Gilgamesh Poem and Genesis

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Hi there,
I was wondering if anyone would have a point of view on the similarities of the Gilgamesh poem and Genesis. My doubt or question is, why is it that the poem, which is older than the written texts of the Old Testament, has so much in common with Genesis and do you think that Genesis derived from this poem? If so, would you consider that, because of the fact that the Gilgamesh Poem is older, is it more accurate than Genesis? If so, it has quite some implications about God…

Thanks you, God Bless!
 
The oldest datable version on Genesis, or its existence as part of an oral tradition, may go back farther then the oldest dated edition currently on hand, and possibly as far back as Gil. Recall that Abraham moved into the area that is today Israel from what is today Iraq. Recall how much the unknown-until-discovered Qumran texts very much threw a wrench into the calculations of Biblical scholars that reverberates to this day.

I am not asserting any claim here. The current dating puts Gil ahead of Gen but there is a gap in the dating timeline for the first part of Gen - when it was first recorded as opposed to when it was first operative. It is not impossible that they come from a common set of beliefs and practices associated with that region. The earliest biblical accounts in Gen speaks to existing practices - Abraham meets the High Priest Melchizedek in Salam, for example.

When texts and fragments first started being found, after “decrypting” cuneiform etc, the findings first lead people to make bold claims of variant and conflicting timelines to the Old Testament. Over time, however, as more fragments and texts were revealed, and as the research began to normalize, what has come to be realized is how historically accurate has been the Old Testament scriptures.
 
There are various stories that have similarities to the Gilgamesh Poem and ones found within Genesis. This isn’t really material worth instill doubt within your head.

Yes there are similarities to the stories but it isn’t a matter of who or which came first. The more important fact is that many stories share so many amazing similarities to the canon of our Lord that I would find this to back up the authenticity of Genesis accounts.

And even if those texts are older than Genesis that means that people back in those days really did experience the flash flood, etc.

What specifically is bothering you about supposedly earlier creation myths?
 
There have been some very insightful articles published in this topic. To sum it up, the evidence suggests that they both refer to the same event. However, while Gilgamesh may be an older WRITING, the Genesis story seems to preserve the original events more accurately.

For instance, the dimensions given for the boat given in Gilgamesh are simply implausible–that is, if you were to build a boat according to such a plan, it wouldn’t work. The boat described in Genesis, however, holds up–no small feat for a book written by a fairly nautically unsophisticated people.

Several other elements of the Gilgamesh story have an air of legend to them, i.e. comic/silly characters and events. So while Gilgamesh may have gotten written first, Genesis is beyond doubt the original version; it was just preserved through oral tradition.
 
The oldest datable version on Genesis, or its existence as part of an oral tradition, may go back farther then the oldest dated and possibly as far back as Gil. Recall that Abraham moved into the area that is today Israel from what is today Iraq.

I am not asserting any claim here. The current dating puts Gil ahead of Gen but there is a gap in the dating timeline for the first part of Gen - when it was first recorded as opposed to when it was first operative. It is not impossible that they come from a common set of beliefs and practices associated with that region. The earliest biblical accounts in Gen speaks to existing practices - Abraham meets the High Priest Melchizedek in Salam, for example.
Interesting.

Another comparison might be the way the Church saw prophecies of Christ in some of the poems of the Sibyls. Certainly the Sibyls were in no wise aware of Christianity, and we know virtually nothing of what source or sources they may have been drawing from, though supposedly their prophecies were spontaneous.

John 1:[9] That was the true light, which enlighteneth every man that cometh into this world.

I’m sure there is plenty of Catholic and non-Catholic scholarship on this issue, perhaps a lot of it even available online. It may be worth researching if you’re really interested in the subject.
 
