Gifts & Fruits of CCR

[RichT]

Anne Carmel:

Please remember your charity. Serious lack of charity was the reason for the topic of CCR to take a little break before. Don’t let these threads get to the point where that would be a necessary step to take again.

Perhaps the people making the uncharitable comments should have been the ones taking a break, not the topic itself. This is a public forum and people should be able to discuss things without being bashed by someone just because they don’t aggree with it. That is a serious problem here on this forum. The fact is that most who post here are conservative traditionalists who think that the church should be this way or that way. That is fine, but to force a topic to take a “little break” is no different than attempting to force an opion or agenda on someone, not much different than those who choose to bash others simpy because they don’t agree with the topic. Making the topic take a “litte break” is equaly uncharitable. That doesn’t do anything to hold those accountable for their actions. It only fuels the fire as the decision to make something take a “little break” is very one-sided.

 

[gnome]

was it me who made uncharitable comments in this thread?

 

[robertaf]

Greetings Church

I have been taking a break from these forums, simply for this very reason.
I checked in tonight for the first time in awhile. I saw that Misty was trying, still again to have nice Catholic Charismatic discussion.
The same thing happens over and over again.

I have to agree with Rich. It is obvious that the Charismatic threads are watched closely.

I also wonder why it is that the “thread” (or the Charismatics) take the “rest” when it is those opposing this valid renewal movement that come in, begin arguments and then go their merry way.

This does not seem fair to me.

But then, I am also told it is not up for discussion in open forum.

So be it.

 

[Absalom]

It seems to me that the main reason Catholics are hesitant to embrace the CCR is that it looks, sounds, and tastes Protestant (not that I think it’s a bad thing, myself, but I have to admit that hearing a Catholic deacon pray in tongues for me was a very odd experience). It’s something that will take some getting used to for all of us.

As I mentioned earlier, I am interested in learning more about the CCR, but I’m still slightly skeptical about a couple of things at this point (mostly speaking/praying in tongues). All I can say about it at this point is that what Paul says about tongues is not exactly clear cut, and I don’t think that anyone on either side of the debate has all of the evidence on their side. For example, if you look at 1 Corinthians 14:22-25, Paul seems to say one thing about tongues, and then immediately turn around and say the exact opposite. It’s no wonder we can’t come to a consensus about what the nature of tongues really is.

Now come on - kiss and make up, folks!

Cheers!

 

[robertaf]

Absalom!:

…
As I mentioned earlier, I am interested in learning more about the CCR, but I’m still slightly skeptical about a couple of things at this point (mostly speaking/praying in tongues). All I can say about it at this point is that what Paul says about tongues is not exactly clear cut, and I don’t think that anyone on either side of the debate has all of the evidence on their side. For example, if you look at 1 Corinthians 14:22-25, Paul seems to say one thing about tongues, and then immediately turn around and say the exact opposite. It’s no wonder we can’t come to a consensus about what the nature of tongues really is.

Now come on - kiss and make up, folks!

Cheers!

Hi,
Thanks for your nice post.
I have been in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal for 35 years. Posts like yours are so very common.
For some reason, folks outside the Renewal always focus on that one BIG SCARY gift, tongues. I cannot figure out why this is the big stumbling block, when Charismatics, as a whole, feel pretty much like St. Paul did, this is the least of the gifts. It gets very little attention from most Charismatics, and we tend to obey Paul and strive for the GREATEST GIFT. We all know that the GREATEST GIFT IS LOVE. We do not strive for the gift of tongues. Many of us receive it, at least the gift of Prayer Tongues, that is very common, easily received and frankly do not seem to be a big deal with most of us. I am not trying to ungrateful for the gift, just being completely honest. I love praying in tongues but it doesn’t seem like a very big deal. The Gift of LOVE is a very big deal. So is the Gift of Faith. Think of all the folks who cannot seem to believe. Many Catholics do not believe in the Real Presence. The gift of Faith is profound.
The gift of Healing is a lovely gift as is the gift of Wisdom. We are told to STRIVE for the gift of Prophesy.
Why all the focus on the least of the gifts???
This minor gift has had these discussions killed more than any one thing. Is this why St Paul asked us not to focus on this one? Maybe it is time we listen to him. smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_67.gif

 

[Absalom]

I think it’s mainly because, at least as I’ve experienced charismatic Christians (mostly Prots.), tongues is strongly emphasized. In fact, I am marrying a pentecostal (who is well on her way to conversion), and as I’ve gotten to know people from her church, the first question that they ask when they are sizing up another church is, “Do they speak in tongues?” It’s like it’s a prerequisite for being a true Christian for some of them.

