Ghost Priests Offering Mass

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Actually, I don’t think that the priesthood ends in death. Certainly St. Peter doesn’t stop excersising his mission with the Church. If you read the preface of the Apostles, one of the lines notes that “from their place in heaven, they guide us still.” Furthermore, when the Holy Father imparted the Apostolic Blessing (and plenary indulgence), he mentioned the authority “given to us by the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul.”

Incidentally, how about the psalm, “You are a priest forever, in the line of Melchizedek” that is chanted during presbyteral and episcopal ordinations? This same psalm is also chanted down here for the funerals of priests. Inasmuch as this psalm points to Jesus and his High Priesthood, it can certainly apply to both the presbyterate and the bishops, including the popes.

The OP brings up something rahter fascinating. Lately, there have been a lot of programs on both the History and Biography Channels about hauntings. Some of these hauntings supposedly include priests, such as the one in St. Batholomew’s in London. I just watch them for entertainment value only. Nonetheless, they are rather interesting.
Actually, the theology of the sacraments tells us that Peter handed down his authority, not shared it. That’s why the Pope’s prayer is worded that way. When we refer to Peter in the Roman Catholic Church, we are not refering to the Apostle, but to the current Peter. Peter is both a historical figure of the past and an office in the Church. We also refer to the bishops as the successors of the Apostles. There cannot be a shared papacy or a shared bishopric. The office is handed down from generation to generation.

The reason why it is handed down is because the person who held the office ceases to hold it at the moment of death. Think of it this way, a deceased priest can no longer celebrate the sacraments. Think of the saints who were priests during life. We do not invoke them to absolve our sins. They cannot do that. We invoke them to guide us and to pray for us. That they can do. During the mass the priest includes the sains in the Eucharistic prayer. But they are not called upon to offer the sacrifice even those who were priests, only he can do that. he invokes their name to offer praise and prayers of petition with the Church.

The only office that is held in perpetuity is that held by founders of religious communities. They continue to be the fathers and mothers of their community and they continue to hold authority over their communities in a loose sense. The community is bound to maintain the spirit and the charism of the founder. But even in that case, the successors are held to obey the founders by the Church and by their rule, not by the deceased founder.

The priesthood is a state in the Catholic Church. That state belongs to a living person, not to one who is deceased. For example, when a pope or another bishop dies, the seat is empty. The deceased is no longer a bishop, therefore his particular church is without an apostle until one assumes the post.

If the deceased bishop were still a priest, he would still enjoy the fullness of the priesthood in which case he would also be entitled to his see.

It is true that scripture says “you are a priest forever”, but the Church’s interpretation of that is that the priest is a priest until death. Let us not forget that it is up to the Church to interpret the meaning of these passages.

Jesus continues to be the high priest by virtue of his resurrection. He is physically alive. Had he remained death, his priestly sacrifice would have died with him.

Finally, let’s look at the sacrament of the Eucharist. The priest acts in the place of Christ. Christ was very much alive and in this world when he offered his sacrifice.

The same rule that applies to marriage applies to orders. Remember St. Paul who said that there are no differences in the Kingdom of Heaven, no free man or slave. In the Gospel Jesus says that the woman who married the brothers is no one’s wife in the aferlife, because those relationships do not exist.

Since we are talking about sacraments that invoke an ontological change in the recipient (marriage and holy orders), we can also assume that the same logic applies to Holy Orders, since it operates on the same principal. There is an ontological change, but that change takes place within a living person and it is efficacious until death.

Hope this helps.

JR 🙂

PS You do present some interesting ideas for thought.
 
It is true that scripture says “you are a priest forever”, but the Church’s interpretation of that is that the priest is a priest until death.
Can you point out, specifically, where the Church teaches this interpretation?
Since we are talking about sacraments that invoke an ontological change in the recipient (marriage and holy orders), we can also assume that the same logic applies to Holy Orders, since it operates on the same principal. There is an ontological change, but that change takes place within a living person and it is efficacious until death.
What do you mean when you say marriage is a sacrament that invokes an *ontological change?

Scrpture and, thus the Church, specifically teaches that marriage is severed by the death of a spouse.

(* NB: I know what *ontological *means – I am just not sure what *you *mean by it in this context?)

tee
 
JR:

Church teaching is (and has been for centuries) that Ordination is a permanent change to the soul, just like baptism and confirmation/chrismation.

From the CCC:
VII. The Effects of the Sacrament of Holy Orders

The indelible character

1581 This sacrament configures the recipient to Christ by a special grace of the Holy Spirit, so that he may serve as Christ’s instrument for his Church. By ordination one is enabled to act as a representative of Christ, Head of the Church, in his triple office of priest, prophet, and king.

1582 As in the case of Baptism and Confirmation this share in Christ’s office is granted once for all. the sacrament of Holy Orders, like the other two, confers an indelible spiritual character and cannot be repeated or conferred temporarily.