Hi there,
I was wondering if anyone would have a point of view on the similarities of the Gilgamesh poem and Genesis. My doubt or question is, why is it that the poem, which is older than the written texts of the Old Testament, has so much in common with Genesis and do you think that Genesis derived from this poem? If so, would you consider that, because of the fact that the Gilgamesh Poem is older, is it more accurate than Genesis? If so, it has quite some implications about God…

Thanks you, God Bless!
Possible explanations-

-Genesis is based on the poem
-The poem is based on Genesis
-Both are based on a yet discovered earlier work by a yet discovered culture

All the poem can really tell us for sure is that some sort of connection (could be direct or indirect) existed between the two groups and that the poem was written as early as (insert estimated date of the written poem).
 
To expand on my previous point, here’s a comparison of the two different “arks” by Jonathan Sarfati (though a YEC scientist, he’s no idiot and his math is solid):
The Ark was built to be tremendously stable. God told Noah to make it 300x50x30 cubits (Genesis 6:15) which is about 140x23x13.5 metres or 459x75x44 feet, so its volume was 43,500 m3 (cubic metres) or 1.54 million cubic feet. This is just right to keep the boat from capsizing and to smooth the ride. There are three main types of rotation in ships (and planes), about three perpendicular axes:
Code:
Yawing, rotation about a vertical axis, i.e. the bow and stern move alternately left to right.
Code:
Pitching, rotation about a lateral axis, an imaginary line left to right, i.e. the bow and stern move alternately up and down.
Code:
Rolling (or heeling), rotating about the longitudinal axis, an imaginary line from bow to stern, tending to tip the boat on its side.
Yawing is not dangerous, in that it won’t capsize a boat, but it would make the ride uncomfortable. Pitching is also an unlikely way to capsize a boat. In any case, the enormous length of the boat would make it align parallel to the wave direction, so these disturbances would be minimal.
Rolling is by far the greatest danger, and the Ark solves that by being much wider than it is high. It would be almost impossible to tip over—even if the Ark were somehow tipped over 60°, it could still right itself, as shown in the diagram (above).
But it would be almost impossible to tip the Ark over even a fraction of this. David Collins, who worked as a naval architect, showed that even a 210-knot wind (three times hurricane force) could not overcome the Ark’s righting moment, which would have stopped the Ark tilting much beyond 3°.13
Furthermore, Korean naval architects have confirmed that a barge with the Ark’s dimensions would have optimal stability. They concluded that if the wood were only 30 cm thick, it could have navigated sea conditions with waves higher than 30 m.14 Compare this with a tsunami (‘tidal wave’), which is typically only about 10 m high. Note also that there is even less danger from tsunamis, because they are dangerous only near the shore—out at sea, they are hardly noticeable.
The Ark
Dr Werner Gitt showed that the Ark had ideal dimensions to optimize both stability and economy of material—see his DVD from the 2004 Supercamp, How Well Designed was Noah’s Ark.
**
Contrast that with Utnapishtim’s ark—this was a huge cube! It is harder to think of a more ridiculous design for a ship—it would roll over in all directions at even the slightest disturbance. However, the story is easy to explain if they distorted Genesis, and found that one dimension is easier to remember than three, ‘its dimensions must measure equal to each other’, and it seems a much nicer shape. The pagan human authors didn’t realize why the real Ark’s dimensions had to be what they were. But the reverse is inconceivable: that Jewish scribes, hardly known for naval architectural skills, took the mythical cubic Ark and turned it into the most stable wooden vessel possible!**
 
The first several chapters of Genesis are not considered to be historical accounts. Rather, they teach some truths (differentiate from facts) about the whole of prehistoric humanity.

If the Flood is an actual historical event, it is possible that the Gilgamesh story is closer to the actual events. However, since it is poetic in nature, I would suspect that there would be some modification to make the poetry work, however.

The account in Genesis, as it is currently, is considered the **Inspired **word of God. Anything the Gilgamesh poem might have said spiritually is not, regardless of its particular historicity.
 