Personally, I think tongues is simply a fascinating subject. I’m the type of person that I want to know. One thing I love about being Catholic is that you don’t have to look far to find definite answers. Except, it seems, when you’re asking about “speaking/praying in tongues.” And that drives me nuts. Paul also drives me nuts on the subject of tongues. I can’t help it - I just want to know, and Paul is all over the place when talking about spiritual gifts.

Personally, I applaud charismatics. I’ve seen some people that get into that sort of thing because they’re sensationalist and emotional, but in general, I see charismatics (and pentecostals) as passionate folks, and there’s nothing more worth getting passionate about than God.

 

[gnome]

Absalom!:

As I mentioned earlier, I am interested in learning more about the CCR, but I’m still slightly skeptical about a couple of things at this point (mostly speaking/praying in tongues). All I can say about it at this point is that what Paul says about tongues is not exactly clear cut, and I don’t think that anyone on either side of the debate has all of the evidence on their side. For example, if you look at 1 Corinthians 14:22-25, Paul seems to say one thing about tongues, and then immediately turn around and say the exact opposite. It’s no wonder we can’t come to a consensus about what the nature of tongues really is.

Now come on - kiss and make up, folks!

Cheers!

You can take a look at the 1 Corinth 14 Footnotes from USCCB website
(usccb.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians14.htm)
for a good, simple explanation==> “Paul concludes from Isaiah that tongues are a sign not for those who believe, i.e., not a mark of God’s pleasure for those who listen to him but a mark of his displeasure with those in the community who are faithless”

===
7 [20-22] The Corinthians pride themselves on tongues as a sign of God’s favor, a means of direct communication with him (2.28). To challenge them to a more mature appraisal, Paul draws from scripture a less flattering explanation of what speaking in tongues may signify. Isaiah threatened the people that if they failed to listen to their prophets, the Lord would speak to them (in punishment) through the lips of Assyrian conquerors (Isaiah 28:11-12). Paul compresses Isaiah’s text and makes God address his people directly. Equating tongues with foreign languages (cf 1 Cor 14:10-11), Paul concludes from Isaiah that tongues are a sign not for those who believe, i.e., not a mark of God’s pleasure for those who listen to him but a mark of his displeasure with those in the community who are faithless, who have not heeded the message that he has sent through the prophets.

8 [23-25] Paul projects the possible missionary effect of two hypothetical liturgical experiences, one consisting wholly of tongues, the other entirely of prophecy. Uninstructed (idiotai): the term may simply mean people who do not speak or understand tongues, as in 1 Cor 14:16, where it seems to designate Christians. But coupled with the term “unbelievers” it may be another way of designating those who have not been initiated into the community of faith; some believe it denotes a special class of non-Christians who are close to the community, such as catechumens. Unbelievers (apistoi): he has shifted from the inner-community perspective of 1 Cor 14:22; the term here designates non-Christians (cf 1 Cor 6:6; 7:15; 10:27).

 

[Absalom]

Thanks, Gnome. I’ll definitely check out the site.

 

[robertaf]

Absalom!:

…Personally, I think tongues is simply a fascinating subject. I’m the type of person that I want to know. One thing I love about being Catholic is that you don’t have to look far to find definite answers. Except, it seems, when you’re asking about “speaking/praying in tongues.” And that drives me nuts. Paul also drives me nuts on the subject of tongues. I can’t help it - I just want to know, and Paul is all over the place when talking about spiritual gifts.

Personally, I applaud charismatics. I’ve seen some people that get into that sort of thing because they’re sensationalist and emotional, but in general, I see charismatics (and pentecostals) as passionate folks, and there’s nothing more worth getting passionate about than God.

