Girl Altar Servers?

[jlw]

I dont’ think girls being on the altar has much to do with boys not wanting to serve. It’s ludicrous.

Sorry, it just is. It may not be the cheif reason, but it IS one. As a man, who used to be a boy, I was far more comfortable around my buddies than with the girl down the street. And when I did think of her…it was not out of purity (I wasn’t Catholic then, but ask any Catholic boy and it’s still the case).

The fact is that being at church does not feel like a celebration or anything that most kids want to participate in. Many have to be forced to attend kicking and screeming.

Well, the above goes to my point about parents and the culture they promulgate at home and at Mass.

The last think they want to do is getup on the altar and be coser to the priest, who in my churhc has never made any effort to even look at any of the kids he shepherds. They detest him. This was my brother’s perspective; work with him why on earth when it means even more time there and he is a jerk.

Well, that stinks!! Either a bad priest, or uncharitable parishioners?? One, the other, or both.

Hardly any kids are there. Not becuase of birth control, which amy be why there are not many famileis there with six kids.

Huh??

But becuase their families leave for churches that have pastors that understand their needs and offer guidance for their life.

I have no problem with that, per se. But after escaping the “bad” priest or parish, aren’t you still called to serve?? Or is that only if he “feels like it”?? Again, I call on the parents to catechize their “domestic church” instead of waiting for the priest to be “understanding of their needs”??

And there seems to be little for kids at mass

.

I disagree wholeheartedly!! Yes, they can’t understand everything of what is going on at an early age, but they understand quite a bit. But, most of all: They learn respect. Respect for adults, respect for quiet prayer, respect for obedience, respect for form and tradition and ritual, respect for the altar, and those allowed on it!

Most are not cathechized properly to appreciate the mystery and importance of it all. Most adults don’t even have those benefits. I would bet that churhces with great relgiious formation programs; those that have an apoproach that considers ministry to the youth more than an hour of ccd once a week has less of an issue with recruiting kids to serve on the altar.

Our parish is blessed in this regard. Great RCIA, CCD, homeschooling network…20-25 boys on the altar schedule.

Form a kid’s perspective, not fully comprehendin what goes on at mass, what joy will they derive from being closer to some old man who barely knows the needs of his parish, let alone have any connection to or ability to express himself in a homly that will appeal to the entire congregation. Abortion, abortion abortion…yeah, real helpful for kids. Not that this is not an improtant isuse. It is, but the Catholic family life has many issues that people need guidance on and many lessons it can and should be teaching. Like what goes on at mass…could we talk about that in homily once in a while to help us understand why we are here, other than becuase it is a sin not to be here.

You do make so good points, and a good priest would certainly help, but the kids first look to YOU and ME to bring the Faith to life, and the priest, even in his failings, can SUPPORT us. No?

 

[Sean.McKenzie]

katherine2:

You presume the teaching that the priesthood is reserved for males is so difficult to understand that even allowing girls to serve will give them false hope. That doesn’t speak very well to the self-evidence of this teaching. Those banning altar girls for this reason have a liberal premise to a conservative conclusion.

You misunderstand my response, once again like others, you are so quick to point fingers and to label me as having liberal views and thoughts and in fact this is just not true!. Please explain to me how my concern for girls aspirations and feelings come up liberal, i would say that you speak and point the finger so quickly that it would rather be you who are the liberal one, we who try to promote true femininity are consatntly bombarded and accused by liberal feminists. If you would at least consider what i had to say, you would find, that i am in no way trying to make woman/girls any lesser than I. We are equal but we are different!

Mt. 7: 1-5 Judge not, that you be not judged.

“For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, `Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.”

 

[netmilsmom]

Sean.McKenzie:

The word “fraternity” comes from the Middle English word ‘fraternity’ which derives from Medieval Latin ‘fraternalis’ which came from the Latin word ‘fraternus’ (brotherly) and ‘frater’ (BROTHER). Webster’s New World Dictionary defines it as:

*    1. the state or quality of being **brothers***; fraternal relationship or spirit; brotherliness

1. a group of **men **(or, rarely, women) joined together by common interests, for fellowship, etc.; specif., a Greek-letter college organization
   3. a group of people with the same beliefs, interests, work, etc. [the medical ‘fraternity’]

Thank you Sean!

