Getting "Saved" (?)

[Reuben_J]

No. “Getting saved” is initial conversion, the response to the tug of the Spirit on the heart after one has encountered the proclamation of the gospel. The response is to acknowledge that Christ is Lord, he has died for our sins, and to confess that we are sinners and to ask his forgiveness assured that we are forgiven, and to “go and sin no more.”

**If **we continue to walk in this, we have assurance that we are saved and will be saved if we continue in faith and trust and obedience to Christ.

Being born again is becoming a new creation. It is being born of the Spirit. About the being born of water, you might get different answers by what that means. Simply undergoing water baptism is not being born again however. That is how evangelicals see it.

Thanks for the explanation. The language can baffle an unsuspecting Catholic. I can’t seem to find such meanings in the Gospel. Perhaps for the getting saved part since by implication it must include repentance, a necessary and vital requirement. As for being born again, if the referral point is Jn 3, it obviously says about ‘being born of the water and the Spirit’. In any case, is being born of water unnecessary for a person to be born again?

 

[ltwin]

Thanks for the explanation. The language can baffle an unsuspecting Catholic. I can’t seem to find such meanings in the Gospel. Perhaps for the getting saved part since by implication it must include repentance, a necessary and vital requirement.

Well, the Gospel was written many centuries ago. Language and culture has not stopped evolving. While form may change, we believe that the meaning is scriptural.

As for being born again, if the referral point is Jn 3, it obviously says about ‘being born of the water and the Spirit’. In any case, is being born of water unnecessary for a person to be born again?

I’m not an expert on the response for John 3. I’m sure there are those out there who have looked at that verse and offered their explanation for what it means and how its meaning jives with not believing in regenerative water baptism. ’

I will say that evangelical “born again” Christians in general do not believe that water baptism is necessary to be saved. They believe it is necessary because Jesus commanded it.

They are generally reluctant to ascribe spiritual power to any ritual act apart from faith. Accordingly, many see baptismal regeneration as encouraging a belief that salvation comes by performing ritual. This is especially true when it is coupled with infant baptism, since infants cannot express faith.

 

[Reuben_J]

Well, the Gospel was written many centuries ago. Language and culture has not stopped evolving. While form may change, we believe that the meaning is scriptural.

Okay.

I’m not an expert on the response for John 3. I’m sure there are those out there who have looked at that verse and offered their explanation for what it means and how its meaning jives with not believing in regenerative water baptism. ’

**I will say that evangelical “born again” Christians in general do not believe that water baptism is necessary to be saved. They believe it is necessary because Jesus commanded it. **

They are generally reluctant to ascribe spiritual power to any ritual act apart from faith. Accordingly, many see baptismal regeneration as encouraging a belief that salvation comes by performing ritual. This is especially true when it is coupled with infant baptism, since infants cannot express faith.

Hmmmm …

Jesus commanded it but it is not to be believed.

Faith. What is faith? Sometimes it involves in believing something that cannot be proven or seen. We cannot see salvation and Baptism with water may be very ritual and serve no purpose. But isn’t that what faith is all about? We believe because Jesus commanded it and by the faith that we have that Baptism brings.

Anyway, thanks for the effort.

God bless.

 

[gnosisofthomas]

So getting saved is not being saved but a gaga euphoric feeling of wanting to be saved.

And born again is not not being born again by water and the Spirit but about ‘getting saved’.

Pretty much!

I guess it’s more about the conviction that Christ is Lord, which makes you saved and turns you from sin, and you feel euphoric about it. I don’t get it either, it always struck me as kind of lazy…

 

[ltwin]

Hmmmm …

Jesus commanded it but it is not to be believed.

Jesus commanded baptism. We got that. Now we need to break down that second part of the sentence because the question of what is to be believed is the sticking point. You believe that what is to be believed is baptismal regeneration. Evangelicals don’t. We don’t believe that Jesus meant baptismal regeneration was the purpose of baptism.