I love your posts! You are right about Paul. He sometimes drives me nutz too. Can you imagine what it was like to be with him, day in day out??? Yikes.
I gotta tell you, we Charismatics do tend to be emotional. I am a wife of 50 years, a mom of two sons, the mom of the most sensational daughter in-law and a grandma. I love my family so deeply, and, yes, EMOTIONALLY! How could I ever love without my emotions being involved, connected and fully workable??? Can you love without experiencing emotions, and yes,as you say, Passion? It is our human nature and I believe God’s nature.
We ADORE our God in the Holy Trinity. Hey, my emotions are working full force. Before I experienced “Heart Conversion”, I cannot say that was truly the case. I am sure I loved God and my fellow Catholics. Not the same way. Not at all the same way. I think I loved them in my head, not fully in my heart and spirit. I know the difference.
What is it about EMOTIONS that trouble folks where our Faith is concerned? The same thing that troubles them about tongues?
You say that Protestant Pentecostals focus heavily on tongues.
Well, we are not Protestant Pentecostals. We are Catholic Charismatics. If we focus heavily, NO, almost fully on anything, it is Jesus in the Holy Eucharist. SUPRISE! We are very different from our Protestant brothers and sisters that way. We are first Catholic. If the Catholic Charismatic Renewal does not lead us to the Sacraments and obedience to Holy Mother Church and the Holy Father, it is not genuine.
I realize you choose to focus on tongues, but I hope my explaination tells you why we tend not to do that.
Love and Blessings,

 

[Mysty101]

Hi Roberta,

Great to see you here!!!

 

[Mysty101]

Absalom!:

And that drives me nuts. Paul also drives me nuts on the subject of tongues. I can’t help it - I just want to know, and Paul is all over the place when talking about spiritual gifts.

Remember Paul had to live with those Corinthians:bigyikes: And it was they whom he was addressing in 1 Cor (hense the title).
If we are quoting footnotes, we need the first, which does indeed set the tone

[1-5] 1 Cor 14:1b returns to the thought of 1 Cor 12:31a and reveals Paul’s primary concern. The series of contrasts in 1 Cor 14:2-5 discloses the problem at Corinth: a disproportionate interest in tongues, with a corresponding failure to appreciate the worth of prophecy. Paul attempts to clarify the relative values of those gifts by indicating the kind of communication achieved in each and the kind of effect each produces

As Berta said, those in CCR, focus more on the praise and prayers for healing, than the words used. The gifts are more the simple gifts–prayer tongue, and simple prophecy, which definitely are used for the edification of the Community. We do encourage a prayer tongue, because it is a wonderful release gift (as are laughter and tears), and it is very beneficial to the individual as well as the group. The variety of tongues rises to heaven, and I can “see” Jesus smile.

And if we are going to quote Paul how about my favorite of all scriptures

12 At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.

which prefaces

13

5 So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

 

[Absalom]

Mysty101 -

Hey, I don’t think emotions are bad. Fire for God is great, and I wish I had more of it all the time. I was just talking about the kind of people who are into exciting movements (such as CCR or pentecostalism) for the emotional hight that comes with them - rather than to enter a closer relationship with God.

I suppose that anything good, when fruitless, can be bad (including CCR and traditionalism).

 

[Mysty101]

Absalom!:

Mysty101 -

Hey, I don’t think emotions are bad. Fire for God is great, and I wish I had more of it all the time. I was just talking about the kind of people who are into exciting movements (such as CCR or pentecostalism) for the emotional hight that comes with them - rather than to enter a closer relationship with God.

I suppose that anything good, when fruitless, can be bad (including CCR and traditionalism).

Absolutely–I did undersand you to be saying this. I responded to your comments, but also for any lukers.

My main point is to get detractors (others-definitely not you) to let go of the private interpration of Paul’s instructions to the Corinthians. Of course we must heed the cautions, but this does not indicate that we are not to pray in tongues.

I do not comment much on Speaking in tongues, since I am not familiar with that aspect of tongues.

