Ghost Priests Offering Mass

[pprimeau1976]

What do you think of the stories about people seeing ghosts of former priests offering Mass in church?

Is there any possibility for the Mass to be valid?

Huh? Uh…well…some questions need to be answered first.

1. Does the ghostly priest have permission from the Bishop to say mass in his diocese?
2. Is the ghostly priest using ghostly bread and wine or real bread and wine? If it’s ghostly bread and wine, it would be improper matter and thus definitely invalidate the mass.

3)Will the ghost be able to say the words of institution (Take this, all of you…) even if the ghost no longer has a tongue or vocal cords? If not, it’s not valid.

 

[Father_Pete]

I may be wrong, but I think he was talking about the annulment of marriage whcih can only be declared by the tribunal…

Yes, you are correct, that is what i mean, once the Matrimonial Tribunal of each diocese declared that a marriage was NULL and VOID, meaning there was no “real marriage” that took place during the time of the event within their territory, both man and woman, if so wishes, may contract marriage to another person whom they wishes “to tie the knot with”… but that would only be after the Tribunal had approved the Annulment of Marriage… thank you…

I also wish to point out here, that a man loses his clerical state so to speak, once he decided to leave the ministry… but in cases of necessity he can and is bound to perform functions proper to an ordained minister for the salvation of souls… remember, he is still a priest. With regards to souls of priests who died already, I knew several stories that happened on different time and situation, wherein people saw images, most likely configured with the physical attributes of a dead priest. Perhaps, those souls are asking for our prayers. Let’s pray that may these souls in the mercy of God rest in peace! that’s the only and the best thing that we can do now, pray for them.

 

[tee_eff_em]

I may be wrong, but I think he was talking about the annulment of marriage whcih can only be declared by the tribunal…

On the other hand…

[Forgive me, I am not sure which parts, if any, of the quote below are [user]JReducation[/user]'s words and which are [user]Father Pete[/user]'s]

It is true that scripture says “you are a priest forever”. When we say, you are a priest forever, it is meant that a man ordained to the priesthood, remains as a priest and retains the “character” of a priest even if he left the priesthod and even after his death because the Sacrament of Holy Orders like the Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation leaves an indelible mark on the soul of the person who receives the sacrament. Take Note, Sacrament of Matrimony or marriage is not included here and it does not leave any mark on the soul, hence, marriage is only valid when both parties is alive. But the bond of marriage is lost one’s the church declares that it is Null and Void.

(With continued due respect) Even if this is a reference to the possibility of a tribunal to determine a marriage was null, that in itself is not a proof that marriage does not permanently change one’s soul. Holy orders can likewise be found to have been attempted invalidly or otherwise impeded and be determined to be null (and in such case, therefore, to have left the gentleman’s soul unchanged).

ie: Just because marriage may be able to be adjudged null does not indicate that, celebrated properly and validly, it does not change the recipients’ souls.
(Yet the Church does not teach so – My only point is that this is not proof of it)

tee

 

[Shoshana]

On the other hand…

[Forgive me, I am not sure which parts, if any, of the quote below are [user]JReducation[/user]'s words and which are [user]Father Pete[/user]'s]

(With continued due respect) Even if this is a reference to the possibility of a tribunal to determine a marriage was null, that in itself is not a proof that marriage does not permanently change one’s soul. Holy orders can likewise be found to have been attempted invalidly or otherwise impeded and be determined to be null (and in such case, therefore, to have left the gentleman’s soul unchanged).

ie: Just because marriage may be able to be adjudged null does not indicate that, celebrated properly and validly, it does not change the recipients’ souls.
(Yet the Church does not teach so – My only point is that this is not proof of it)

tee

As I understand it, when the church declares a marriage null and void, it is because there was no sacrament at the time. In other words, there was no marriage at all in the eyes of the church. Or, it is an invalid marriage due to circumstances determined by the church. My sister received an annulment a couple of years ago and was told there was no marriage had in the eyes fo the church…so there is no change on the soul

 

[tee_eff_em]

As I understand it, when the church declares a marriage null and void, it is because there was no sacrament at the time. In other words, there was no marriage at all in the eyes of the church.

My understanding agrees with yours.

Likewise, I understand that a priest’s ordination may be found to be null – ie That there was no sacrament at the time. In other words, there was no ordination at all in the eyes of the Church.

Or, it is an invalid marriage due to circumstances determined by the church. My sister received an annulment a couple of years ago and was told there was no marriage had in the eyes fo the church…so there is no change on the soul

Further: I assert that the Church teaches that Ordination imparts a permanent change in the soul of the ordinand. And I assert that marriage does not impart a permanent change in the soul of a spouse.

But: I cannot say: *Marriage is susceptible to being adjudged null. That proves that it imparts no change to the soul. *Because if I could say that, why would the fact that Ordination is susceptible to being adjudged null not similarly “prove” that Ordination does not impart a change in the soul?

See?

tee

 

[Danno2281]

Yes, you are correct, that is what i mean, once the Matrimonial Tribunal of each diocese declared that a marriage was NULL and VOID, meaning there was no “real marriage” that took place during the time of the event within their territory, both man and woman, if so wishes, may contract marriage to another person whom they wishes “to tie the knot with”… but that would only be after the Tribunal had approved the Annulment of Marriage… thank you…

I also wish to point out here, that a man loses his clerical state so to speak, once he decided to leave the ministry… but in cases of necessity he can and is bound to perform functions proper to an ordained minister for the salvation of souls… remember, he is still a priest. With regards to souls of priests who died already, I knew several stories that happened on different time and situation, wherein people saw images, most likely configured with the physical attributes of a dead priest. Perhaps, those souls are asking for our prayers. Let’s pray that may these souls in the mercy of God rest in peace! that’s the only and the best thing that we can do now, pray for them.

I have heard a story of a deceased priest offering the Holy Sacrifice in a church and he communicated (I don’t recall how) that he was obliged to offer the Sacrifice for stipends that he had accepted and for which he had never offered Masses while alive. I heard this from the spiritual director of my high school (a prep seminary). Take it for whatever you think it’s worth. “There are more things in heaven and on earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy, Horatio.” Hamlet