 

[netmilsmom]

Mothers Boy:

Boy, what a thread. Name calling and anger, all Christian virtues. As the father of a daughter who served on the Altar, I didn’t say assist as so many have because we all assist with our participation, I told her that she was serving God and she took that seriously. When I moved to a parish that uses only boys I explained that while the Church allowed girls to serve our Pastor only allows boys and that it has helped vocations to the Priesthood. She has understood that there is a reason and accepted it. She is still at Mass and receiving the Sacraments. She also asks questions that suggest to me she is trying to find her place in the Church.
Our parish has 6 or 8 young men in the seminary and I believe this is partly due to only males serving on the altar. I think that some of the other reasons boys don’t serve is they are not encouraged. Luke warm families don’t, in my world anyway, produce priest and religious. I think families strong in their faith are the key to vocations for boys and girls. I must also say that it is a grave injustice to our Church and the Body of Christ to say “The purpose of altar servers is not to allow one gender to feel special.” I found it a bit offensive. THE PURPOSE OF ALTAR SERVERS ARE TO SERVE GOD!!! My opinion only.

God Bless you and your daughter!
Mine sing in the choir. They want for nothing more.

 

[Mothers_Boy]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

God Bless you and your daughter!
Mine sing in the choir. They want for nothing more.

Thank you, and the God’s Blessings for you and your family. I look forward to hearing your daughters sing.

 

[CARose]

Mothers Boy:

THE PURPOSE OF ALTAR SERVERS ARE TO SERVE GOD!!!

Well said, this and your entire post! Thank you. This is what I was trying to address in my post, but I think you did a better job with it.

CARose

 

[netmilsmom]

Mothers Boy:

Thank you, and the God’s Blessings for you and your family. I look forward to hearing your daughters sing.

Ah ha!
I just saw where you are!
9:30 mass, every 4th Sunday. They sang last week. The two blondes with the long braids. They look like twins (and it helps that I dress them alike) but are 2 1/2 years apart.
Does your daughter sing as well?
Aren’t we just soooo blessed to be where we are?

 

[cyprian]

Sean.McKenzie:

You misunderstand my response, once again like others, you are so quick to point fingers and to label me as having liberal views and thoughts and in fact this is just not true!. Please explain to me how my concern for girls aspirations and feelings come up liberal, i would say that you speak and point the finger so quickly that it would rather be you who are the liberal one, we who try to promote true femininity are consatntly bombarded and accused by liberal feminists. If you would at least consider what i had to say, you would find, that i am in no way trying to make woman/girls any lesser than I. We are equal but we are different!

Mt. 7: 1-5 Judge not, that you be not judged.

“For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, `Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.”

True femininity1 Amen! I’m all for it. The problem is de-feminizing feminism so that women can be feminine. Read Alice von Hildebrand… a true feminists feminist!!

He is All for All in All
I am nothing

 

[Catholic2003]

fix:

So you admit a few took a private initiative, foisted it on the many and the Vatican allowed it years later.

Before 1983, female altar servers were not permitted. Not coincidentally, the Vatican responded quite forcefully to the few parishes where this rule was being ignored:

Inaestimabile Donum (1980) - There are, of course, various roles that women can perform in the liturgical assembly: these include reading the Word of God and proclaiming the intentions of the Prayer of the Faithful. Women are not, however, permitted to act as altar servers.

Liturgicae Instaurationes (1970) - In conformity with norms traditional in the Church, women (single, married, religious), whether in churches, homes, convents, schools, or institutions for women, are barred from serving the priest at the altar.

After 1983, the Vatican did not issue any documents condemning female altar servers, despite their now widespread use resulting from the approval given from canon lawyers. I don’t think this is a coincidence either.

The records of the 1978 meeting of pontifical committee that voted on canon 230 §2 indicate that the removal of the “male only” requirement had everything to do with the understanding that women were no longer prohibited from being in the sanctuary, and nothing at all to do with the desire to “roll over and play dead” in response to combating liturgical abuse.

 

[fix]

Catholic2003:

Before 1983, female altar servers were not permitted. Not coincidentally, the Vatican responded quite forcefully to the few parishes where this rule was being ignored:

Inaestimabile Donum (1980) - There are, of course, various roles that women can perform in the liturgical assembly: these include reading the Word of God and proclaiming the intentions of the Prayer of the Faithful. Women are not, however, permitted to act as altar servers.

Liturgicae Instaurationes (1970) - In conformity with norms traditional in the Church, women (single, married, religious), whether in churches, homes, convents, schools, or institutions for women, are barred from serving the priest at the altar.