Hear’s a little something from “scriptures for speaking in tongues”

.—^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Did you know that tongues is the only gift "YOU " can turn on and off at will. You can not turn on a miracle, you have to wait on God. you can not turn on discernment. again you must wait on God. you can not turn on any of the supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit, --except tongues. You can speak in tongues any time you choose, if your baptised in the spirit, and you can stop speaking in tongues when you want also. God put a tremendous trust on you, when he gave you His Own Holy Spirit, for you to use at will. Again you cant turn on any other gift, only this one its your own personal powerful gift from Father God to you. -----Do not be decieved by satan, you have been given an awesome gift, use it to grow more spiritually and more stronger in power, for the GLORY OF GOD and for the benefit of others. =====

 

[Joysong]

Hi SuZ,

My main point is to get detractors (others-definitely not you) to let go of the private interpration of Paul’s instructions to the Corinthians.

You will never get them to see your point through exegesis, Church authority, Papal encyclicals, or any such worthy method. Dissenters such as you encounter on these types of threads have a mind-set that is unmoveable, I’m afraid.

Meanwhile, the peace of many becomes disturbed while attempting futilely again and again to convince the unconvinceable ones. http://forum.catholic.com/images/smilies/ani/ani_banghead3.gif They delight in opportunities such as this to hopefully reclaim to their way of thinking, all those who are on the fence, and you provide them with the fuel they desire. I doubt these kinds of threads will ever be free of attacks of this sort, and the moderators are well aware of it, with watchful eyes to keep the forum in charitable straights.

Peace,

Carole

 

[gnome]

Mysty101:

Hear’s a little something from “scriptures for speaking in tongues”

.—^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
you can not turn on discernment. again you must wait on God. you can not turn on any of the supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit, --except tongues.

Again you cant turn on any other gift, only this one its your own personal powerful gift from Father God to you. -----

This is the kind of errors I continue to hear from charismatics, online and offline.

 

[springbreeze]

Dear friends

Can someone tell me what Holy Laughter is?

I have laughed in prayer because of the joy of God and love for God and a surge of God’s consolation and love in my heart, is that something similar?

Thank you for any replies

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[gnome]

Absalom!:

Mysty101 -

Hey, I don’t think emotions are bad. Fire for God is great, and I wish I had more of it all the time. I was just talking about the kind of people who are into exciting movements (such as CCR or pentecostalism) for the emotional hight that comes with them - rather than to enter a closer relationship with God.

I suppose that anything good, when fruitless, can be bad (including CCR and traditionalism).

Thanks Absalom, I had similar experience last year.
While I read about Pope JPII calling for discernment from the Pastors, but what I had seen, from “authentic” CCR groups, is subjective, emotion oriented, and self-assured belief that God talks directly to them without the need for any authority outside of self.

 

[gnome]

springbreeze:

Dear friends

Can someone tell me what Holy Laughter is?

I have laughed in prayer because of the joy of God and love for God and a surge of God’s consolation and love in my heart, is that something similar?

Thank you for any replies

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

Teresa,
I don’t think yours is Holy Laughter

ewtn.com/expert/answers/marian_dev.htm
“Those participating in this movement, as far as my research and that of others engaged in studying it is concerned, are people who have received the anointing and make up the on-going Pentecostal Revival. Sometimes called the Holy Laughter movement, the Toronto Blessing, the Father’s Blessing, the Pensacola Revival and other names, it’s U.S. origins can be traced to South African minister Rodney Howard-Browne. The anointing is given by touch, by throwing it at people and, according to their own reports on Protestant networks, even by watching it on TV or on a video. Among its fruits is the phenomenon known as Holy Laughter, but also oinking (like a pig), barking (like a dog), slithering (like a snake), holy glue (inability to be moved), electrical circuitry disturbances and more. An emerging phenomenon is the fanatically zeal for converting Catholics and for ending the darkness of “Mary” worship.”

ewtn.com/expert/answers/marian_dev.htm

 

[Mysty101]

gnome:

