Ghosts

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Please pardon me if I have begun this discussion in the wrong forum, but I couldn’t seem to find one that actually fits.

My question concerns the phenomenon of ghosts. Specifically, does the Church offer any definitive teaching on the subject one way or the other with respect to whether they exist or not, and, if so, what they represent?
 
Please pardon me if I have begun this discussion in the wrong forum, but I couldn’t seem to find one that actually fits.

My question concerns the phenomenon of ghosts. Specifically, does the Church offer any definitive teaching on the subject one way or the other with respect to whether they exist or not, and, if so, what they represent?
There is no definitive teaching on this matter; however, there are 3 possibilities:

— the apparition is an illusion,

—the apparition is a spirit from Hell;

—the apparition is really the dead human being it seems to be, working off his or her Purgatory.

There’s no way of knowing generally which is which, without a great deal of physical, psychological and spiritual investigation.

ICXC NIKA.
 
Hmm. Well, I wonder if the possibilities are limited to those three things, really. I haven’t ever seen a ghost, myself, but I have conversed with very sane, level-headed persons who claim to have had paranormal experiences. And yes, I have watched “Ghost Hunters” and they do produce some interesting visual and audio evidence of strange phenomena.

The third possibility you offer–souls from purgatory–would make sense if the spirits attempted to ask prayers of the people they encounter, but from what I have seen and heard, that just never seems to happen. It seems like nine times out of ten, the ghost is a “lady in white” in Victorian-era clothes who glides down a staircase and says nothing.

A friend of mine claims to have been woken in the night several times to find the apparition of an American Indian at the foot of his bed. Never said anything; just stood there. My friend moved. Then there are the typical “poltergeist” phenomena: slamming doors, lights going on and off by themselves, &c.

I don’t know, it just seems like alot of strange ways for souls in Purgatory to make their tribulations known, or alot of foolishness for an evil spirit to waste its time with.
 
I have first-hand knowledge of this simply because we live in a home that had evidence of “ghosts”. Before becoming Catholic, we had a paranormal team out here and they found exactly what we had been experiencing. After we became Catholic, we discussed this with our priest who then went to the diocese exorcist (I think that’s what he was officially called, forgive me if I’m wrong, it’s been a while) and then came to our home and blessed each room and each member with Holy Water and special prayers. The prayers were for the spirits to go to the place of their judgment. The priest said he had done some special prayers and preparatory work for himself to be protected before he came over. He took this very seriously. It worked too, after 20 years of very frightening, visible and audible happenings, nothing has happened since the Blessing and the whole house feels different too, like a “normal” home.
 
Sandalwood:

Did the priest happen to offer any conjecture as to what he believed the nature of the ghost was?
 
Sandalwood:

Did the priest happen to offer any conjecture as to what he believed the nature of the ghost was?
No. He said several prayers to cover those in purgatory and those that should be in hell, that they would be sent to their final place of judgment. I can’t remember exactly how he worded the prayers. We had 3 different locations in our home that were specifically affected and he prayed in those especially, and then in each room and over each member, even our animals.
 
Dogma notwithstanding, there is no Biblical support for the existence of purgatory. I have examined all the 20-odd passages that are claimed to support the idea and I have found them to be not what they’re claimed to be. I think people misunderstand a great deal of Scripture, especially the parts that they claim in support of such contentious issues as this one.

I was dead once, I was in a dark void with a light in front of me. Some people think it looks like a tunnel, but it’s not a tunnel. The light looked like the dot in the middle of the screen when you turn off an old TV, except the dot didn’t fade out, it remained steady. I had clarity and faculty, I wasn’t unconscious or groggy, I was fully aware and though I was not in my body, I still existed. The light flashed and I opened my eyes and I was back here, on earth, with you losers. Oh, goody. My point is, I was not on fire, not in some place of punishment, I was fine. God is real, and purgatory is not. This is my testimony. Believe me or don’t; your opinions are not my problem.

Yeah I’m harsh sometimes. What do you want, ice cream? Ok, I’ll get you an ice cream…
 
Dogma notwithstanding, there is no Biblical support for the existence of purgatory. I have examined all the 20-odd passages that are claimed to support the idea and I have found them to be not what they’re claimed to be. I think people misunderstand a great deal of Scripture, especially the parts that they claim in support of such contentious issues as this one.

I was dead once, I was in a dark void with a light in front of me. Some people think it looks like a tunnel, but it’s not a tunnel. The light looked like the dot in the middle of the screen when you turn off an old TV, except the dot didn’t fade out, it remained steady. I had clarity and faculty, I wasn’t unconscious or groggy, I was fully aware and though I was not in my body, I still existed. The light flashed and I opened my eyes and I was back here, on earth, with you losers. Oh, goody. My point is, I was not on fire, not in some place of punishment, I was fine. God is real, and purgatory is not. This is my testimony. Believe me or don’t; your opinions are not my problem.