After 1983, the Vatican did not issue any documents condemning female altar servers, despite their now widespread use resulting from the approval given from canon lawyers. I don’t think this is a coincidence either.

The records of the 1978 meeting of pontifical committee that voted on canon 230 §2 indicate that the removal of the “male only” requirement had everything to do with the understanding that women were no longer prohibited from being in the sanctuary, and nothing at all to do with the desire to “roll over and play dead” in response to combating liturgical abuse.

Are you arguing the Vatican initiated the use of female servers or encouraged them? A few canon lawyers and others, IMO, with a liberal agenda, initiated their use. Many did not like it. Years went by. Rome was asked to rule if it was licit. They said it can be done, but did not say it must be done. They sepcefically said no one has a right to serve. They left it up to each bishop and even then each priest may reject them if he desires. All this says that the law was scrutunized do see if they could get away with it. They did. It was their personal initiative, not an idea from Rome. Not unlike the hand holding business, the law does not specfically prohibit it, so some take it as a green light to introduce novelty upon novelty.

 

[Kielbasi]

There is no doctrinal reason as to why girls can’t be altar servers.

But there are practical reasons why they should be allowed. The young ladies may have a calling to become readers/EMHC’s or other details which will be needed in the future. I can see this already, women who were altar girls as teenagers in the 80s are moving into different roles today 20 years later.

I’m not so sure they would have had they not been encouraged in altar service.

I can be appreciative of the fact that not all parishes have many EHMC’s or lectors, or permit women into these roles, and don’t feel that they have to. But dealing with reality would indicate most need to be concerned about it.

 

[Catholic2003]

fix:

Are you arguing the Vatican initiated the use of female servers or encouraged them?

Pope John Paul II promulgated the 1983 Code of Canon Law, which deliberately removed the “male only” restriction from a variety of liturgical roles, including altar server. The pope spent over a year reviewing the draft code (which was the effort of twenty years of work) with several of his most trusted canon law advisors, and he made hundreds of changes to produce the final version. The few mistakes that made it past this process were quickly corrected within the first year or year and a half.

The idea that the 1983 canon law permission for female altar servers was some sort of “accident” is just wishful thinking on the part of traditionalists.

fix:

A few canon lawyers and others, IMO, with a liberal agenda, initiated their use. Many did not like it.

Nearly all canon lawyers interpreted the 1983 code as allowing female altar servers, even those who did not think it was a good idea. I know it’s a novel idea for many posters here, but canon lawyers seem to understand the concept that the Vatican makes the rules and the rest of us follow them.

 

[Deacon_Tony560]

Review Acts 1: 13-26 and Acts 2 :1-4. Especially Acts 1: 13-14. The apostles were not alone in the upper room. Mary was there and as the Gospel says; other women. It seems some on this site would have Mary and the other women wait outside.

Deacon Tony

 

[INRI]

There is no doctrinal reason as to why girls can’t be altar servers.

But there are practical reasons why they should be allowed. The young ladies may have a calling to become readers/EMHC’s or other details which will be needed in the future. I can see this already, women who were altar girls as teenagers in the 80s are moving into different roles today 20 years later.

I’m not so sure they would have had they not been encouraged in altar service.

I can be appreciative of the fact that not all parishes have many EHMC’s or lectors, or permit women into these roles, and don’t feel that they have to. But dealing with reality would indicate most need to be concerned about it.

We don’t have an issue with getting enough women to be interested in being readers/EMHC’s, we have a problem with getting enough MEN interested. I realize that this may be a topic for an additional thread, but EMHC’s should only be used in EXTRAORDINARY circumstances, hence their name EXTRAORDINARY ministers of the eucharist. In fact, if there are other priests on the premises, even if they are not saying mass, they should come out to help distribute communion. Perhaps someone versed in canon law could help me, but I think there is even a canon in canon law or in the GIRM to that effect. That means the pastor needs to get himself off his lazy a** in the rectory and help with communion. At my parish, the priests do this since the parish is small enough that there really isn’t an excuse to use EHMC’s. IMO, having laypeople doing the readings is just to give laypeople a sense that they are “actively participating”, an abuse of the sense of the word in Sacrosanctum Concilium. They are not needed to do the readings.

