, take the rest out of context and make assumptions with zero basis in what I post.

I have always been honest about what the LDS church teaches, what I was taught, and my experience in the LDS church. Since Diana has started posting again, I have not seen her show how any of the ex-Mormons on this forum have lied about the LDS church. The fact is, ex-Mormons don’t have to lie. All we have to do is tell the truth and that is enough.

I may be an ex-Mormon but that is no excuse to take my posts out of context and to be insulting.

Again there is a little gleeful imp inside me giggling in delight. Nothing makes the imp happier than when a member of the LDS church highlights something that goes against the grain of my girls. Not only did my 7th grader zero in on your point about limiting women when I asked her to pick out the main point of your post, her older sister noted that in Dianaiad did not deny that the LDS church teaches that that is the only role for women. The other girls got involved in the discussion and further realized that women in the LDS church believe that if they dress in a way that a man interprets as provocative, well she should have known that she’d be assaulted. I just love this, I couldn’t ever make them dislike the LDS church as much as LDS posters on various different boards have done

CARM has had the same effect, yeeeessss.

 

[PaulDupre1]

When the truth puts a negative light on anything LDS it is necessary to ignore it. You know “some things that are true are not very useful”.

Be careful. Mormons don’t like it when you quote their “prophets, seers and revelators”.

 

[iepuras]

Again there is a little gleeful imp inside me giggling in delight. Nothing makes the imp happier than when a member of the LDS church highlights something that goes against the grain of my girls. Not only did my 7th grader zero in on your point about limiting women when I asked her to pick out the main point of your post, her older sister noted that in Dianaiad did not deny that the LDS church teaches that that is the only role for women. The other girls got involved in the discussion and further realized that women in the LDS church believe that if they dress in a way that a man interprets as provocative, well she should have known that she’d be assaulted. I just love this, I couldn’t ever make them dislike the LDS church as much as LDS posters on various different boards have done

CARM has had the same effect, yeeeessss.

I’m glad your little imp is giggling with delight! Your girls sound very smart. I hope my boys end up with smart, accomplished women like the ones you are raising.

Interestingly, all the qualities in me that LDS men found were a big turn off were very desired by my Orthodox, now Catholic husband. He wanted a wife who is smart, independent, hard-working and determined because he wanted his children to be that way too. Imagine that.

 

[iepuras]

Oh, and Diana, rape has absolutely nothing to do with how “provocative” a woman dresses. It is all about power. This is why elderly women, babies, women in burqas and even men are raped.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I’m glad your little imp is giggling with delight! Your girls sound very smart. I hope my boys end up with smart, accomplished women like the ones you are raising.

Interestingly, all the qualities in me that LDS men found were a big turn off were very desired by my Orthodox, now Catholic husband. He wanted a wife who is smart, independent, hard-working and determined because he wanted his children to be that way too. Imagine that.

Well I am certainly not raising them alone, I’ve got two families behind me. On my side college education goes back to my great-grandmother and her sisters. One of which managed to leave an amazing inheritance to not only her children but all of her nieces and nephews as well. My mother and all my aunts all worked and worked with my uncles to raise kids who have carried on the idea that not only can women work, their participation in the larger world is necessary and an obligation. On my DH side we seem to have a leaning towards independent small business owners. The men delivered the ice, built the houses, made the parts and the women kept the books, paid the bills, managed the budget, and then did the same at home. Long before Pople John Paul II’s address to women, my family and my husbands felt that the world benefits from and needs women not only in the home but out there contributing their perspective and unique talents. Respected, expected and accepted.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Oh, and Diana, rape has absolutely nothing to do with how “provocative” a woman dresses. It is all about power. This is why elderly women, babies, women in burqas and even men are raped.

The idea that a woman is responsible if she is raped is sick, and something my oldest daughter zeroed in on right away from Dianaiad’s post. In her case it is something she’s seen from other LDS posters usually in threads about modesty. That women are responsible for men’s dirty thoughts and resulting is a common view among LDS.

I’d add that the LDS view seems to be if someone fails to live up to the “law of chastity” they are human garbage. After all who would ever willingly eat a licked cupcake? Even my kids, sugar monsters that they are, by age 6 wouldn’t have eaten a licked cupcake even if it was the last cupcake on Earth. This teaching is utterly lacking in compassion and forgiveness for those who fail. Just a lot more sadness I see in the LDS church.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I notice that Dianaiad has not explained why it is worse to take out anger on an object than on people.