Yeah I’m harsh sometimes. What do you want, ice cream? Ok, I’ll get you an ice cream…
It is possible that your experience does not represent the entire afterlife experience.

Vanilla is the finest of the flavors. 🤷
 
eternalcom posted this on a prayer thread:

Jesus said if we pray this prayer 1,000 souls from purgatory are released: “Eternal Father, I offer Thee the Most Precious Blood of Thy Divine Son, Jesus, in union with the masses said throughout the world today, for all the holy souls in Purgatory, for sinners everywhere, for sinners in the universal church, those in my own home and within my family. Amen.”

I’d like to know where in Scripture this is, if Jesus actually mentions purgatory. My impression from 2 Machabees 12, 39-46 is that prayers for the dead are not for now but for at the resurrection, that they may be either counted worthy of the first resurrection of redemption or at least, if at the judgment, that they may obtain mercy and not be cast into the lake of fire. In the case of those souls which are in hell, which Jesus did mention, prayers would be of no avail except for the purpose of obtaining mercy at the judgment, as I have noted, although it is unlikely they would be deserving as hell is reserved for only the worst offenders. Furthermore, it is made clear that hell is not a permanent state in the following passage:

Apocalypse 20, 11-15
And I saw a great white throne and the One who sat upon it; from His face the earth and heaven fled away, and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. And another scroll was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the scrolls, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hell gave up the dead that were in them, and they were judged each one according to their works. And hell and death were cast into the pool of fire. This is the second death, the pool of fire. And if anyone was not found written into the book of life, he was cast into the pool of fire.

There are other sites online that go into much greater detail and cite other passages from the Bible and also the writings of some of the preeminent Church fathers which make a solid case for dismissal of the dogma of purgatory. I will not post any links here, but you can search for them yourself if you’re interested. They are easy enough to find.

I have always considered myself a Catholic, but I cannot in good conscience endorse these dubious teachings which are unsubstantiated or even contradicted by the Holy Bible, which I consider to be of greater authority than the writings of mere mortals, no matter how high an office they may hold in the Church. For this I may be censured, banned, excommunicated, or attacked by fanatics unwilling to consider that what they’ve been taught is wrong, or by those wicked few who know they’re wrong but wish to silence anyone who poses a threat to their positions of power and prestige. Nevertheless, I feel I owe it to myself, at least, to fight the good fight for truth, its discovery and publication, and to never submit to the intellectual tyranny of anyone. I will leave you with this thought:

Galatians 4, 16
Have I then become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

And by the same token, is someone your friend, do you think, because they flatter you with lies?

It’s not an unreasonable question.
 
Well, deodorant isn’t in the Bible, either, but I still believe in it.

What did the Church ever do before there was a Bible, I wonder? And that’s just before the books were canonized (by the Church) such as we know them today.

What, O what, did Christians ever do without the Bible before the invention of the printing press? Or even after, long before books became widely available or even affordable to most people? I think we’re pretty much looking at the 18th century before we see the Bible in the hands of your ordinary, average Christian.

So for most of the history of Christianity, there really was no Bible, in the sense that we think of it today: a book that just anybody can pick up at Borders for $16.95.

Have I then become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

😉

Just messing with you, Dominion.

Lord knows I don’t have all the answers, but I do think the living Church and it’s mission to teach is more important than the book that that same Church compiled. My two cents, anyhow.

Cheers.
 
Dogma notwithstanding, there is no Biblical support for the existence of purgatory. I have examined all the 20-odd passages that are claimed to support the idea and I have found them to be not what they’re claimed to be. I think people misunderstand a great deal of Scripture, especially the parts that they claim in support of such contentious issues as this one.
Yet the Church, whose job it is to interpret scripture, does find a biblical basis for Purgatory. The existance of Purgatory is not an optional belief for a Catholic, it is part of the Deposit of Faith.

As Catholics we do not believe in individual interpretation of the scriptures.
 
Hi ill post the following based the work of many researchers in the Ghost phenomena.
Ghosts exist. However, these beings are not what people usually think they are. Some think they are spirits of those who died in the past (family, friends etc) or souls of those that are in the purgatory. I however think these things are all demonic. They are demons/fallen angels. They impersonate the dead to fool us. They also make us believe they are aliens (UFOs) when they are not. They usually appear in places where withcraft activities have happened in or any other occult activity. If u would like more info about this click the link below (its a link that takes ya to another ghost topic on this same website). Check my post. Im also opened for questions:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=7101930
 
There is no definitive teaching on this matter; however, there are 3 possibilities:

— the apparition is an illusion,

—the apparition is a spirit from Hell;

—the apparition is really the dead human being it seems to be, working off his or her Purgatory.

