Getting to Heaven?

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Aequitas

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I was on another forum, and a guy said, he’s a Catholic, and he said that you don’t need to accept Jesus as your Savior to get to Heaven. That if you live a good life, you’ve already subconsciously choosen to follow Jesus, and that you don’t need to ever express that in your heart. Is this what the Church teaches?
 
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Aequitas:
I was on another forum, and a guy said, he’s a Catholic, and he said that you don’t need to accept Jesus as your Savior to get to Heaven. That if you live a good life, you’ve already subconsciously choosen to follow Jesus, and that you don’t need to ever express that in your heart. Is this what the Church teaches?
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No. Let’s say you live like a saint, except you choose not to believe in Jesus. This ain’t gonna cut it. Then again, let’s say you “accept Jesus into your heart” and then live like a heathen. This ain’t gonna cut it either. We must have faith in Him *and *obey His commands.👍
 
I have heard that if you knowingly refuse to love Jesus and except him as your savior, you will go to hell. But if you did not know about Jesus because you couldn’t, then you will meet him in purgatory. Example - a person who has never heard of Christianity because he lives to far could go to purgatory because he has lived a good life of treating people the way he wants to be treated, and following the ten commandments. Even though he has never heard of them. It is kind of like the argument from conscience
 
D Quintero:
I have heard that if you knowingly refuse to love Jesus and except him as your savior, you will go to hell. But if you did not know about Jesus because you couldn’t, then you will meet him in purgatory. Example - a person who has never heard of Christianity because he lives to far could go to purgatory because he has lived a good life of treating people the way he wants to be treated, and following the ten commandments. Even though he has never heard of them. It is kind of like the argument from conscience
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Yes read the Catechism #847: “Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.”
 
Who knows what is the cutoff point for those who get in and those who do not ??? Only God knows for sure.

It is reasonable to expect that God will not send good people to Hell. We know from St. Paul’s writing that some people who are not baptized will be as IF they are baptized because they do the will of God. AND we also know that some who are baptized will be treated as if they are NOT baptized because they do not do the will of God.

SO it take more than just the mere physical presence at a Baptism. How much more is up to God.

Jesus tells us to love God with our whole heart, mind, and soul. How often do we fail to meet this command, and how much leniency will God allow us ?

No one is perfect except the Lord, we all fail in one way or another. Yet we are to strive for perfection, and we must show our love for God, by treating our neighbors with love and charity. But again how much love and how much chairty ?

We are selfish beings, we more often think of ourselves long before we consider others. That is part of our nature, self preservation and self interest.

I think those of us that think of others much more than we think of ourselves may end up as saints right away. Those of us who are close to 50-50 may have a bit of work to do in Purgatory. Those of us who never consider others will probably be in deep trouble.

We will all be judged on love. How much do we love God and how much do we love our neighbors. And the latter often shows or proves how much we really love God. IF we can love even the most dispicable and lowly unlikable folks, then we will have seen Christ in everyone.

I think some really nasty personalities are put in our lives to test us. It’s easy to love friends and relatives, what able disagreeable folks ? They can be a really difficult challenge.
 
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Genesis315:
We must have faith in Him
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This is where it stops.

And if you have faith in him, you will obey his commands. But doing works will not be necessary for salvation.
 
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BluegrassJimmie:
This is where it stops.

And if you have faith in him, you will obey his commands. But doing works will not be necessary for salvation.
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I think that’s true to a certain extent. I believe that “faith without works is dead,” so I think that if you don’t have any good deeds to show for your faith, it might not be so real.
 
Exactly. Our faith is manifest by our works, but it is faith alone that saves us. Works has nothing to do with salvation.

BUT, as you mentioned, if we say we have faith, but our works do not show it, then there is something amiss. That’s why the book of James is so cool.
 
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BluegrassJimmie:
This is where it stops.

And if you have faith in him, you will obey his commands. But doing works will not be necessary for salvation.
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Well, this is the Protestant answer. It’s a doctrine called sola fide which was invented by Martin Luther in the early 1500s.
 
I once heard another poster in a different thread say that we would be suprised how many people are in hell, however I had great difficulty accepting this. For an all loving and all forgiving God would he really find it easy to cast people into hell for the rest of eternity, just because they have failed to live the life of a strict catholic/ christian? I personally believe that I would be suprised how many people are in heaven. 🙂
 
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Genesis315:
Well, this is the Protestant answer. It’s a doctrine called sola fide which was invented by Martin Luther in the early 1500s.
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Invented by Luther or the written word of God? I am sure you are familiar with:
Ephesians 2:
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God-- 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
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Couple this with James 2. Our works do not save us. Christ’s work saved us.
 