 

[gnosisofthomas]

Jesus commanded baptism. We got that. Now we need to break down that second part of the sentence because the question of what is to be believed is the sticking point. You believe that what is to be believed is baptismal regeneration. Evangelicals don’t. We don’t believe that Jesus meant baptismal regeneration was the purpose of baptism.

Then why did Peter say in Acts 2:38: “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit”?

 

[ltwin]

Then why did Peter say in Acts 2:38: “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit”?

He did say be baptized. But before that he said to “repent,” which for evangelicals is arguably far more important than water baptism. Anyone can be baptized, whether they have repented or not.

 

[gnosisofthomas]

He did say be baptized. But before that he said to “repent,” which for evangelicals is arguably far more important than water baptism. Anyone can be baptized, whether they have repented or not.

I guess what I’m getting at is that I don’t understand how evangelicals come to that conclusion. The scripture doesn’t say, “Repent for the forgiveness of your sins, and be baptised…” It joins repentance and baptism together with the conjunction “and”. The Greek makes it even clearer that forgiveness of sins is tied to baptism because the wording is basically, “‘Repent,’ he said. ‘And be baptised … for the forgiveness of your sins…’”

How can one be more important than the other if they’re both for the forgiveness of your sins?

 

[Malachi4849]

I have a friend who is a Baptist & she is always talking about this person or that person “got saved”; like it is a one time event. She said a friend “got saved” but the person rarely attends church, hasn’t amended their life, and just because they went up to the front of the church & said a few words with the minister, she said they are “saved”. She doesn’t think that I am “saved” as a Catholic. She said I can be “saved” by praying some words. I don’t understand this mentality. Also, she talks all the time about being “born again”. I’m not sure I understand that concept either. I am a devout Catholic convert. I’ve been baptized, I attend Mass, I go to Confession, I do all the things I believe (and Catholicism teaches) I need to do in order to be in a state of grace. She also talks about “being raptured” away from here during the end times. Can any protestants out there explain to me these concepts? When I talk with her, I’d like to understand better what these concepts mean to Protestants, so that I may better explain our doctrine on these issues in relation to her understanding. Thanks.

I think at the least that is a bit harsh, of coarse your saved.

 

[colinberry1]

Well I think you just need to be a decent human being who cares for each other, God does not expect us to follow all the demands that men put upon us. you know when you do wrong make somebody’s life harder than what it should be, something that you yourself would not like to encounter, just keep it simple, God does not ask a lot from us. Just be truthful to yourselves and follow your conscience.

 

[Sarcelle]

Some people unfortunately use OSAS as a “Get out of hell free” card.
Faith is the start, works are the result of said faith.

My former church, the Church of Christ, also teaches this. Faith comes first, then works.

 

[SteveVH]

No. “Getting saved” is initial conversion, the response to the tug of the Spirit on the heart after one has encountered the proclamation of the gospel

What if one’s initial conversion doesn’t last real long and they return to their former, sinful life? Are they saved? It would be more accurate for a Christian to say that they are “getting saved” their entire life. Whether they will be saved cannot be determined. If I am in the middle of a lake my initial response (conversion) is that I am going to swim in the direction of the boat, but I’m not really saved until I have climbed out of the water and into the boat, right? I can’t say “I am saved” simply because I see the boat and desire to be in it. I may not persevere.

The response is to acknowledge that Christ is Lord, he has died for our sins, and to confess that we are sinners and to ask his forgiveness assured that we are forgiven, and to “go and sin no more.”

And what happens when we fail to “go and sin no more”, as each and every one of us does?

**If **we continue to walk in this, we have assurance that we are saved and will be saved if we continue in faith and trust and obedience to Christ.

Sorry, if this was true then Paul would not have had to work out his salvation in fear and trembling.

Being born again is becoming a new creation.

It is being born of the Spirit. About the being born of water, you might get different answers by what that means. Simply undergoing water baptism is not being born again however. That is how evangelicals see it.

Do they realize that this contradicts what the Church has always believed, since the time of the Apostles?