Teresa,
I don’t think yours is Holy Laughter

ewtn.com/expert/answers/marian_dev.htm
“Those participating in this movement, as far as my research and that of others engaged in studying it is concerned, are people who have received the anointing and make up the on-going Pentecostal Revival. Sometimes called the Holy Laughter movement, the Toronto Blessing, the Father’s Blessing, the Pensacola Revival and other names, it’s U.S. origins can be traced to South African minister Rodney Howard-Browne. The anointing is given by touch, by throwing it at people and, according to their own reports on Protestant networks, even by watching it on TV or on a video. Among its fruits is the phenomenon known as Holy Laughter, but also oinking (like a pig), barking (like a dog), slithering (like a snake), holy glue (inability to be moved), electrical circuitry disturbances and more. An emerging phenomenon is the fanatically zeal for converting Catholics and for ending the darkness of “Mary” worship.”

ewtn.com/expert/answers/marian_dev.htm

Catholic revival is not the Toronto Blessing. We are discussing Catholic worship, not protestant

Msgr Vincent Walsh —
**

N

ot the Toronto Blessing

At this point, I want to say clearly that I am not discussing the Toronto Blessing. Rather I am defending and explaining one phenomenon, the gift of Holy Laughter. Many other manifestations that are part of the Toronto Blessing, I have not experienced and therefore am not qualified to explain.
**

 

[RichT]

robertaf:

I love your posts! You are right about Paul. He sometimes drives me nutz too. Can you imagine what it was like to be with him, day in day out??? Yikes.
I gotta tell you, we Charismatics do tend to be emotional. I am a wife of 50 years, a mom of two sons, the mom of the most sensational daughter in-law and a grandma. I love my family so deeply, and, yes, EMOTIONALLY! How could I ever love without my emotions being involved, connected and fully workable??? Can you love without experiencing emotions, and yes,as you say, Passion? It is our human nature and I believe God’s nature.
We ADORE our God in the Holy Trinity. Hey, my emotions are working full force. Before I experienced “Heart Conversion”, I cannot say that was truly the case. I am sure I loved God and my fellow Catholics. Not the same way. Not at all the same way. I think I loved them in my head, not fully in my heart and spirit. I know the difference.
What is it about EMOTIONS that trouble folks where our Faith is concerned? The same thing that troubles them about tongues?
You say that Protestant Pentecostals focus heavily on tongues.
Well, we are not Protestant Pentecostals. We are Catholic Charismatics. If we focus heavily, NO, almost fully on anything, it is Jesus in the Holy Eucharist. SUPRISE! We are very different from our Protestant brothers and sisters that way. We are first Catholic. If the Catholic Charismatic Renewal does not lead us to the Sacraments and obedience to Holy Mother Church and the Holy Father, it is not genuine.
I realize you choose to focus on tongues, but I hope my explaination tells you why we tend not to do that.
Love and Blessings,

Great post Roberta! I too often wonder why so many have an issue with emotion. I often find myself imagining what it must have been like for the Blessed Virgin and John to be at the foot of the cross. I wonder if they stood there emotionless. For some reason, I doubt it. It’s almost as if we are supposed to be robots who go through the motions. I wonder sometimes if something is wrong with me when tears start to flow down my cheeks during the consecration at mass, or why am I crying while standing in line to venerate the Cross on Good Friday. As far as I am concerned it is impossible to seperate emotion from Christianity.

Now, I do understand the concern with someone who is always looking for an emotional experience. The person who figures God just isn’t listening if the emotions don’t come. Too me that is a person who has an inmature faith, or even a lack of faith. Or perhaps, a lack of good catachesis. I personally go through dry periods just like everyone else. But, I still go to mass on Sundays, I still serve communion to the sick at the hospital, and I still pray daily. Most of all, I still love Jesus with every bit of my heart. I find that the reason for dry spells for me is typically because I am distracted in my life, and like many others I am not allowing God to talk to me. This is a normal part of our journey, and it is faith that keeps us going. A couple of weeks ago, I woke up on a Saturday and fought the urge to stay in bed. I had committed myself to joining a group to pray the Rosary outside of a Planned Parenthood, and sleeping in just sounded better. Well, I went anyway. Boy, talk about hearing God! You see, I weathered the dry spell, and through faith, kept on going. God rewarded me with an amazing and emotional experience and a huge call to continue in this ministry.

As I said, you simply can’t seperate emotion from your relationship with Christ!