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Aequitas:
I was on another forum, and a guy said, he’s a Catholic, and he said that you don’t need to accept Jesus as your Savior to get to Heaven.
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There is need of a distinction here:​

  1. If there is salvation at all, it comes and can come from and through Christ and Him alone. Not from man, not from anything in all creation, but from Christ alone.
  2. It does not follow, that all who are saved know the words “Jesus Christ is the only Saviour” - we are not saved by verbal formulas, but by the grace of God.
A. What we assent to, is not the the words, but what they express: which is why the mere words “Lord, Lord…” are useless, if they are not a recognition of the reality of the Lordship of Christ which they express. The reality expressed by the words is what is crucial, not the words themselves, useful as words can be.

B. And knowing the words, does not prove knowledge of, or appreciation of, the wealth of their meaning; the Christian knowledge of God in this life, though real, is very slight, and is a shadow compared to the full Light of God’s Presence - we always “see” in a bleary way on earth (when St. Paul talks about “seeing through a mirror darkly” in 1 Corinthians 13, he is not referring to the glass mirrors we use, but to mirrors of polished metal - which were capable of becoming discoloured and dull: that is the medium in which we see God in this life; we do not see God by clear unclouded vision here, but in the light of faith, which is is surrounded and hindered by a lot of shadow.)
  1. God does not need us to set Him working - a very obvious point; so obvious, that perhaps it is worth repeating. Since then He is not dependent on us, He saves as He wills to save - He saves by the means He wills, He saves whom He wills, when He wills, where He wills. And He does not have to ask the permissioin of of any man in earth to do so.
  2. However, since He has called certain people to be His Church, He has set before us a way of salvation - and this Way, is Christ Himself. Since Christ is the appointed way, we cannot go looking for another. If we know, or suspect, which is the right way, we must do all that is in us to find whether it is indeed the right way. And we have to be honest and earnest in doing so. For, though God has no need of us, we very definitely need the means of salvation He gives us.
  3. Although there can be salvation outside the visible body of the Church; to be saved at all, is to be related to that body. In that sense at least, there is no salvation outside the Church - there can’t be, for to be saved is to be in it, even if not all those in it know all others in it. So a Hindu who co-operates with such graces as he receives, knowing Christ truly (for nothing is beyond the saving power of God) by the grace of Christ (even if not by His name) is in some manner truly in the Church - even if he knows nothing of it. Not because of Hinduism - but because of Christ. For Christ is the Almighty Saviour, Who can save us without our knowing Him by Name.
That if you live a good life, you’ve already subconsciously choosen to follow Jesus, and that you don’t need to ever express that in your heart. Is this what the Church teaches?
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1. Is the question about salvation or about getting to Heaven ?​

There is a great deal in the NT about being in Christ - but very little about “getting to Heaven”. Salvation (= life under the Reign of God) begins here on earth - not when we die.

“Getting to Heaven” isn’t worth a straw if it is not communion with Christ - the problem with talk about “g. t. H.”, is that our well-being all too easily takes the centre of the stage, when it is far less important than Christ. It thus becomes a subtle form of egotism, of focus on “me me me” - as if Christ and His Glory were inferior in importance to our comfort. This is implicit self-idolatry, and puts us right back in the mess from which Christ rescues us. ##
 
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Libero:
I once heard another poster in a different thread say that we would be suprised how many people are in hell, however I had great difficulty accepting this. For an all loving and all forgiving God would he really find it easy to cast people into hell for the rest of eternity, just because they have failed to live the life of a strict catholic/ christian? I personally believe that I would be suprised how many people are in heaven. 🙂
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God does not require us to be any specific church affiliation. We are required to:
  1. Recognize our sin
  2. Realize that our sin keeps us from God.
  3. Recognize our need for atonement to become blameless again in God’s eyes.
  4. Repent of our sin
  5. Have FAITH in Christ’s completed work which is sufficient for the forgiveness of all sins.
Then we:
  1. Are regenerated, or born again, as a new creation in Christ.
  2. Are progressively sanctified (made more like Christ) through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
  3. Live out our faith by our works for God.
 
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BluegrassJimmie:
God does not require us to be any specific church affiliation. We are required to:
  1. Recognize our sin
  2. Realize that our sin keeps us from God.
  3. Recognize our need for atonement to become blameless again in God’s eyes.
  4. Repent of our sin
  5. Have FAITH in Christ’s completed work which is sufficient for the forgiveness of all sins.
Then we:
  1. Are regenerated, or born again, as a new creation in Christ.
  2. Are progressively sanctified (made more like Christ) through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
  3. Live out our faith by our works for God.
Click to expand...
We MUST keep confessing. It’s a popular belief that when we are told to confess it means to acknowledge our sins and sinfullness. This belief is completely antiBiblical. The word for confess in the Bible is in a tense which means to “continually confess.” It very clearly tells us we must confess continually, not just acknowledge a sinful nature.