I apologize if it seemed in my earlier post way back that I was implying that the shortage of vocations was due solely to female altar servers. Vocations come when you have holy priests and bishops. What I meant in my last post is that female altar servers do not HELP the vocations crisis.

 

[Kielbasi]

but EMHC’s should only be used in EXTRAORDINARY circumstances, hence their name EXTRAORDINARY ministers of the eucharist. In fact, if there are other priests on the premises, even if they are not saying mass, they should come out to help distribute communion.

That’s true enough, in theory of course. Many years ago, that’s exactly what happened, the other priests in the parish would come out of the rectory or back room of the church at the appropriate time to distribute communion.

But, back in the 60s, of course, (1)usually less than a quarter of Catholics at Sunday mass received communion during an ordinary week as opposed to 90%+ in 2005 , (2) they did not receive communion in both kinds, (3) there were a lot more priests, parishes that have just 2 priests today might have had 4 during the 60s.

I think the “extraordinary circumstance” is the extraordinary changes which have come down in recent decades.

 

[katherine2]

fix:

So you admit a few took a private initiative, foisted it on the many and the Vatican allowed it years later.

the sequence would be as follows.

1. the idea was proposed by some faithful Catholics based on what they thought best for the welfare of the Church.
2. Most proponets complied with the norms, a handful did not
3. Those not following the norms were at no time in a postion to “foist” anything on the universal church
4. The Church determined the proposers were correct and permitted this practice under the guidelines they issued.

 

[katherine2]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

How wonderfully Christian of you!

I posted an article, you disagreed with it, you gave no reference to facts that showed it was wrong and then suggest that I have a lack of integrity. Hmmmm.

The reference to the one opponent is the person in the quote you posted who made the statement. I’ve only questioned your intergrity if you are now saying you were quoting yourself.

I’ve given evidence that the post included a false claim, you simply refuse to either accept or refute it.

 

[netmilsmom]

Deacon Tony560:

Review Acts 1: 13-26 and Acts 2 :1-4. Especially Acts 1: 13-14. The apostles were not alone in the upper room. Mary was there and as the Gospel says; other women. It seems some on this site would have Mary and the other women wait outside.

Deacon Tony

Here is your passage…
"13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.

14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren."

No one on this site is suggesting that we exclude women from the Holy Mass.

But what about the women here?
Luke 22:7-23

“The Last Supper
7 Then came the day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed.
8Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, “Go and make preparations for us to eat the Passover.”
9 “Where do you want us to prepare for it?” they asked.
10 He replied, “As you enter the city, a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him to the house that he enters,
11 and say to the owner of the house, ‘The Teacher asks: Where is the guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?’
12 He will show you a large upper room, all furnished. Make preparations there.”
13 They left and found things just as Jesus had told them. So they prepared the Passover.
14 When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table. 15And he said to them, “I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. 16For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God.”
17 After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, “Take this and divide it among you.
18 For I tell you I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”
19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”
20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.
21 But the hand of him who is going to betray me is with mine on the table.
22 The Son of Man will go as it has been decreed, but woe to that man who betrays him.”
23 They began to question among themselves which of them it might be who would do this.”

 

[netmilsmom]

katherine2:

The reference to the one opponent is the person in the quote you posted who made the statement. I’ve only questioned your intergrity if you are now saying you were quoting yourself.

I’ve given evidence that the post included a false claim, you simply refuse to either accept or refute it.

You gave no reference to prove it was a false claim, just your opinion.
I’m sorry but I cannot discuss with a person who only goes by feelings and will not give any back-up data.
Over and above that, if someone gets to the point of personal slurs, I refuse to go any farther.

 

[katherine2]

jlw:

Sorry, it just is. It may not be the cheif reason, but it IS one. As a man, who used to be a boy, I was far more comfortable around my buddies than with the girl down the street. And when I did think of her…it was not out of purity (I wasn’t Catholic then, but ask any Catholic boy and it’s still the case).

I’m sorry, that just doesn’t fly. Its a psycho-social observation not a theological principle whcih at best woudl simply affirm the current norm of allowing the parish priest to use his judgement.

If it is true, it is not something unique to altar service. Yet we have Catholic co-education (and single sex education, but like altar service, not dicated by a universal norm but decided locally). We have mixed CCD, Bible study, choirs, etc.

It has the same weakness as those who argue against the sign of peace because they say shaking hands spreads germs yet never raise an objection to hand shaking as a social practice outside of Mass. Catholics are not particularly germ infested people!