 

[iepuras]

Well I am certainly not raising them alone, I’ve got two families behind me. On my side college education goes back to my great-grandmother and her sisters. One of which managed to leave an amazing inheritance to not only her children but all of her nieces and nephews as well. My mother and all my aunts all worked and worked with my uncles to raise kids who have carried on the idea that not only can women work, their participation in the larger world is necessary and an obligation. On my DH side we seem to have a leaning towards independent small business owners. The men delivered the ice, built the houses, made the parts and the women kept the books, paid the bills, managed the budget, and then did the same at home. Long before Pople John Paul II’s address to women, my family and my husbands felt that the world benefits from and needs women not only in the home but out there contributing their perspective and unique talents. Respected, expected and accepted.

What a great heritage! I think we easily forget that women have been participating in the economy from the beginning. The 50’s stereotype of the stay at home mom was the anomaly. On my DH’s side, they were all farmers until my in-laws’ generation so obviously the women worked as hard as the men. They made wine, cheese and butter. They grew vegetables and herbs and managed the livestock. My MIL worked very hard. My husband grew up behind the Iron Curtain, so life was tough. My mother was a SAHM, which I don’t begrudge. She taught me a lot before I ever started kindergarten. Women need to be able to make choices and not be forced into marriage or motherhood (whether she works or not as a mother).

 

[recentrevert]

Destroy them - if you sell or give them away you could be helping to spread false doctrine. I had a lot of books before I reverted, but I couldn’t sell or give them away because most supported sin in some way. I looked through them and had to tear most of them up.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Thank you. I knew exactly what she was doing. I am used to the passive aggressive insults. I am used to being a good and loved member of a group one day and being persona non grata the next.

That is still no excuse to ignore half of what I write, take the rest out of context and make assumptions with zero basis in what I post.

I have always been honest about what the LDS church teaches, what I was taught, and my experience in the LDS church. Since Diana has started posting again, I have not seen her show how any of the ex-Mormons on this forum have lied about the LDS church. The fact is, ex-Mormons don’t have to lie. All we have to do is tell the truth and that is enough.

I may be an ex-Mormon but that is no excuse to take my posts out of context and to be insulting.

I think Diana might enjoy baiting as a hobby.

 

[twopekinguys]

I think Diana might enjoy baiting as a hobby.

What was your first clue…

 

[iepuras]

I think Diana might enjoy baiting as a hobby.

What was your first clue…

Lol. Probably. Bait those ex-Mormons and show that what LDS leaders say about them is true. That we are angry, hateful and overcome by the temptations of Satan.

I have grown weary of ignoring bad behavior. At first, I ignored the bad behavior of my Mormon family because ‘I had hurt them’ by leaving the LDS church. It didn’t help the situation because the behavior got worse. Of course, I am now angry and hateful when I call out their bad behavior and refuse to constantly subject myself to it.

 

[dianaiad]

Oh, and Diana, rape has absolutely nothing to do with how “provocative” a woman dresses. It is all about power. This is why elderly women, babies, women in burqas and even men are raped.

Of course it does not.

Nor did I claim that it did.

If you had read my example of the burglary…where I clearly stated that no matter how wide open the house is, the fault of the burglary is still on the head of the burgler, you would have figured that out.

Rape is the fault of the rapist.

But if a woman doesn’t put herself in a situation where rapists are likely to be…for instance, if a woman is careful about who she goes out with and where she goes on the first or second date, she is less likely to be a victim of a date rape drug. No opportunity.

It’s not her fault, either way, but which is better; to be able to assign responsibility for the rape to the rapist, or to not get raped in the first place?

…and I’m am offended at this assertion by those here that Mormons teach women to be nothing but ‘wives and mothers,’

First, there’s nothing ‘nothing but’ about being a wife and a mother, any more than there is about being a good husband and father. These are THE most important roles any human being can fulfill.

David O’McKay (One of our prophets and presidents: the first one I knew, actually) said this: “No other success can compensate for failure in the home.”

He wasn’t talking to the women.

As it happens, Mormons tend to be better educated than any other religious group except Jews. Catholics…getting better but percentage wise? Not so much.

Right now there are more Mormon women with degrees than there are Mormon men. If we don’t buy into the modern idea that there is something demeaning about being a mother and staying home, then…tough.

So, I didn’t date until I was sixteen. I didn’t go out on individual dates until I was eighteen. I was very, very careful about who I ‘went out’ with. Nobody ever had a chance to slip me a ‘roofie,’ even if they had wanted to.

Because I would rather not be raped than be able to point the finger at my rapist. It’s not me blaming the victim. It’s me…not walking in the minefield because even though it’s not my fault the mines are there, I’d still rather not get blown up.

Or…do you all leave your doors open at night, leave your cars unlocked,and store your jewelry in a basket outside your front door?

Diana, who, by the way, has three college degrees and who raised her five kids as a single career woman after her husband died, and was never criticized for doing so by the church or anybody else…except non-Mormons.

And who, right now, is irritated.