 

[ltwin]

What if one’s initial conversion doesn’t last real long and they return to their former, sinful life? Are they saved? It would be more accurate for a Christian to say that they are “getting saved” their entire life. Whether they will be saved cannot be determined. If I am in the middle of a lake my initial response (conversion) is that I am going to swim in the direction of the boat, but I’m not really saved until I have climbed out of the water and into the boat, right? I can’t say “I am saved” simply because I see the boat and desire to be in it. I may not persevere.

You may not persevere. You may persevere. That is not the issue. When the woman who was about to be stoned for adultery was rescued by Jesus, in that moment she was saved and delivered. We don’t know if she obeyed his command to go and sin no more. We don’t know what happened to her ultimately in eternity. What we do know is that Jesus stepped into her life when she was about to die in her sin and rescued her.

In the same way, when we put our trust in Christ and encounter his grace and forgiveness we are truly saved by Jesus. Yes, we don’t know what ultimately will happen. We do know there is possibility to fall away and that we must continue to “work out our salvation” but if we’re working it out that means we have it to begin with.

And what happens when we fail to “go and sin no more”, as each and every one of us does?

We will all sin. We all must confess and be reconciled to God through Christ. However, confessing sin is not a license to do whatever you want and simply claim you’re already forgiven. We must be on the watch that we do not get entangled in besetting sin. If we continue to engage in the same sinful behavior then that is not true repentance, and it eventually will lead to indifference to the conviction of the Holy Spirit in our lives. That is very dangerous. It is not simply confessing sin. It is repenting of it that we must do. Failure to repent can lead to a loss of salvation.

Sorry, if this was true then Paul would not have had to work out his salvation in fear and trembling.

What? I’m not talking about having 100 percent knowledge that “we” are going to heaven. I’m talking about having assurance that God will keep his promises to those who trust in him.

We have assurance that God keeps his promises. He has told us what is required of us. If we obey him, we can be assured that he will keep his promises towards us. We can be assured that as we work out our salvation, God will not simply damn us to hell because we were already “predestined” for it anyway, or he is arbitrary and just feels like damning people who have trusted and served him to hell because he can do whatever he wants. If we don’t have assurance that God’s word is true, what do we have?

You can take issue with the “saved” terminology all you want, but one thing you can’t do is assume that everyone who uses it is working from a OSAS frame of mind. I don’t believe in eternal security. I believe in conditional security of the believer. I believe it is possible to fall away. It is possible that I could fall away in the future, but for the present, I personally know that I am saved because Christ has saved me from sin and myself. I could in the future fall away. I could in the future be lying on my deathbed cursing Christ and everything he created. Obviously, if I did that, no I would not be saved, even though earlier in my life I had possessed a true faith in Christ.

We have free will. That doesn’t stop when we get saved. We must continually choose to offer up ourselves as living sacrifices. It is not a one time decision. It is a daily decision. It is something we must live.

 

[SteveVH]

You may not persevere. You may persevere. That is not the issue. When the woman who was about to be stoned for adultery was rescued by Jesus, in that moment she was saved and delivered. We don’t know if she obeyed his command to go and sin no more. We don’t know what happened to her ultimately in eternity.

If we don’t know what happened to her in eternity then we cannot say that she has been saved. That is my point. In this case I believe that we do know that she has been saved as she has been cannonized a saint. To say “she was saved” when we cannot know seems rather pointless, however, as it looses all meaning.

What we do know is that Jesus stepped into her life when she was about to die in her sin and rescued her.

Yes. One of my favorite Bible stories; God’s mercy and justice in action.

In the same way, when we put our trust in Christ and encounter his grace and forgiveness we are truly saved by Jesus. Yes, we don’t know what ultimately will happen. We do know there is possibility to fall away and that we must continue to “work out our salvation” but if we’re working it out that means we have it to begin with.

Agreed.