1583 It is true that someone validly ordained can, for a just reason, be discharged from the obligations and functions linked to ordination, or can be forbidden to exercise them; but he cannot become a layman again in the strict sense,** because the character imprinted by ordination is for ever.** the vocation and mission received on the day of his ordination mark him permanently.
Emphasis mine.
 
I agree with both of you, that the Sacraments of Baptism, Holy Orders, and Marriage are changes to the soul. Thus an ontological change that man cannot undo.

But if we look at the rite of ordination, the Church uses the words from scripture, “you are a priest forever” and then we look at the Church’s tradition regarding saints and she does not invoke those who were clerics as such. She invokes them for guidance and prayers, not to perform duties that are proper to the ordained: deacons, priests and bishops.

I can see where you’re going with this and there is something here that is obvious, which I had not thought of until now. The soul of the priest remains the soul of a priest. I can agree with that.

The question remains, based on the Chruch’s traditional manner of invoking saints who were ordained, especially the Apostles, does the invididual have power once the soul and body are separated at death?

I believe this is why the Church uses words like “passed on to us” or “handed down to us” and so forth. The power is literally handed down, though the soul remains the soul of a cleric.

The interesting question and I don’t know the answer other than what we see in tradition, is whether the soul has priestly powers when it is separated from the body? Because our belief in the sacraments is that it involves the entire person, not just the soul. The imprint is on the soul, but the whole person becomes a cleric when he is ordained, or a Christian when baptized or a scrament of Christ and her bride when married.

I’m not sure if I’m making sense. I know how I see it in my head, but it’s difficult to put into words.

JR 🙂
 
I agree with both of you, that the Sacraments of Baptism, Holy Orders, and
Code:
Marriage
are changes to the soul.
In what way do you think you are agreeing with me? :confused:
“both of you”?]
Thus an
Code:
ontological
change that man cannot undo.
I repeat: What do you mean when you use this word? :confused:

tee
NB: I am not making any argument about, nor even granting the existence of, “ghost priests”. I just think you are mistaken in some things you have asserted about the sacraments of Holy Orders and Marriage.
 
In what way do you think you are agreeing with me? :confused:
“both of you”?]

I repeat: What do you mean when you use this word? :confused:

tee
NB: I am not making any argument about, nor even granting the existence of, “ghost priests”. I just think you are mistaken in some things you have asserted about the sacraments of Holy Orders and Marriage.
If you think that I’m mistaken don’t ask me questions. Just tell me where you think the mistake is. I may be mistaken or I may not be saying it as clearly as I thought I was. But I won’t know unless you explain.

Thanks.

JR 🙂
 
What do you think of the stories about people seeing ghosts of former priests offering Mass in church?

Is there any possibility for the Mass to be valid?
It is said that mass is heaven on earth.-JP2

It is also said that what happens in heaven, happens on earth, visa versa. (loosing etc.)

It is also said that when a Christian prays, he has legions of angels and saints praying with him.

It is plausable that some are seeing the reality of the mass.
 
It is said that mass is heaven on earth.-JP2

It is also said that what happens in heaven, happens on earth, visa versa. (loosing etc.)

It is also said that when a Christian prays, he has legions of angels and saints praying with him.

It is plausable that some are seeing the reality of the mass.
Code:
WOW!!!:getholy:
 
If you think that I’m mistaken don’t ask me questions. Just tell me where you think the mistake is. I may be mistaken or I may not be saying it as clearly as I thought I was. But I won’t know unless you explain.

Thanks.

JR 🙂
Hmmm – I might well be misunderstanding you, either through your poor expression or through my poor comprehension or a combination of the two. If you would answer my questions, I might come to understand you better and/or even recognize agreement with you.

But you’re the doctor – I shall try to do it without asking questions:
It is true that scripture says “you are a priest forever”, but the Church’s interpretation of that is that the priest is a priest until death.
I believe you are mistaken in asserting this (ie that the Church interprets this scripture in the way that you claim). I do not think you can point to a specific place where the Church teaches this. (If I could, I would post the whole of the Church’s teaching to demonstrate that this is absent, but there is a 3000 character limit)
Since we are talking about sacraments that invoke an ontological change in the recipient (marriage and holy orders), we can also assume that the same logic applies to Holy Orders, since it operates on the same principal. There is an ontological change, but that change takes place within a living person and it is efficacious until death.
You are either using the word *ontological *incorrectly here, or in a way that I do not understand. But I cannot ask you what you mean (nor, I presume, may you ask me what I mean by it), so I suppose we are at an impasse.

Scrpture and, thus the Church, specifically teaches that marriage is severed by the death of a spouse. Off the top of my head: Matthew 22:23-33; Mark 12:18-27; Luke 20:27-40; CCC 1665; CCC 2361; CIC 1123; CIC 1141 (among others).