I find it interesting that almost EVERY culture has some sort of story about a great flood.
This is completely personal opinion and might very wrong or baseless, but I always thought of that as sort of an indicator that a flood actually happened (supported by some geological evidence, by the way). I’m not sure that there were literally two of each animal, but I do think there was a great flood. That would have been a really big deal, so of COURSE people would talk about it in oral tradition! And as groups separated and cultures developed, the tradition changed a bit (as oral ones are wont to do). But only the account found in Genesis is divinely inspired (does not mean 100% factual, just true)

By the way, the Church agrees. The paragraph below is an interpretation that’s completely in line with Catholic beliefs:
The story of Noah’s Ark, Genesis chapters 5 through 9, recounts a devastating flood that destroyed the world and all living creatures except for a just man named Noah, his family, and the pairs of living creatures that he brought on board with him before the rain fell for 40 days and 40 nights. Interestingly enough, there are a number of epic stories of a great flood that can be found in various cultures around the world. No doubt, the story of Noah is based on a factual event since archaeologists have found evidence of great floods that took place during biblical times. This does not mean, however that every detail of the story of Noah’s Ark is factual. We have no reason NOT to believe that a just man named Noah saved his family and many living creatures from a flood that devastated the known world at that time. However, it is hardly conceivable that a simple man like Noah could build an ark of such huge proportions and then gather two of every known living creature – one male and one female – and house them safely within it and feed them and dispose of their waste over a period of 40 days. That’s quite a zoological fete! The less-than-factual character of this story, however, in no way diminishes the truth and sacredness of its message. At times, biblical authors, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, used figurative language to communicate God’s truth. It is indeed possible for something to be truthful but not necessarily factual. When Scripture says that “God is my rock,” (Psalm 18:2) we are not to believe that God is literally a rock. The image, while not intended to be literal, expresses a truth about God using figurative language – like a rock, God is strong, steadfast, solid, and can be leaned on! Likewise, the story of Noah’s Ark employs a great deal of figurative language to express an absolute truth about God and our relationship with him: when we sin, it is as if we are drowning, however, God will spare us if we live justly as Noah did.
 
The first several chapters of Genesis are not considered to be historical accounts. Rather, they teach some truths (differentiate from facts) about the whole of prehistoric humanity.
Actually, it is the first three, not several, chapters of Genesis which contain basic Catholic doctrines including the mission of Jesus Christ. Catholic doctrines are not based on some truths; they are based on Divine Revelation concerning real events at the dawn of human history.😃
 
Hi there,
I was wondering if anyone would have a point of view on the similarities of the Gilgamesh poem and Genesis. My doubt or question is, why is it that the poem, which is older than the written texts of the Old Testament, has so much in common with Genesis and do you think that Genesis derived from this poem? If so, would you consider that, because of the fact that the Gilgamesh Poem is older, is it more accurate than Genesis? If so, it has quite some implications about God…

Thanks you, God Bless!
Simple observation.

Adam and Eve had many children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren. Some migrated. Some kept the basic teachings of Adam; some did not.
 
Actually, it is the first three, not several, chapters of Genesis which contain basic Catholic doctrines including the mission of Jesus Christ. Catholic doctrines are not based on some truths; they are based on Divine Revelation concerning real events at the dawn of human history.😃
I was not discussing doctrine per se (I don’t see that as central to the conversation even though the OP implies it may have consequences) but the accounts that are written in Gen 1:1 to 11:9.

The introduction to Genesis hosted on the USCCB is typical of modern scholarship when it describes the first eleven chapters:
How should modern readers interpret the creation-flood story in Gn 2–11? The stories are neither history nor myth. “Myth” is an unsuitable term, for it has several different meanings and connotes untruth in popular English. “History” is equally misleading, for it suggests that the events actually took place. The best term is creation-flood story. Ancient Near Eastern thinkers did not have our methods of exploring serious questions. Instead, they used narratives for issues that we would call philosophical and theological. They added and subtracted narrative details and varied the plot as they sought meaning in the ancient stories. Their stories reveal a privileged time, when divine decisions were made that determined the future of the human race. The origin of something was thought to explain its present meaning, e.g., how God acts with justice and generosity, why human beings are rebellious, the nature of sexual attraction and marriage, why there are many peoples and languages. Though the stories may initially strike us as primitive and naive, they are in fact told with skill, compression, and subtlety. They provide profound answers to perennial questions about God and human beings.
 