There’s no way of knowing generally which is which, without a great deal of physical, psychological and spiritual investigation.

ICXC NIKA.
I think I’ve had an experience of the third viz. somebody working off their purgatory.

I’ve had a fair number of spiritual experiences of one kind or another, but I hadn’t given “ghosts” much thought. But my old Protestant pastor, Rev. Robert Missenden, once said to me in his office, “I think you’ll be doing some cleaning. You won’t like it much, and you won’t be doing it for long, but I think the Lord will just want you to hear about a ghost.”

By the time he said that I knew just how accurate he was, and that if he said something would happen, it usually did. But I still thought it was a bit ridiculous. Now he died in 1992.

In 2006 I was doing a cleaning job, involving split shifts and driving about 600 kms a week. I didn’t like it much and I only did it for about four months. However I was being shown around one old store in a town called Ipswich by the previous cleaner.

Then he suddenly remarked, “This place is haunted.” I said, “What?”. He repeated it and then went on to say a former manager had committed suicide in the 1890’s. Later when I was talking to staff who worked (and who accepted the presence of the ghost), they said it was actually the 1960’s when the manager hanged himself downstairs. He must have worked at it, because they were very low ceilings under the building.

According to the cleaner who told me this, one night he was there all the stock just jumped off a complete set of shelves and landed on the floor. Other times he found he could push a two or three hundred pound buffer by the little finger over a rough floor, as something was pushing it with him. He said he didn’t like being there after dark.

Yet I used to get positive vibes when I was there. One night I was there, after all the doors had been shut, and there were only a couple of managerial staff still there. A bloke walked out from behind the last aisle, smiled at me, and then walked back. I went to find him and couldn’t.

I think my role was to get a mass said for the ghost, the man who had committed suicide. Eventually I rang up the priest at Ipswich and told him the story. I don’t know whether he believed me or not, or whether he thought he had a nut on his hands. What made it more difficult was I had no way of getting the suicide’s name.

Personally I think he was trapped in that store as punishment for committing suicide. He was probably a decent bloke who was not bad enough to send to hell, but who at the same time was unable to go to heaven. He was bored, hence the tricks with the other cleaner.

That was my experience. And as usual, old Rev. Missenden turned out to be accurate in his prediction, strange as it was. It took about 15 years to happen, but it did.
 
Hi ill post the following based the work of many researchers in the Ghost phenomena.
Ghosts exist. However, these beings are not what people usually think they are. Some think they are spirits of those who died in the past (family, friends etc) or souls of those that are in the purgatory. I however think these things are all demonic. They are demons/fallen angels. They impersonate the dead to fool us. They also make us believe they are aliens (UFOs) when they are not. They usually appear in places where withcraft activities have happened in or any other occult activity. If u would like more info about this click the link below (its a link that takes ya to another ghost topic on this same website). Check my post. Im also opened for questions:
I happen to agree with your assessment. Evil spirits may waste time appearing as a ghost/historical person/gremlin/poltergeist etc. However, they have reason to believe that they are not. Remember, evil spirits are also angels (bad as they may be) and exist outside of time by their nature. Therefore, they can wait generations, centuries or millenia for a lie to take hold and prosper. The fact that there are people that claim these apparitions are not demons or people from purgatory, but merely lost ‘souls’ - a concept foriegn to Catholicism - is a way for evil spirits to plant seeds in people to keep their mind away from the Truth and centered squarely on their own shenanigans. They are most certainly capable in detail of appearing as though they are an historical figure or loved one. They are much more intelligent than we are and can fool us into believing almost anything.

I do have problems with the theory of people in Purgatory simply from the fact that it will not enter most people’s minds that they are from Purgatory and/or those people that they appear to do not believe in Purgatory. Why appear to someone if you’re from Purgatory if you know they are not going to pray for you because they don’t understand?

Yet, I am still open to the latter possibility. Moreso, at least, than to the ‘lost souls’ theory.

If you were in Heaven, unless you were going to appear to someone to convert them or encourage deep prayer, there would be no reason to appear here. The souls in Hell are too busy being tormented. If they left Hell to torment living people, that would make them happy, and Hell is not a place where souls’ wishes are fulfilled or they are ‘satisfied’ in any way. So that’s out. The only thing left is Purgatory, which I admit I am open to, but at this point very skeptical for the above reasons. Although I do admit that souls in Purgatory have appeared to very holy Saints, I think I can safely assume that most ghost sightings today do not appear to very holy saintly people.

The fact that a lot of these events are broadcast on TV is one piece of evidence I submit.