It is also antiBiblical to say that our works are a result of our faith. Works are a key component of faith without which faith does not exist. We can’t simply say that works result from faith, because among other things James tells us that works and faith are two seperate entities which must work together in an active partnership (2:21).

Also note that even St. Paul said he was completeing in his suffering what was “lacking” in Christ’s afflictions (Col 1:24).
 
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BluegrassJimmie:
Invented by Luther or the written word of God? I am sure you are familiar with:

Couple this with James 2. Our works do not save us. Christ’s work saved us.
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Luther. I am sure you are familiar with works of the law vs. works of the Law. I am sure that you know that the works mentioned here are the works of the Mosaic Law and not going to Mass every week, abstaining from fish every Friday (or some other form of penance), being proud for the sake of arguement…
 
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Lazerlike42:
We MUST keep confessing. It’s a popular belief that when we are told to confess it means to acknowledge our sins and sinfullness. This belief is completely antiBiblical. The word for confess in the Bible is in a tense which means to “continually confess.” It very clearly tells us we must confess continually, not just acknowledge a sinful nature.
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I agree, we must continually confess our sins to the Lord and seek forgiveness constantly. I am sorry I came across unclearly on that.
It is also antiBiblical to say that our works are a result of our faith. Works are a key component of faith without which faith does not exist. We can’t simply say that works result from faith, because among other things James tells us that works and faith are two seperate entities which must work together in an active partnership (2:21).
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Let me ask this: could we really do good, God-honoring works unless we first had faith in him?
 
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adstrinity:
I am sure that you know that the works mentioned here are the works of the Mosaic Law and not going to Mass every week, abstaining from fish every Friday (or some other form of penance), being proud for the sake of arguement…
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So we don’t need to follow works… except the ones you listed above?
 
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BluegrassJimmie:
God does not require us to be any specific church affiliation. We are required to:
  1. Recognize our sin
  2. Realize that our sin keeps us from God.
  3. Recognize our need for atonement to become blameless again in God’s eyes.
  4. Repent of our sin
  5. Have FAITH in Christ’s completed work which is sufficient for the forgiveness of all sins.
Then we:
  1. Are regenerated, or born again, as a new creation in Christ.
  2. Are progressively sanctified (made more like Christ) through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
  3. Live out our faith by our works for God.
Click to expand...

However, the Church is a Divinely ordained means of salvation, built up by Christ Himself (not by mere man - man cannot found the Church: this is an act so far beyond the power of man, or of any creature, that God alone can do it. It is nothing less than an act of God the Creator)​

If we wish to be “obedient children”, we cannot be solo Christians. 🙂 At least in some sense, the Church is necessary for salvation - and since Christ is the Saviour, and we are the beneficiaries of His saving act, we do not get to choose how we are saved; He tells us how we are saved. And though the Church is not the whole of our salvation - for Christ is her Founder and Shepherd, her Lord and her Redeemer and her Sovereign, to whom she is for ever subject in love - she is nonetheless of very great importance in our salvation.

Christ Himself commends His Church to us - for when Saul persecuted the Church, He was really persecuting Christ. It was Christ whom He wounded, imprisoned, harrassed, planned to persecute, and it was against Christ that he “breathed threats and slaughter” (Acts 9).

Once he had been converted, it was he who wrote that “Christ loved the Church, and gave Himself for her…”; and He shows this Love by providing for His Church, as when He gave her apostles, prophets, teachers, presbyters, bishops, and so on. The unfailing goodness of Christ to His Church shows both the greatness of His Love for her, and, by inference, her importance in His plans: for He is even kinder to her than He was to Israel - and that is saying an awful lot. If she were not very important to Him, why so much care and such unceasing kindness and Love for her ? Besides, “no man ever hated his own body” - and Christ does not hate His. That is, He is no way hates His Church, but rescues her from every evil, even when she is bveing passive aggressive and is being her own worst enemy.

To say these things of the Church is not praising our work. Nebuchadnezzar does that in Daniel 4 - “Is not this Babylon the great, which I have built ?”. To insist on the importance and the graces of the Church, “all glorious within”, is to praise Him alone Whose Body and Whose building she is - for that not our work, but God’s. All her excellencies and splendours are from Christ, and from no other source. ##
 
Do you believe the Church to be all believers, or the Church to be the Roman Catholic Church?

I agree that both the church as in all believers and the church as in the building you go to is extremely important and vital to the Christian walk. I believe this is also appropos in light of Ecclesiastes 4.

But I do not understand what you mean by saying the church is a divinely ordained means of salvation. Will you explain?
 
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