Not for nutting, but …

The NAB has been under intense criticism for its over-preference for the historical critical method that is reflected not just in the translation choices but in the annotations.
 
I was wondering if anyone would have a point of view on the similarities of the Gilgamesh poem and Genesis. My doubt or question is, why is it that the poem, which is older than the written texts of the Old Testament, has so much in common with Genesis and do you think that Genesis derived from this poem? If so, would you consider that, because of the fact that the Gilgamesh Poem is older, is it more accurate than Genesis? If so, it has quite some implications about God…
Perhaps if one is considering similarities, perhaps one might also consider how Genesis is different. And I don’t mean details like the dimensions of the boat, or how many days it rains. Does Genesis tell us anything about God that is noticeably different from what you would take away from Gilgamesh.

Particularly if Gilgamesh is believed to be older, and versions of this story were likely to have been in circulation and widely known in the Middle East at the time Genesis was written. One way for the Israelites to differentiate themselves and their God would be to tell stories that had basis in things widely known in the region, but yet were different.
 
Thank you so much for your replies. I particularly found much use in the explanation of Genesis and Gilgamesh deriving both from an oral tradition and that even if Gilgamesh should have been written first, it doesn’t mean it was closer to the historical facts…

God Bless you all!👍
 
The Sumerian King List, which is separate from the Epic of Gilgamesh, has been claimed to have some correspondance to Genesis. The King List includes early kings that had extremely long reigns (thousands of years) and a flood that swept over and ushered in an era of progressively shorter reigns. There’s a possibility that the Sumerian King List is based on the same ancient source as Genesis or based on shared oral memories of actual history.

Remember that accounts don’t have to match 100% to be considered to have a historical basis. It’s possible that Sumerian accounts were corrupted through errors or intentional modifications but that they are fundamentally based on true history.
 
From the Catholic Answers Library:

"Real History

"The argument is that all of this is real history, it is simply ordered topically rather than chronologically, and the ancient audience of Genesis, it is argued, would have understood it as such.

"Even if Genesis 1 records God’s work in a topical fashion, it still records God’s work—things God really did.

"The Catechism explains that “Scripture presents the work of the Creator symbolically as a succession of six days of divine ‘work,’ concluded by the ‘rest’ of the seventh day” (CCC 337), but “nothing exists that does not owe its existence to God the Creator. The world began when God’s word drew it out of nothingness; all existent beings, all of nature, and all human history is rooted in this primordial event, the very genesis by which the world was constituted and time begun” (CCC 338).

"It is impossible to dismiss the events of Genesis 1 as a mere legend. They are accounts of real history, even if they are told in a style of historical writing that Westerners do not typically use.

"Adam and Eve: Real People

"It is equally impermissible to dismiss the story of Adam and Eve and the fall (Gen. 2–3) as a fiction. A question often raised in this context is whether the human race descended from an original pair of two human beings (a teaching known as monogenism) or a pool of early human couples (a teaching known as polygenism).

"In this regard, Pope Pius XII stated: “When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains either that after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parents of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now, it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the teaching authority of the Church proposed with regard to original sin which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam in which through generation is passed onto all and is in everyone as his own” (Humani Generis 37).

“The story of the creation and fall of man is a true one, even if not written entirely according to modern literary techniques. The Catechism states, “The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents” (CCC 390).”