=============
I agree with both of you, that the Sacraments of Baptism, Holy Orders, and
Code:
Marriage
are changes to the soul.
I disagree that you are agreeing with me (I presume I am one of “both of you”?*). I know of no teaching by the Church that Marriage changes the soul. Again, I am prevented from demonstrating that this proposition is absent from the teaching of the Church.

(* Apologies for the question)
Thus an
Code:
ontological
change that man cannot undo.
I repeat my assertion that you are using this word incorrectly or in a way I do not understand (and I cannot fathom what you mean without asking you the question).

tee
 
A few years ago on a hike above the treeline with 9 others, we passed a group of teenagers partying. We camped on the mountain for a couple of nights and hiked back out. When we passed the spot the teenagers had been partying, we ALL heard music. The guide said it was their residual vibration that we could hear because we were hundreds of miles away from civilization. 🙂

I saw a hole in the hand of a priest as he gave me the eucharist once, and when asked he said it was a sign for me, and me alone.
 
There is no way a ghost priest can offer Mass. Ghosts are associated with Satan. Mass on the other hand is an opportunity where Christ comes in the host as he promised on the last super. The two can not be at the same Table!!! The stronger one that is Christ will prevail!!
 
And we would need special rubrics:
The Lord be with you.

And with you-]r/-], spirit.
VC
First, The greeting: The Lord be with you. and the Response: And with your spirit. was originally used during the pre-Vatican II era. It is the direct English translation of Dominus vobiscum. Et cum espirtu tuo… which is now “And also with you”

So, meaning, we dont have need to have special rubrics here. by the way, rubrics for your information are the instructions written at the missal or sacramentary being used by the priest celebrant to guide him on the gestures or actions or whatever he is supposed to do during Mass.
 
Sacraments are outward signs of God to give grace and not handed down nor shared with us by the apostles. What the Apostles handed down to us, is the Teaching Authority of the Church.
When we refer to Peter in the Roman Catholic Church, we do refer to the Apostle. Yes, the bishops are the successors of the Apostles that is what we call Apostolic Succession. That is the "laying on of hands of the Ordaining Prelate to the Ordinandi whether as bishop or as a priest.

It is true that scripture says “you are a priest forever”. When we say, you are a priest forever, it is meant that a man ordained to the priesthood, remains as a priest and retains the “character” of a priest even if he left the priesthod and even after his death because the Sacrament of Holy Orders like the Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation leaves an indelible mark on the soul of the person who receives the sacrament. Take Note, Sacrament of Matrimony or marriage is not included here and it does not leave any mark on the soul, hence, marriage is only valid when both parties is alive. But the bond of marriage is lost one’s the church declares that it is Null and Void.
 
JReducation;4604020:
Sacraments are outward signs of God to give grace and not handed down nor shared with us by the apostles. What the Apostles handed down to us, is the Teaching Authority of the Church.
When we refer to Peter in the Roman Catholic Church, we do refer to the Apostle. Yes, the bishops are the successors of the Apostles that is what we call Apostolic Succession. That is the "laying on of hands of the Ordaining Prelate to the Ordinandi whether as bishop or as a priest.

It is true that scripture says “you are a priest forever”. When we say, you are a priest forever, it is meant that a man ordained to the priesthood, remains as a priest and retains the “character” of a priest even if he left the priesthod and even after his death because the Sacrament of Holy Orders like the Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation leaves an indelible mark on the soul of the person who receives the sacrament. Take Note, Sacrament of Matrimony or marriage is not included here and it does not leave any mark on the soul, hence, marriage is only valid when both parties is alive. But the bond of marriage is lost one’s the church declares that it is Null and Void.
Thank you, Fr. Pete, for confirming what I have held regarding this matter.
 
But the bond of marriage is lost one’s the church declares that it is
Code:
Null and Void
.
With due respect, I think these are the incorrect words in the case of the death of a spouse.

I believe the Church teaches that the bond is *severed *by death rather than *nullified *nor voided. At the very least, it ceases to be an impediment to reception of another spouse in marriage or to holy orders (since those sacraments may be impeded by a bond to a (specifically) living spouse).

tee
 
With due respect, I think these are the incorrect words in the case of the death of a spouse.

I believe the Church teaches that the bond is *severed *by death rather than *nullified *nor voided. At the very least, it ceases to be an impediment to reception of another spouse in marriage or to holy orders (since those sacraments may be impeded by a bond to a (specifically) living spouse).

tee
Code:
I may be wrong, but I think he was talking about the annulment of marriage whcih can only be declared by the tribunal…
 
I may be wrong, but I think he was talking about the annulment of marriage whcih can only be declared by the tribunal…
I see it could have been intended that way.

If so, I happily admit my misinterpretation.

tee
 
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