We will all sin. We all must confess and be reconciled to God through Christ. However, confessing sin is not a license to do whatever you want and simply claim you’re already forgiven. We must be on the watch that we do not get entangled in besetting sin. If we continue to engage in the same sinful behavior then that is not true repentance, and it eventually will lead to indifference to the conviction of the Holy Spirit in our lives. That is very dangerous. It is not simply confessing sin. It is repenting of it that we must do. Failure to repent can lead to a loss of salvation.

Yes, repenting requires a sincere desire to turn away from sin toward grace. In the Catholic sacrament of Reconciliation it matters not what the priest says or does, if one is not sincere in turning away from sin, if one does not have some degree of contrition, they receive nothing. God reads our hearts.

And so I see that you do believe that one can loose one’s salvation. Would you also then agree that one cannot, at one moment of their life state that they are saved as that statement would require for a certainty that one would never sin again?

It is very possible that we agree more than we disagree. For instance, it would be possible to say that immediately after one is Bapized, one is saved. We believe that all sin is washed away at that moment. But we can loose that salvation, thus the necessity of Reconciliation; to fill us with saving grace once again.

What? I’m not talking about having 100 percent knowledge that “we” are going to heaven. I’m talking about having assurance that God will keep his promises to those who trust in him.

I could not agree more. God always keeps his promises. One of those, however, is that he will never interfere in our free will. In any case, if you are not talking about being 100% sure that you are going to heaven then can you say you are saved?

We have assurance that God keeps his promises. He has told us what is required of us. If we obey him, we can be assured that he will keep his promises towards us. We can be assured that as we work out our salvation, God will not simply damn us to hell because we were already “predestined” for it anyway, or he is arbitrary and just feels like damning people who have trusted and served him to hell because he can do whatever he wants. If we don’t have assurance that God’s word is true, what do we have?

God’s word is true, and he talks about hell more than he talks about heaven. God does not throw people into hell. They run to hell, away from God and God honors their decision. They have rejected his saving grace and have chosen a life far from God. That is exactly what they get, for eternity. You know, if we feel bad about people going to hell, and we do, imagine how Christ feels. He gave his life for them.

So, far from damning people who have trusted and served him, he died for all of us, even the worst among us and offers salvation to all. It is, however, up to us to respond to his grace and there’s the rub. He keeps his promises, but often we do not. He honors our decisions.

You can take issue with the “saved” terminology all you want, but one thing you can’t do is assume that everyone who uses it is working from a OSAS frame of mind.

Yes, I’m beginning to see that.

I don’t believe in eternal security. I believe in conditional security of the believer. I believe it is possible to fall away. It is possible that I could fall away in the future, but for the present, I personally know that I am saved because Christ has saved me from sin and myself. I could in the future fall away. I could in the future be lying on my deathbed cursing Christ and everything he created. Obviously, if I did that, no I would not be saved, even though earlier in my life I had possessed a true faith in Christ.

We have free will. That doesn’t stop when we get saved. We must continually choose to offer up ourselves as living sacrifices. It is not a one time decision. It is a daily decision. It is something we must live.

Wow. I believe we are on the same page. Thanks for your comments, you cleared a lot up.

 

[colinberry1]

Well none of us will ever know who is saved until the time has come.
I would have thought it depends how much of Satan you have in you, even though you refuse to believe it, in these days he has recruited a tremendous amount of followers or shall I say supporters who do nothing to prevent him from ruling this beautiful planet. The role we all play between good and bad.
Good vs Satan
youtube.com/watch?v=ThL1wp445A8&feature=player_embedded

 

[ltwin]

If we don’t know what happened to her in eternity then we cannot say that she has been saved. That is my point. In this case I believe that we do know that she has been saved as she has been cannonized a saint. To say “she was saved” when we cannot know seems rather pointless, however, as it looses all meaning.

I see your point. However, words tend to take on different meanings with different groups. It just so happens that many Arminians have invested the “saved” word with just that meaning: if at ever in time we put our trust in Christ, have repented of sins, and are obedient we can rightly say we “are” saved. At the same time, no one can say with certainty that he “will” be saved. The salvation we have received, or maybe its better to say the security of our salvation, is conditional.