Peace,
Ed
 
Let’s look at a couple of the Giglamesh vs Bible points:
  1. Size of ark
Bible - 450x75x45
Gig - 200x200x200 - ( a cube? probably not seaworthy)
  1. How did deity react to flood?
Bible - God is in control
Gig - gods ran away from waters
  1. How long did it rain?
Bible - 40 days
Gig - 7 days
  1. What was the roof made from?
Bible - wood
Gig - slate
  1. Who made the decision to flood?
Bible - God
Gig council of gods
  1. What happened after the flood?
Bible - God promised to destroy humanity by a flood ever again
Gig - gods quarrel with each other, god Ea lies to Enlil. Utnapishtim and wife given immortality like the gods

Bible - God tells Noah and his family to procreate
Gig - Ea and Mami created 14 human beings to procreate
  1. What was the reason for the flood?
Bible - people were wicked
Gig - people were nosiy

Bible - God is sorry He made men because of their wickedness
Gig - gods could not sleep
  1. When told about impending flood
Bible - Noah warned his neighbors
Gig - Told by Ea to lie to neighbors so that they would help build the ark

How was the ark launched?

Bible - by flood
Gig - pushed to the river

How long did flood last?

Bible - 370 days
Gig - 14 days

Giglamesh is a corruption of the Hebrew account.
 
I was not discussing doctrine per se (I don’t see that as central to the conversation even though the OP implies it may have consequences) but the accounts that are written in Gen 1:1 to 11:9.

The introduction to Genesis hosted on the USCCB is typical of modern scholarship when it describes the first eleven chapters:
Sigh.
The USCCB’s introduction is not binding; without a papal ratification it could come from any secretary hired by a bishop to add something to their web page…

You are correct in avoiding a strictly literal historical reading of Genesis; but I would caution you that “facts” vs. “truth”. isn’t going to clearly demark the issue.

The book of Genesis is one of several which is called “LAW” (Torah).
Much of Genesis is not focused on history in the sense of a sequence of events; but rather upon legal decisions which have an historical stare decisis.

Differences in stories found in Genesis and Gilgamesh, then, also reflect that different nations chose to solve legal problems in different ways.
When nations come into contact with each other – they have to reconcile their laws, and inform their subjects as to international law exceptions.

Much of what is found in the early Genesis chapters applies to legality of various kinds of worship, rulers, land rights, animal rights, and the rights and duties of people/citizens. Several of the comments in Genesis are “lawyer” speak which only are true in a very narrow sense. Ancient nations, were, in a very real sense, writing up legal briefs and recording agreements and court decisions when they wrote Genesis, Gilgamesh, the Enuma elish, etc.

It’s not surprising, then, that one court would cite another one in a legal decision; or that elements of one story would be copied into another nation’s version. When the Jew’s were deported to Babylon, Babylonians and Jews (who, remember share a geographical brotherhood dating from Abraham – as Abraham’s “Ur of the Chaldees” is where Babylon would later become a nation…) – So, Babylonians and Jews had to work out what it meant that they shared a common family heritage in the past. They had to decide what laws of worship applied to whom.

That’s why its quite important to note the subtle differences between Say, the Enuma Elish and Genesis; It’s not a topic addressable in a shallow study, or just “reading” the bible, or labeling everything a “myth” and assuming no “facts” are recorded, or that “truth” may be arbitrarily carved out of these stories at anyone’s creative whim (even bishops need to be careful!).

Its a discipline where a scholar has to learn what the limitations in scope a particular statement of fact has (and its jurisdictional limits); and these stories have to be carefully cross-examined for us to recover the full importance of much of what they say. We’ve simply lost much of the interpretive key, since these decisions don’t really affect us today in the same way as they did a much older people.

Try reading the legal language of our USA courts today, and compare them to English ones of centuries bygone. Even relatively modern law is NOT simple for a non-attorney to accurately parse and understand; Courts that are over 3000 years older than ours can hardly be expected to be easier to understand!
 
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