I suppose not only the Vatican is open to using the media as an evangelizing tool. 😦
 
They are demons/fallen angels. They impersonate the dead to fool us. They also make us believe they are aliens (UFOs) when they are not. They usually appear in places where withcraft activities have happened in or any other occult activity.
I don’t know about all that. I’m not sold on the idea that all paranormal activity is demonic; that theory seems a bit over the top, to be honest. Screwing around like a practical jokester doesn’t seem to fit either the character or the modus operandi of a demon. How does it further Satan’s agenda for his minions to invade homes across America to rattle pots and pans and to glide down staircases dressed up as Victorian women in white?

I have heard some suggestions from paranormal researchers that a significant percentage of reported hauntings seem to be of a “residual” nature; that is to say they aren’t intelligent in any way (they make no attempt to interact with the living), but recur periodically as if some sort of natural recorder were playing them, over and over again. Some have suggested that this sort of haunt may be the result of a time warp of sorts that science has yet to offer an explanation for.

I certainly believe that demons are active and up to no good and that they cause their own malicious mischief here and there. But I also think that there are other things going on that are of a paranormal nature that are not diabolical in nature or in origin. Ghosts, after all, were reported in ancient times and in ancient cultures by people who didn’t have a belief in Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory, so, if every haunting is merely a demonic plot to cause Catholics to doubt the solidity of Christian doctrine on the afterlife, what on earth were the demons playing at back then?
 
I don’t know about all that. I’m not sold on the idea that all paranormal activity is demonic; that theory seems a bit over the top, to be honest. Screwing around like a practical jokester doesn’t seem to fit either the character or the modus operandi of a demon. How does it further Satan’s agenda for his minions to invade homes across America to rattle pots and pans and to glide down staircases dressed up as Victorian women in white?

I have heard some suggestions from paranormal researchers that a significant percentage of reported hauntings seem to be of a “residual” nature; that is to say they aren’t intelligent in any way (they make no attempt to interact with the living), but recur periodically as if some sort of natural recorder were playing them, over and over again. Some have suggested that this sort of haunt may be the result of a time warp of sorts that science has yet to offer an explanation for.

I certainly believe that demons are active and up to no good and that they cause their own malicious mischief here and there. But I also think that there are other things going on that are of a paranormal nature that are not diabolical in nature or in origin. Ghosts, after all, were reported in ancient times and in ancient cultures by people who didn’t have a belief in Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory, so, if every haunting is merely a demonic plot to cause Catholics to doubt the solidity of Christian doctrine on the afterlife, what on earth were the demons playing at back then?
The mere fact that we are questioning doctrine, trying to figure out if a ghost is really someone from Purgatory or someone from another as yet unknown place means that the devil has already attacked - and won over - a small portion of someone’s faith.

Don’t have time to elaborate, as I have to go to work and am running late… sorry. Will try to see if I can get online tonight after work.
 
There is no definitive teaching on this matter; however, there are 3 possibilities:

— the apparition is an illusion,

—the apparition is a spirit from Hell;

—the apparition is really the dead human being it seems to be, working off his or her Purgatory.

There’s no way of knowing generally which is which, without a great deal of physical, psychological and spiritual investigation.

ICXC NIKA.
I imagine it could also be:
  • People visiting us from heaven, to warn or comfort us.
  • Some form of imprint of the person, more akin to a video recoding than their actual soul
  • Some form of trickster spirit, neither angel nor demon (not sure what rulings the Church have made on this possibility).
God bless
TL
 
I imagine it could also be:
  • People visiting us from heaven, to warn or comfort us.
The problem with this theory is that ghosts are seldom, if ever, “comforting” (more often frightening), nor communicate any useful “warning.” If they are from Heaven, God would not send them in vain.
  • Some form of imprint of the person, more akin to a video recoding than their actual soul
Possible, some sort of a “time-bodyprint” corresponding to a footprint. This would be amenable to studies in human physics.
  • Some form of trickster spirit, neither angel nor demon (not sure what rulings the Church have made on this possibility).
the Church does not allow for the presence of such neutral spirits. All spirits, (including those in our bodies) come from God, and obey or fight HIM. So if it purports to be a human being, and is not, then it is a deception, and would be on the “evil side” of being.
God bless
TL
ICXC NIKA
 
Certainly seems to be an abundant amount of Paranormal served out to society lately.

The experiences I have had I feel were a grace from God. I haven’t seen or experienced anything evil in a supernatural setting.

The Church has it own team that work with demons and it always has. I have listened to Fr Malichi Martin speak on the exorcisms. He stated 85% of the case’s he was involved with were authentic. So I don’t think theres any doubt about good or evil supernatural events.

As far as something inbetween? I wouldn’t rule it out. I just haven’t experienced this. Not something I believe you should seek out through.

The electrical energy caught in a highly magnetic or magnified area is a reality also.

If I myself ran into this? I’d be at the church immediatly. And I highly doubt this is a situation I’d be living with for any amount of time.

So do you think we are just becoming more aware due to technology, or theres an increase in activity?
 
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