Yes, repenting requires a sincere desire to turn away from sin toward grace. In the Catholic sacrament of Reconciliation it matters not what the priest says or does, if one is not sincere in turning away from sin, if one does not have some degree of contrition, they receive nothing. God reads our hearts.

Not to draw a too definite analogy on it since I realize that the sacrament of Reconciliation and the evangelical “sinner’s prayer” are very different, I would like to say that is how my tradition views saying the “sinner’s prayer” or any kind of confession of faith in Christ however it may happen. The person must mean what they are saying. They must have true sorrow over their sins and a real desire to repent. And when they fail, which they will inevitably do, they must approach the throne of grace with true sorrow for sin and a real intention to repent.

And so I see that you do believe that one can loose one’s salvation. Would you also then agree that one cannot, at one moment of their life state that they are saved as that statement would require for a certainty that one would never sin again?

Yes, I believe salvation can be forfeited. I don’t see why saying, “I am saved” in reference to the present “requires for a certainty that one would never sin again.” In this life, there is no such thing as sinless perfection, and thank God that he does not require sinless perfection from us. Christ is our perfection and the author and perfector of our faith. So, to simply answer your question, no I don’t agree.

I do realize the great confusion it has caused, and one thing being on Catholic Forums has taught me is that when talking to people from outside my evangelical circle I need to be more cautious about terminology so that I don’t come across as being a OSAS proponent.

It is very possible that we agree more than we disagree. For instance, it would be possible to say that immediately after one is Bapized, one is saved. We believe that all sin is washed away at that moment. But we can loose that salvation, thus the necessity of Reconciliation; to fill us with saving grace once again.

That is in many ways how we see initial conversion and confession thereafter. There is a recognition (and I’m coming from a more Wesleyan-Holiness/Pentecostal background so) that as someone matures in Christ they are transformed more into the image of Christ, so that it becomes more easier to live the life of holiness that we are called to live. However, in this life we can never attain “sinless perfection” and always need God’s grace.

The problem is that many Christians who have been Christians a long time never seem to mature in their faith. They just stay babe’s in Christ and that can be frustrating.

I could not agree more. God always keeps his promises. One of those, however, is that he will never interfere in our free will. In any case, if you are not talking about being 100% sure that you are going to heaven then can you say you are saved?

It’s just the word we use. It is a quick and easy word to denote one’s relation to Christ. I “am” saved in the present, even though its entirely possible that I will “not” be saved in the future. We are running the race, and we have to keep on keepin on to reach the prize. It’s just about knowing who you are in Christ. You are the redeemed. “Let the redeemed say so.” You are more than a conqueror. You are sons and daughters. You are a holy nation, a royal priesthood. It’s just about knowing who you are as a child of God.

God’s word is true, and he talks about hell more than he talks about heaven. God does not throw people into hell. They run to hell, away from God and God honors their decision. They have rejected his saving grace and have chosen a life far from God. That is exactly what they get, for eternity. You know, if we feel bad about people going to hell, and we do, imagine how Christ feels. He gave his life for them.

I totally agree.

So, far from damning people who have trusted and served him, he died for all of us, even the worst among us and offers salvation to all. It is, however, up to us to respond to his grace and there’s the rub. He keeps his promises, but often we do not. He honors our decisions.

Yes. Exactly. I was not saying that God damned people to hell. I was saying that we know that because God is who he is he is faithful. Because he is faithful, we can be assured that God is not arbitrary or unjust or that he will break his promises.

Further, we can be assured that what God says concerning salvation, he will do that which he has said. We can’t have assurance that we will be saved. But we can have assurance that those who choose to persevere in what Christ has done for us will be saved. To persevere or not is a choice that we must make with our own free will.

 

[colinberry1]

Well none of us will ever know who is saved until the time has come.
I would have thought it depends how much of Satan you have in you, even though you refuse to believe it, in these days he has recruited a tremendous amount of followers or shall I say supporters who do nothing to prevent him from ruling this beautiful planet. The role we all play between good and bad.
Good vs Satan
youtube.com/watch?v=ThL1wp445A8&feature=player_embedded

   plato's republic

(1) youtube.com/watch?v=m0qZfsFo2RI
(2) youtube.com/watch?v=alWfQ7mZXzw
(3) youtube.com/watch?v=lBaDKsVwI0A
(4) youtube.com/watch?v=M06ZKeLx82E
(5) youtube.com/watch?v=nBaIbOBwdzA
(6) youtube.com/watch?v=o0OmK4N4S2c

Plato’s cave analysis
youtube.com/watch?v=axARKd24eHo

 

[SteveVH]

I see your point. However, words tend to take on different meanings with different groups. It just so happens that many Arminians have invested the “saved” word with just that meaning: if at ever in time we put our trust in Christ, have repented of sins, and are obedient we can rightly say we “are” saved. At the same time, no one can say with certainty that he “will” be saved. The salvation we have received, or maybe its better to say the security of our salvation, is conditional.

Not to draw a too definite analogy on it since I realize that the sacrament of Reconciliation and the evangelical “sinner’s prayer” are very different, I would like to say that is how my tradition views saying the “sinner’s prayer” or any kind of confession of faith in Christ however it may happen. The person must mean what they are saying. They must have true sorrow over their sins and a real desire to repent. And when they fail, which they will inevitably do, they must approach the throne of grace with true sorrow for sin and a real intention to repent.

Yes, I believe salvation can be forfeited. I don’t see why saying, “I am saved” in reference to the present “requires for a certainty that one would never sin again.” In this life, there is no such thing as sinless perfection, and thank God that he does not require sinless perfection from us. Christ is our perfection and the author and perfector of our faith. So, to simply answer your question, no I don’t agree.

I do realize the great confusion it has caused, and one thing being on Catholic Forums has taught me is that when talking to people from outside my evangelical circle I need to be more cautious about terminology so that I don’t come across as being a OSAS proponent.

That is in many ways how we see initial conversion and confession thereafter. There is a recognition (and I’m coming from a more Wesleyan-Holiness/Pentecostal background so) that as someone matures in Christ they are transformed more into the image of Christ, so that it becomes more easier to live the life of holiness that we are called to live. However, in this life we can never attain “sinless perfection” and always need God’s grace.

The problem is that many Christians who have been Christians a long time never seem to mature in their faith. They just stay babe’s in Christ and that can be frustrating.

It’s just the word we use. It is a quick and easy word to denote one’s relation to Christ. I “am” saved in the present, even though its entirely possible that I will “not” be saved in the future. We are running the race, and we have to keep on keepin on to reach the prize. It’s just about knowing who you are in Christ. You are the redeemed. “Let the redeemed say so.” You are more than a conqueror. You are sons and daughters. You are a holy nation, a royal priesthood. It’s just about knowing who you are as a child of God.

I totally agree.

Yes. Exactly. I was not saying that God damned people to hell. I was saying that we know that because God is who he is he is faithful. Because he is faithful, we can be assured that God is not arbitrary or unjust or that he will break his promises.

Further, we can be assured that what God says concerning salvation, he will do that which he has said. We can’t have assurance that we will be saved. But we can have assurance that those who choose to persevere in what Christ has done for us will be saved. To persevere or not is a choice that we must make with our own free will.

I really appreciate the discussion. It makes me wonder how many times we think we disagree with someone when it really is just a matter of communication. It goes against the grain of a Catholic to say “I am saved” because of the sin of presumption. But I would certainly say that as I walk out of the confessional, but only because I trust that Christ have forgiven me. Just give me about 15 seconds, however, and all that could change.

In any event, rather than saying I am saved I would say that I am confident of my salvation, kowing that I must persevere to the end. That’s probably the best way I could put it.

God bless.

Steve